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Thread: Permanente Trail

  1. #1

    Default Permanente Trail

    Went up to Permanente Trail today. A little bit of snow further back but all passable. Made it all the way to the Creek (I believe it's Quartz Creek) and was even able to get across the creek. Couldn't find the trail on the other side though. 75 degrees and decent trail conditions - couldn't beat it for the first ride away from Knik.

    When we got back to the truck one of the local residents stopped us. She lives up the road above the Permanente trailhead and said she heard an ATV in front of the house around 11:30am and then a gun shot and then she found her dog shot. They never saw the ATV rider. The dog could not be saved.

    This sort of thing really puts a bad taste in people's mouths and further risks our future in ATV riding. If ATV riders keep damaging their cause it is going to ruin it for the rest of us who take pride in our sport. There are a lot of us that love ATV riding because it gives us an opportunity to see parts of this beautiful State that so few do. There are a lot of great trails out there and a lot of us that take care of them and respect nature. Too bad there are a few that give the sport a black eye.

    Please remember that above the Permanente Trailhead is private land. There is no need to go further up the side road past the trailhead.

  2. #2
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    Default Lots of loosers

    That type of behavior seems to be prelevant around that area. Was at Kings River trail and a local woman came up to me and was "nicely" checking me out. Apparently they have had a string of robberies around the area and people leaving their trash and rv sewage dumped in their area. Permente is not to far from this area either. I wonder if this is all related? Regardless we should all keep our ears and eyes out for these type of people. In this area the troopers are involved and some of the older people are very worried and everyone is packing now. Please don't be upset if locals are checking you out on the trail they have valid concerns, due to recent activities, and lets help them to turn these low lives in.

    Happy Trails

  3. #3
    Member EricL's Avatar
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    Default

    Unfortunately, I feel that alot of these issues are being caused by "locals" in that area. Some folks always want to blame the guy that traveled to ride there but there are issues caused by the folks that live right there also.
    EricL

  4. #4
    Member Rich_in_AK's Avatar
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    Default

    Of course we don't know all the details of what happened with the dog, just the woman's point of view. It could have been a situation where a local rider was always attacked by a viscious loose dog as he rides down the road on public property, and maybe he got fed up with it and decided to defend himself for a change. I really find it hard to believe that an ATV rider from out of the area was riding by and decided to just shoot a dog for no reason. You can be sure though that this story will get out to all the ATV haters and they will only hear the first account.

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    Default

    I would agree with EricL that some of the problems are local,But the robbery problems have come from Anchorage in the last few years I can personaly attest to that,and two springs ago it was NOT LOCALS that nearly burned the Kings trailhead down,and this morning at Moose creek a DUMB ASS left a camp fire burning and left and the fire department had to go and put it out and I can guarantee you that wasnt a local.and a few years ago it wasnt a local that dumped a body in my back yard,you might not like us here Eric because we dont go buy your Big city rules.

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    Default Doesn't matter

    IT really doesn't matter where these low lives are from. THe fact is they are putting a scar on a well used trail for outsiders and property and land of locals. Instead of fighting over where the low life or lives are from we should work together and get rid of this crap. THis type of behavior is unacceptable whether you are from Kings River, Anchorage, Fairbanks, or anywhere.

    So stop bickering over this stupid crap and lets figure out a way to stop this behavior. Or just keep doing the same crap and these other people will keep violating people's property, destroy the landscape, and get the trails closed for everyone. Then you can all fight over whos fault that is.

  7. #7

    Default I agree

    Well said PT!!!!!

  8. #8
    Member Noble Killer's Avatar
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    Default Permanenti Trail

    The trail is all private property until almost to the intersection of the kings river trail about 3.5 miles in from the highway.

    As far as the dog being shot, this lady is my neighbor and the dogs in question were not aggressive at all. There is absolutely no reason anyone that does not own property up there should be up the road past the trailhead. Where the trailhead leaves the Permanenti Rd it is very well marked with signs stating private road.

    I dont mind people using the trail and area but respect the private property in the area. Hell respect the public land in the area also. And yes there are alot of gun-shy people in the area that are packing and are not afraid to use them. Just ask ADN, the paper doesnt hardly get delivered in the area anymore due to the paper boy being met in driveways at the end of a barrel.

    With that being said, use and enjoy the area, respect private property, and dont go out of your way to piss off the locals by tresspassing and killing their animals.

  9. #9
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    Default

    I agree with Rich. Without a doubt the dogs were loose and took off to chase an ATV. I dont think they were found dead on their chains on the porch now were they? This is about an irresponsible pet owner trying to blame ATV for her neglect. Chain up your dogs or lose them is the answer here. People have a right to walk, run, ride and drive up the road without being chase by her dogs for heavens sake.....
    I come home with an honestly earned feeling that something good has taken place. It makes no difference whether I got anything, it has to do with how the day was spent. Fred Bear

  10. #10
    Member EagleRiverDee's Avatar
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    Default I disagree.

    A property owner that lives that far out ought to be able to have their own dogs run loose on their property that is clearly marked "Private Land" without worrying about a trespassing ATV rider taking a pot-shot and killing their dog. No "leash law" is going to override the fact that someone was trespassing and very likely is guilty of illegally discharging a firearm and animal cruelty.

    Don't blame this on the property owner or her dogs. Whoever did this has created a bad situation between a property owner and anyone who rides an ATV out there. I was one of the people she stopped asking questions. And I understand her anger. If we ATV riders don't ride herd on any bad apples we may have, we are giving people an excuse to shut down more trails which is bad for all of us.

  11. #11

    Default

    Her dogs need to be chained or leashed when they are not on her property, other than that they can run around loose all they want.

  12. #12
    Member TWB's Avatar
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    I invested in a wireless fence...my labs have never crossed the driveway unless on a leash. Problem solved.
    We do not go to the green woods and crystal waters to rough it, we go to smooth it. We get it rough enough at home; in towns and cities; in shops, offices, stores, banks anywhere that we may be placed

  13. #13
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    Default

    so what Im getting from a couple of you guys is that if the dogs are not on a leash or on private property they should be shot. so the next time there is a dog on the trail walking with the owner not on a leash or running around a camp site or swimming in the water after a duck I can just shoot them.the only reason those dogs would have barked was that the atv was up the driveway towards the house.

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    Smile tie them up

    Well, Jfloat despite your profane pms you do need to consider other points of view. If the dogs are unleashed there is no way to keep them on the property and keep them or others safe. They will chase or kill wildlife, chase or bite people, get hit by cars or vehicles, get killed by bears or injured by porkys, etc. Its just irresponsible to let your dogs run loose. Do them a favor and keep them safe and tie them up!!! I dont think anyone would shoot a dog that was walking with their owner or acting friendly. But the problem is dogs are protective and naturally bark and attack someone or something that gets near their property or their owner or is unfamiliar so they need to be restrained.
    I come home with an honestly earned feeling that something good has taken place. It makes no difference whether I got anything, it has to do with how the day was spent. Fred Bear

  15. #15
    Member Noble Killer's Avatar
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    Default

    Sollybug, do you even know where this place is? Have you ever been there? Probably not, so you dont even know what this area is like, and you are trying to put in your 2 cents. Maybe you should keep your 2 cents in your pocket until you know what you are talking about.

    This Family that had their dog shot lives remote and has minimal neighbors, (me being one which I live about 3 miles away) we all look out for each other out there. I own property that borders this family and have riden my wheeler up to my property more than a 100 times. I have to cross their property to get to mine and not once have I ever had a problem with their dogs. I have been to their house and not had a problem with their dogs (actually quite friendly). So should their dogs be chained up when these people own hundreds of acres of land, and being that far removed from the general public? I think NOT!!!

    And one more thing, They are is not blaming ATV riders for this, it is being blamed on some punk that does not know how to respect others or others property (dog being included) nobody in that area minds the trail being used. The parking lot at the bottom of the hill is private property as for the entire trail in for about 3.5 miles. until you reach the king river trail intersection. All anybody in the area asks is that you respect it, dont tear stuff up, leave your trash for somebody else, tresspass, or kill our animals.

  16. #16
    Member EagleRiverDee's Avatar
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    Noble has it right on.

    The dog was on PRIVATE PROPERTY.

    The person who shot the dog was trespassing and did not bother to stick around. People that actually know what they are talking about have made it clear that the dog in question was not aggressive. Certainly if there was a legal reason to shoot that dog, the person who did it would have stuck around to explain...right? Only a lawbreaker would run away.

    Why anyone here would defend the person who committed this crime is beyond me. We ATV riders do NOT have the right to trespass and we do not have the right to shoot a dog simply because it is loose on private property we have no business being on anyway- it is CLEARLY posted that the property above the trailhead is Private. We are fortunate that the local property owners allow us to access the trail at all and we should respect their wishes that we stay off the land above the trailhead.

  17. #17
    Member Noble Killer's Avatar
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    Default

    Thanks Dee, Enjoy the area to the fullest. Maybe I'll run into you up there someday.

  18. #18

    Default

    I never said the dog should be shot jfloat, read my post again bud. Any dog that runs loose takes the risk of being shot and if I see a dog or dogs chasing a moose or caribou or whatever then I feel it is my responsibility to do something about it. Some of you say that the person that shot this dog trespassed yet nobody know's who did it or even saw anyone do it. I am a dog lover and have 2 myself and I would be devistated if someone shot 1 or both of them but it is my responsibility to make sure they are always under my control.

  19. #19
    Member TWB's Avatar
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    It takes a real ***** to shoot another person's dog, period. If they were trespassing, well they were dead wrong. Last summer we spent 500+ miles on the trails , with the dogs with us, not once did we ever hit private property, our dogs were always with us and we never bothered anyone. And we ran the Perm/Ruby area every few weeks.

    Sometimes have to take precautions form both sides. I live in Wasilla and regularly have ATV's running down my road not to mention the punk kids, so I keep my dogs in the yard as a preventative measure.

    You will always find folks who simply don't give a ****, sad but true. Some folks just want to see the world burn.
    We do not go to the green woods and crystal waters to rough it, we go to smooth it. We get it rough enough at home; in towns and cities; in shops, offices, stores, banks anywhere that we may be placed

  20. #20
    Member EagleRiverDee's Avatar
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    Noble-

    You're welcome. I think that you folks that live up there have been very generous to ATV riders and I do get upset when I see people arguing for disrespecting private property because at some point we will all lose access to certain trails because of that attitude. Jim Creek will likely be the first to go.

    As an aside- since you are a local - do you know if the Permanente trail continues beyond mile 12 or so? We have made a serious effort to find the continuance which shows up on maps but we can't find it in person. We even managed to cross the river last week and didn't find anything on the other side either.

    Is it just overgrown and un-rideable now, are we looking in the wrong spot, or is the map just flat wrong?

    Any insight would be appreciated.

    Thanks!
    "If snowmachiners would adopt the habits of riding one at a time and not parking at the base of avalanche prone slopes, the number of fatalities would likely be whittled by at least a third, if not by half." ~ Jill Fredston, in the book Snowstruck, In The Grip Of Avalanches.

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