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Thread: State welfare program for guides.

  1. #1

    Default State welfare program for guides.

    DON'T OVERLOOK THE FACT THAT THE ALASKA PROFESSIONAL HUNTERS ASSOCIATION INCORPORATED IS THE 'ONLY' HUNTING ORGANIZATION PUSHING THIS STATE LANDS CONCESSIONS PROGRAM.




    Public Notices
    Big Game Commercial Services Board
    Submitted by: lmbrown2/08
    Date Submitted: 04/10/2009 03:26 PM
    Date Modified:
    Ak Admin Journal: [not printed]

    • Attachments: No files attached

    Look guys. DNR is asking for $370K to fund a program that promises to subsideze the commercial hunting industry for ever. We don't need this program to fix our problems. In fact, it wont fix any problems. It will be good for about 20-30 guides and that is it.

    The NPS estimates that the actual cost of administering each individual commercial hunting concessions contract on Park lands costs the US tax payer $30K. The state thinks they can do the same thing for 10% of the cost?

    NO WAY is state government THAT much more efficient or less 'regulatory' or have less compliance standards and administrative costs than the federal agencies.

    Clark Cox at DNR has asked the PS for their actual costs ($30K per contract) so it is on the record...not off the record.

    DNR can develop maps, go through a state wide public comment process, develop contracts that are not based on who will pay the state the most money but who writes the purdiest or who knows who and then; go to bid, evaluate bids, issue bids, go through untold numbers of administrative appeals that actually cost the State about 20K per appeal, probably be required to defend the program in court, administer the contracts and do all that for less than 3k per contract WHEN they know the PS is spending close to 30k per contract for a program that has been established for 17 years.

    This is why we have problems with government. Special interest lobby for something that subsidizes their product or their industry and the government goes along with it and then tries to sell it to the public as a 'good deal' for everybody.

    We pay....people like Clark Cox...they are supposed to look after the public interest but due to the special interest influence and political winds they are forced to tweak the numbers and pretend this is a good public interest project worthy of public subsidiary.

    This STATE LANDS program needs to go away and we need to find other ways to deal with our problems.

    The BEST way is go to a state wide non-resident 10% opportunity draw and go from there....that way we (the state) could actually benefit instead of providing public resources (our game and our money) to subsidize and industry that profits from taking.

    IF you really are an Alaskan first and a hunter....get involved with stopping this well fare program for guides and start pushing the non-resident 10% opportunity law.


    Big Game Commercial Services Board





    Body of Notice:
    BIG GAME COMMERCIAL SERVICES BOARD. The Board will hold teleconferences from 10:00-11:00 a.m. on 4/16/09, 4/30/09, 5/14/09, 5/28/09, 6/11/09, 6/25/09, 7/9/09 & 7/23/09 for the purpose of reconvening the State Lands subcommittee. Individuals interested in additional information may call (907) 465-2543 or (907) 465-2691.
    Revision History:
    04/10/2009 03:26:15 PM by lmbrown2/08/State/Alaska/US


  2. #2
    Member AlaskaTrueAdventure's Avatar
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    Default Agreeing....

    AVALANCHE, Guides, hunters...

    Again I find myself agreeing with you, AVALANCHE, more that disagreeing.
    The Alaska Professinal Hunters Association Executive Director, Bobby Fifthian, and the APHA boraad of directors is the only group supporting this DNR Guide Concession Area concept. While a small number of their "profesional members" also support it, a great many do not support it. I know this because 17 members of that organization have contacted me, and that includes one member of the DNR Concession sub-committee! Fifteen of those who have contacted me are 100% against it, as I am. Two of those who contacted me are still "on the fence" but leaning towards Not supporting the plan.

    Clearly, the APHA Executive Director and the APHA BOD are out of touch with their own organization. And I again would like to indicate that I object to it because I do not believe it can be or will be fairly developed and honestly implimented without favoritism toward some, and without prejudice against others.

    After listening to eight hours of teleconference planning sessions, I did not hear the beautiful minds of the sub-committee come up with many questions that would result in answeres that were quantifyable, measureable, and most important of all- VERIFYABLE.
    The only questions and answers that could meet those points were 1) how long have you been a registered or master guide-outfitter, and 2) do you have any state or federal wildlife or guide violation do you have. The vast majority of those eight hours of teleconference meeting resulted in questioins whose answeres can be easily counterfeited, backdated, made-up, or lied about. The prospectus-application developed will be little more that a creative writing exercise. And believe this, no guide-outffitter will be able to comlete this deal with a #2 pencil. Most guides will end up employing the services of a professional advertising agency to complete this deal with the sizzle and buzz words required to dress up an otherwise "standard application". I will not, but I know a few guides that have already initiated the services of professional writers.

    Let me site a recent example of how a guide, in this case APHA Executive Director Bobby Fifthian, can and did make statements that were not true so he could unjustly further his organizations agenda....

    Within the BGCSB meeting minutes held in Anchorage in Dec 2008, Page 10, Mr Paul Johnson (BGCSB Chairman) is quoted as asking Mr Fifthian about recent support for the DNR Concession Area plan. MR Fifthian is quoted as responding that 90%+ of the APHA member support it, as determined through voteing.

    First of all, as I mentioned above, I have been contacted by 15 members against the concept, and 2 who are undecided. Of the 140 members of that organization, I have already been contacted by more than 10% who object to it!

    But more important, the APHA has not conducted a recent vote concerning this concession concept. They absolutely have not done it withing the last three years, the three years that I was a professional member. And I have attended every annual meeting for the last 12 years. There has never been a vote or a "show of hands vote" at these meetings. And I spoke with three other long-time pro members, one of which does support it, and they do not remember a vote of any type in the last 10 years. Clearly, this 90%+ figure and the imaginary vote were products of Mr Fifthians mind.

    So let me say this again...The BGCSB Chairman, Mr Paul Johnson, asked the APHA Exec Director, Mr Fifthian, a question....and Mr Fifithian answered with an untrue answere, and backed up his "make-believe" answere with a vote that had never happened. What is that called? That is called a lie.

    In front of the BGCSB, its chairman, approx 200 guide-outfitters, including licensing examiner Karl Marx and DNRs Clark Cox...Mr Fifthian told an untrue statement, a lie, in order to increase influence with the BGCSB and to further his own agenda.

    This is another example of why I do not believe the DNR Guide Concession Area plan can be fairly planned and honestly implemented without favoritism for some and prejudice against others.

    AVALANCHE...Thanks for posting the future dates of the public teleconference meetings. Because somehow, these public meeting have not otherwise been posted very well for the public.

    Rebuttal, anybody?

    Dennis
    Registered Guide-Outfitter #1056.
    AK TAGSA

  3. #3
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    Default

    Oh my!!! Welfare!!
    Its only for "bums" , the lazy and crack smoking apartment dwellers in Mt.view, aint it???

    LOL!!, so it seems the guide industry has hard times too....just like selling Art, the "Big trip" gets cut when times are tough..

    "Welfare"......dont you think that the guides have brought in a lot of $$$$ into the State should get a bit of financial help in tough times...???

    Naaaaaaaaaa read the fine print, the F'n Lawyers are getting it all.......
    If you can't Kill it with a 30-06, you should Hide.

    "Dam it all", The Beaver told me.....

  4. #4

    Default Meeting in 15 minutes....

    call in for the below listed meetings is:

    1-800-315-6338 when prompted enter 133# meetings are scheduled from:

    10:00-11:00 a.m. on 4/16/09, 4/30/09, 5/14/09, 5/28/09, 6/11/09, 6/25/09, 7/9/09 & 7/23/09


  5. #5

    Default I am calling in

    Quote Originally Posted by AVALANCHE View Post
    call in for the below listed meetings is:

    1-800-315-6338 when prompted enter 133# meetings are scheduled from:

    10:00-11:00 a.m. on 4/16/09, 4/30/09, 5/14/09, 5/28/09, 6/11/09, 6/25/09, 7/9/09 & 7/23/09

    I am calling in, hope to not get interrupted.
    Marc Theiler

  6. #6
    Member Vince's Avatar
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    Default

    just tried... but god awful conection and my little one is screaming so.... not such good idea..
    "If you are on a continuous search to be offended, you will always find what you are looking for; even when it isn't there."

    meet on face book here

  7. #7
    Member AlaskaTrueAdventure's Avatar
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    Default Avalanche

    Avalanche,
    clear out some space in your pm box.

  8. #8

    Default ok buddy...

    Done deal fire at will!


  9. #9
    Member Vince's Avatar
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    Default

    Ruught OOOh shaggy!!!!!!!
    "If you are on a continuous search to be offended, you will always find what you are looking for; even when it isn't there."

    meet on face book here

  10. #10

    Default Update???

    How about a briefing on the last two meetings with ****** and the boys from APHA....??? I missed em!


  11. #11
    Member AlaskaTrueAdventure's Avatar
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    Default yep

    Roger-that, will-co asap, time permitting...(fri) , dennis

  12. #12
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    Default Recent / future teleconf

    First I called it ProspectusGate...
    Now, I call it the beginnings of a civil war among guides...quite a legacy for todays guide-outfitter industry.

    Hello guide-outfitters and interested members of the public,
    .... the next scheduled teleconference concerning the DNR Guide Use Area Concession plan will be on Thursday, 4/30/09, at 10:00AM.

    Dial in at 1 800 315-6338...#133, when prompted.

    I have attempted to sit down and write out the highlights of the last teleconference, but there really have not been any highlights.

    Two weeks ago, the only possible highlight was a verbal exchange 'tween the BGCSB subcommittee chairman, Mr Fithian, and myself.
    Mr Fithian indicated that this deal had been, and has been supported "by most guides" through their agreement (as in lack of obvious objections) at APHA and BGCSB meetings. I pointed out that these meeting did not constitute a credible vote, and that there had not been a vote in any credible fashion in many years, probably never in the past. I added that what he interpreted as a positive vote, or compliance with his program, would most accurately be interpreted as an actual date-rape.

    I would like to add that at these meetings very few people actively objected because nobody believed this deal would make it this far. To most observers, it simply seemed easier to "lay there and take it", as opposed to the struggle that active and verbally expressed opposition would lead to. Mr Fithian evidently did not agree with this clear analogy and sounded shaken. Oh well. It's true.

    In fact, there have been guide-outfitters such as myself who have voiced objections and opposition while at these meeting. Mr Fithian and ?__________? (fill in the blank with your best guess) have simply decided to ignore the opposition so they could further their own political agenda.

    There were no other reportable highlights.

    Next teleconference meeting at 10:00AM, Thursday, 4/30/09.
    Tele # 1 800 315-6338, when prompted #133...as reported in post #4, above.

    Dennis
    AK TAGS

  13. #13

    Default ****** meets AVALANCHE...

    I'll be there!


  14. #14
    Member AlaskaTrueAdventure's Avatar
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    Question APHA Leadership Meets AV?

    ...through the miracle of telecommunications? ...in a train wreck? ...in court?

  15. #15
    Member bushrat's Avatar
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    Default

    Just want to say thanks for the updates and hope you guys keep us all informed on what's going on (from all sides and perspectives).

    Does anyone know whether or not in the final days of the legislative session DNR got the 300grand or so to pay for this whole shebang?
    Thanks,

  16. #16
    Member AlaskaTrueAdventure's Avatar
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    Default 50K

    I understand the current funding was capped at 50K. Perhaps more info will be discussed and released soon, 10:00 AM, Thursday teleconference.
    Dennis

  17. #17
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    Thumbs down Concession Obsessions

    The conference on 4-30-09 was mostly uneventful. Although the background music was at times distracting, the Godfather and his Consiglieri progressed with this plan to further divide the guide-family, and to eliminate approximately 1/3 of the competition.

    2011 could be a bad year for approximately 100 to 150 of the current honest and hard working guide-outfitter service providers who have done nothing wrong, except (for whatever reason) they were not in business a decade earlier/sooner.

    After listening to these concession obsession progressions, the more clear it appears that I am a guide without a tribe.

    If you are a guide (or anybody) who has an objection to the consequences of this concession obsession progression, then Clark at DNR needs to hear from you. PM me for his telephone number.

    Rebuttal?
    Advise?
    Like the rhymes?

    dennis
    ak tags

    Does my objections to these concession obsession progressions make me look like a big butt?

  18. #18

    Default

    "...a guide without a tribe..."?, not hardly. There are a fair number of guides that, at least in private conversations support regulatory alternatives to the implementation of the concession system. Unfortunately, few have been willing to testify as to their support of these proposals in the past. Whether the younger guides feel "intimidated?" or somehow hold out hoping they will be successful with whatever system if finally implemented I don't know.
    At the spring BGCSB meeting in Fairbanks I expressed my concerns as did several others, about the proposed concession system. However, we certainly were in the minority.
    The regulatory alternatives would certainly curtail some of the current practices regarding the use of aircraft and in some cases the use of snow machines and /or four wheelers. This is not to suggest these methods of transportation should be eliminated from hunting - it does mean that flying around; spotting game - then landing and being able to shoot at 3am the following day would be prohibited as would following game for three of four days with four wheelers or snow machines then killing it would also be stopped.
    Joe (Ak)
    Quote Originally Posted by AlaskaTrueAdventure View Post
    The conference on 4-30-09 was mostly uneventful. Although the background music was at times distracting, the Godfather and his Consiglieri progressed with this plan to further divide the guide-family, and to eliminate approximately 1/3 of the competition.

    2011 could be a bad year for approximately 100 to 150 of the current honest and hard working guide-outfitter service providers who have done nothing wrong, except (for whatever reason) they were not in business a decade earlier/sooner.

    After listening to these concession obsession progressions, the more clear it appears that I am a guide without a tribe.

    If you are a guide (or anybody) who has an objection to the consequences of this concession obsession progression, then Clark at DNR needs to hear from you. PM me for his telephone number.

    Rebuttal?
    Advise?
    Like the rhymes?

    dennis
    ak tags

    Does my objections to these concession obsession progressions make me look like a big butt?

  19. #19
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    Default Guide W/o a tribe...

    Wantj43,
    I agree that there is a loose-knik group of DNR Concession Plan objection minded guides out there. And I agree that, unfortunately, few have been willing to testify or voice their support, or non-support of these upcoming changes.

    I agree with what you wrote because, as a result of just these management forum threads, I have received 18 calls from APHA members who do not support the DNR Concession plan as currently proposed. All, and this is where I get upset, and asked to remain an anonymous.

    Some fear the Godfather, Paul.
    Some fear the Consigliei, Bob F.
    Some fear DNR.

    The single call I have received in support of this upcoming program was from Paul J. While politically sympathetic, he mostly- no, he completely- minimized and trivialized virtually everything positive I commented on concerning smaller and newer guide-outfitters and/or myself. He explained to me how I should "take one for the team/tribe", although there is scant little chance of remaining on the team. When this message comes directly from the Godfather himself, one begins to feel like a guide without a tribe.

    I'll continue to participate in the teleconferences to attempt to keep up with this tribal excommunication ....but must return to work at this time...

    Guides, guide-outfitters (especially the completely honest and legal ones!!!), hunters? need to express their views and beliefs to DNR Clark ASAP, or 2011 is going to be a bad year. Email or PM me to discuss this topic and/or to obtain the telephone number for DNR Clark.

    Dennis
    Alaska True Adventure Guide Service

  20. #20
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    Default

    even if they stepped out and enforced the laws we have already and the ethics the guide regs have, they'd cut out about 1/3 of the guides without having to do the concession stuff. makin' laws they can't efforce is a waste of time and money and brings us to the concession stuff.
    If guides would actually sit down and talk, rather than stand up and yell...we might not have quiet the issue we have now. But since a few of the guys who had the orginal state land areas refer to everything as 'theirs", we've become a territorial industry. And admited who wants to have neighbors when your trying to work? but some simple converstaion would help to create a few buffers with guys to avoid the overcrowdin' issues in SOME areas.
    If i recal Joe aren't you the one that suggested you could fly to camp but not hunt for 3 days or something along those lines? I can't remember all you said, was hard to hear some of the quieter voices from the back.
    Www.blackriverhunting.com
    Master guide 212

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