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Thread: Why Community Harvest ("slaughter") Permits must go!

  1. #1

    Default Why Community Harvest ("slaughter") Permits must go!

    OK, I’ve had a lot of calls, emails, and questions, that I’d like to answer for everyone:

    The ADFG and Ahtna Native closed-door meeting prior to the BOG meeting in Anchorage, denied all others notice and opportunity to attend. A violation of the Administrative Procedures Act, Open Public Meetings policy. You can not make regulations behind closed doors! And who would of thought a closed door meeting with ADFG and Ahtna Natives would result in proposed regulations that gave 300+ permits right of the top to 8 Ahtna Native villages – no questions asked (i.e., NO qualifying subsistence questions contrary to the enabling statute AS 16.04.258), and everyone else gets put into the once every four years lottery!

    First, the new proposed Unit 13 Tier II regs do away with Tier II longtime customary and traditional hunting rights (5 AAC 92.070). Instead they impose an automatic granting of 300+ permits for the 8 Ahtna native villages under Community Harvest Subsistence Permits. (5 AAC 92.072 et seq.) All other former Tier II hunters rights are GONE, are denied annual subsistence hunting and are put into a once every 4 year lottery. That means you may never get to hunt Unit 13 caribou again for the rest of your life. The regs were changed too close to the hunting season to allow for anyone else to apply for a community harvest hunt, because the next Board of Game meeting is Nov. 2009, AFTER the fall hunts are over!

    However, next year, if you apply for and opt-in to the Community Harvest (“slaughter”) Permits, you MAY be eligible every year you apply. The Community “slaughter” permits don’t necessarily allow YOU to hunt; the community hunt administrator determines who can hunt for the community – one “hired hunter” (who is reimbursed for all costs of hunting) can kill the entire community quota of caribou and moose! AND they determine for you how much meat goes to sharing and to whom, NOT by you and your family. Do we really need regulations (5 AAC 92.072 (c)(1)(F)) to tell us how much and who to share our subsistence hunting gains with? That is destroying longtime customary and traditional family subsistence hunting, to say nothing of blatant denial of equal protections.

    The new regulations force everyone who needs or wants to hunt annually, to apply for the Community “slaughter” permits, otherwise you get the 4-year lottery which is NOT subsistence use, and you most likely will never receive a permit again by lottery! Is this how we want to treat our longtime Alaskans? What is next, Native/rural preference for the pfd dollars? Unemployment dollars? State retirement fund?

    The law requires that when the game resource is too low for all subsistence users to get a permit, then the longtime customs, traditions, socio-economic factors (AS 16.05.258(b)(3) [ie, Tier I] and (4)[ie, Tier II), “shall” be considered. The new regs do not consider any longtime customary or traditional uses where the first 300+ permits are given off the top no questions asked to the 8 Ahtna Native villages (i.e, not eligible for subsistence use under the enabling law above), and the 4-year lottery does not use the individual user’s longtime customary and traditional family use and dependency. Thus NEITHER category complies with the subsistence statute, whether it is at the Tier I or Tier II level.

    Some how, after 20+ years as a Tier II hunt, and when the Nelchina caribou herd is down to 30,000 animals (thus allowing only a 1,000 harvestable quota for 2009-2010), the BOG nonetheless turns it into a Tier I hunt, without realizing that NEITHER category of granting 300+ permits or the once every 4-year lottery, do NOT comply with the statutory requirement for subsistence hunting eligibility! (AS 16.05.258(b)(3) or (4)). At Tier I it is still a subsistence hunt and “no other consumptive uses are allowed.” Thus an automatic “grant” (with no qualifying conditions whatsoever) of 300+ permits, and a 4-year lottery, are other consumptive uses not allowed by statute. The BOG action is clearly arbitrary and capricious, without justification, and must be struck down by the courts.


    This issue of granting special hunting privilages goes way back to our Constitutional Convention, when they wrote Article VIII Section 3 (common use clause), and 15, 17, and clearly stated there will be no granting of special privileges for hunting or fishing. Upheld in McDowell v. State, 785 P.2d 1 (Alaska 1989), reaffirmed in Rosier v. Kenaitze Indian Tribe, 894 P.2d 632 (Alaska 1995), and several more cases thereafter. And what did they do again – granting 300+ permits right off the top without any subsistence qualifications whatsoever. When is the ADFG BOG and the State AG Saxby going to listen to the courts and comply with the laws and constitutions??

    These Community Harvest Subsistence (“slaughter”) Permits are the most despicable, disgraceful, degrading hunting regulations I have ever seen! They destroy longtime customary and traditional family subsistence hunting, and allow regulations to tell us who to share with and how much, under penalty of law!

    There is still time to help fight these disgraceful regulations – go to Manning v. ADFG and see what you can do! Call the Lt. Gov Sean Parnel, and the Gov Palin. Phone numbers and addresses on the following web site:
    http://www.angelfire.com/ak2/Alaskasourdough/ADFGlawsuit.html. Take action to help protect your hunting rights! God help us all!

    Alaskasourdough

  2. #2
    Member bushrat's Avatar
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    Default Hey Ken (Alaskasourdough)

    Ken,

    If you believe there should be no granting of special privileges for hunting, why do you support the Tier system?

    In fact, didn't you yourself sue the state previously in order that you would be granted special subsistence status to hunt Nelchina bou?

    Not saying I disagree with the intent of the Tier system, just trying to wrap my head around how on the one hand you claim to be fighting for equal rights for all Alaskan hunters yet on the other you fight for the unequal rights of a Tier system whereby not all Alaskans are eligible to hunt.

  3. #3
    Member Vince's Avatar
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    I have read enough of kens post here and on other forums that kens newest argument is that HE is loosing privileges. while i may agree with him that it is wrong to significantly apply tags to a community harvest program, the federal government has been using GMU resident status for years to qualify for subsistance hunting permits. IF it is SUBSTANCE hunting, it should have a local preference IMO. this definition and preference has led to and continues to lead to on going conflicts between the state and Federal game management offices. SUBSISTANCE should have a RURAL preference on it. how ever should also have some guidelines to describe them...

    I am a long term Res also. ken i have not qualified in years for a tier II, and live next door to the unit. tier II is flawed, tag quotas are flawed, n that they EXCLUDE the people just outside the village that are not part of it. I Will not be joining your campaign as you exude to much self interest in it in your claims that YOU as a long term resident are now being discriminated against,,, and there are so many others that have been so for years at your bequest...
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    Member Matt's Avatar
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    Default

    I was one of the people who emailed you to inform you that I hope you lose this lawsuit and it causes a loss of money on your behalf.

  5. #5

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    I and many acquaintances with whom I have spoken to about your quest, fully support you and your endeavor Mr. Manning. You sir, are a champion among champions. Don't allow the naysayers to alter your course. Your vision of right and wrong are clear and consistant, year after year.
    What others don't recognize in the history of the process, is their own downfall. I fully support your views of what is right. When is the next hearing on the matter? Got a court date, time and location? Thank You for your patronage to the Hunting Fraternity.
    "96% of all Internet Quotes are suspect and the remaining 4% are fiction."
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    I've got caribou in unit 13 for 50 years straight, I'm Irish and live in a native village. I don't like the idea of a community hunt, I don't like Tier 11, I fought for predator control thru the 90's+, helped get this area back to 1 bear a year.
    From what I've seen 'on the ground', the carrying capacity for caribou is good enough for a higher caribou population.
    With that being said, there are some people in these villages that feel the same as I do, more equality for all residents.

    If Ken loses his lawsuit, will there be another lawsuit in time to stop the community hunts from getting a 'foothold', and do you think Ahtna will stop trying for 'more?
    I don't see a 'pretty' picture down the 'road'.
    And I don't think I'll ever watch the big herds of caribou taking three days to cross the highway again.

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    Thumbs down Pretty sad...

    you equate Natives with slaughter...

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    Why should we care WHY this guy is in this? Do we want "community harvest quota's" or not? That's the question to answer. Whatever this guy did in the past, and why he did it is immaterial.
    Fed regs are different than state regs, Vince. If you want changes to state subsistence laws, get with legislators and try and change them. Currently, this program looks really illegal to me. It is not the way I would want future "subsistence" type hunt permits to be given out. If someone doesn't challenge this plan, it would likely grow. Other native corps and entities would work for the same thing. The state of Alaska has brought RACE into the management picture. Nothing in either federal or state law allows that. This is a dangerous road to go down.
    I thank sourdough for bringing this issue to court. It is his right to do so. It is our right to have state laws that are constitutional. I don't see this plan as legal under our constitution. Only way we will know tho is to have it brought to court.
    The state has lost game management decisions before, as Sourdough pointed out. Just because Saxby says it will fly isn't a seal of approval. Only a court case will answer if this plan meets state laws.
    Once again, thanks sourdough.
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    Member Vince's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by martentrapper View Post
    Fed regs are different than state regs, Vince.

    Really? wow!!


    no kidding.


    I guess you missed the part about the continuing on legal issues that are still currently in court between state and Federal lands,,,


    the issue i have is not the law suit but the advertised issue behind it.

    HE no longer qualifies... when he is one that pushed for the inequality that we all have had to deal with... but i understand MT, you made your point clear several threads ago, when you indicated that as long it don't affect you, it don't matter....

    I DID NOT say the BOG was right .... i agree in part with ken but will not support the return of Tier II for his benefit, when so many do not qualify..WHO SHOULD.
    "If you are on a continuous search to be offended, you will always find what you are looking for; even when it isn't there."

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  10. #10

    Unhappy

    Quote Originally Posted by Vince View Post
    Really? wow!!


    no kidding.


    I guess you missed the part about the continuing on legal issues that are still currently in court between state and Federal lands,,,


    the issue i have is not the law suit but the advertised issue behind it.

    HE no longer qualifies... when he is one that pushed for the inequality that we all have had to deal with... but i understand MT, you made your point clear several threads ago, when you indicated that as long it don't affect you, it don't matter....

    I DID NOT say the BOG was right .... i agree in part with ken but will not support the return of Tier II for his benefit, when so many do not qualify..WHO SHOULD.
    Vince,
    To take the case to court. Mr. Manning has to demonstrate where "he" has been harmed. Thus the approach with the 'Me/I" comments in his suit, writings and speakings.

    As for "Who Should" qualify, I think we all know the courts told us that answer a long time ago. Basically the courts have ruled time and again, that the State of Alaska has to discriminate against each of it's citizens EQUALLY. That simply put means, we all have to answer the same questions and they cannot be based on income, zip code or race. Practically all else is up for grabs for the state to use against us. I honestly think that most Alaskan's want to be treated "FAIRLY" by their state and not "EQUALLY" and this deeply rooted want is hard to counter in discussions and it is routinely used in part of their arguements for and against being classified by the state as a 1st Class Citizen or a 2nd Class Citizen. Bottom line is, the courts have ruled time and again, the State of Alaska has every right to classify its citizens for special benefits and priveleges. Sorta makes one want to have a real serious talk with their kids about the "Golden Rule" don't it. I think the younger hunters need to know the truth and I hope many are reading these forums, so they get the info they will need if they want to hunt in the future. Or do we tell them they can move to a Native Village if they want to be assured of the opportunity to hunt on PUBLIC LANDS.
    God Bless Ken Manning and God Bless Alaska's 2nd Class Citizenry.
    "96% of all Internet Quotes are suspect and the remaining 4% are fiction."
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  11. #11

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    Tier II was NOT special "grant" of permits like to Ahtna; they don't even have to qualify for any past subsistence use - that is wrong. And if the BOG and Ahtna want to change that, they must change the enabling statute and the consitutions! You don't stop diarea by putting on different color under ware, you have to work with the other end - or you can never change the system. Why not take the Pt. Barrow whale hunts away from them because no one else has been able to hunt the whales? And this Community "slaughter" permit bull**** - don't the Ahtna natives have any men who know how to hunt? who can teach their sons and pass on generations of traditions? This "hired hunter" to take the village quota is a disgrace, allows the Pt. Hope caribou slaughters to continue. If they pay a hired hunter to go get their meat, that is not subsistence hunting (by statutory definition "subsistence use" must be in the family! May as well go to the butch store and buy some meat and call it "subsistence hunting"! Totally defies logic, and pride in Alaska hunting. There's a lot more they could do than the Tier II but its a hell of a lot better than this Community Haverst "slaughter" permit with "hired hunter!" Did you read my entire post? Is that what all Alaska hunting is coming too, this Community"slaughter" permits? I am too proud of a long time hunter to let that take over my hunting privileges! Wait and see, what they are trying is blatantly unconstitutional!

  12. #12

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    Do you realize the BOG just arbitrarily snapped their fingers and said all you 10,000 to 20,000 longtime Tier II hunters - your rights are now GONE? That is wrong! After the State has formed and protected the Teir II in the courts for 20 years! As the BOG Chair Cliff Judkins said, he knows its wrong and the court will have to figure it out. So we are in the court again!

  13. #13

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    My law suit affects tens of thousands of Alaskans, there is no "me/I" claims, read the complaint again. The new regulations force anyone who needs or wants to hunt annually, to op-in to the Community Harvest ("slaughter") permits! And that does NOT mean you will get to hunt, the Permit Administrator says who will hunt and who gets how much meat. That's NOT customary and traditional family subsistence hunting for anyone!

  14. #14

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    No, I don't equate Natives with slaughter. Right now only Native villages have applief for the community harvest ("slaughter") permits; and no one else was told that if you don't apply for a community harvest permit for this year then all your hunting rights are gone, and into a 4-year lottery. Do the math - if 50,000 people apply for 300 Nelchina caribou permits - the vast majority of these 50,000 will NEVER get a permit in their life time!
    I said the community harvest permit system is a "slaughter" permit, because if one hired-hunter can kill 20+ caribou at once, that IS a slaughter, just like a cattle slaughter-house, no matter what the race of the hunter. Look beyond the end of your gun barrel, into the future, Units 8, 9, 11, 12, 13, are going to the community harvest ("slaughter") permits for the vast majority of the moose and caribou! That is not traditional and customary subsistence hunting. That is a disgrace to all Alaskan hunters!

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    Member Vince's Avatar
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    Default you forget many of us are both places...

    Quote Originally Posted by Alaskasourdough View Post
    My law suit affects tens of thousands of Alaskans, there is no "me/I" claims, read the complaint again. The new regulations force anyone who needs or wants to hunt annually, to op-in to the Community Harvest ("slaughter") permits! And that does NOT mean you will get to hunt, the Permit Administrator says who will hunt and who gets how much meat. That's NOT customary and traditional family subsistence hunting for anyone!
    you didn't write this?

    Does any one see anything wrong the Chair of the Board of Game, Cliff Judkin's explanation for the new hunting regs that replace Tier II?

    Fellow Hunters--The new system that the Board of Game adopted at the March meeting removes the guarantee that us old timers get a Nelchina Caribou permit every year by eliminating the infamous T-11 subsistence hunt; how ever by instituting a Tier-1 hunt EVERY ALASKAN HAS AN EQUAL OPPORTUNITY TO DRAW A PERMIT TO HUNT THE NELCHINA CARIBOU. I understand that there are several questions that can only be answered by the courts. That is the way we do things in a country of law. Just understand that the tens of thousands of hunter that never had a chance of hunting Nelchina Caribou have an equal chance to draw a Tier-1 permit and the local folks have some assurance that their is a hunt that they can participate in to feed their families from the game populations in their back yards. The only losers here are people like me that now have to share the Nelchina Caribou heard with the Alaskans that have been shut out for most of the last 26 years. .
    Cliff Judkins Chair, Alaska Board of Game
    Quote Originally Posted by Alaskasourdough View Post
    No, I don't equate Natives with slaughter. Right now only Native villages have applief for the community harvest ("slaughter") permits; and no one else was told that if you don't apply for a community harvest permit for this year then all your hunting rights are gone, and into a 4-year lottery. Do the math - if 50,000 people apply for 300 Nelchina caribou permits - the vast majority of these 50,000 will NEVER get a permit in their life time!
    I said the community harvest permit system is a "slaughter" permit, because if one hired-hunter can kill 20+ caribou at once, that IS a slaughter, just like a cattle slaughter-house, no matter what the race of the hunter. Look beyond the end of your gun barrel, into the future, Units 8, 9, 11, 12, 13, are going to the community harvest ("slaughter") permits for the vast majority of the moose and caribou! That is not traditional and customary subsistence hunting. That is a disgrace to all Alaskan hunters!
    you didn't write this?



    Even under the past Tier II, one or two hunters shooting a bunch of caribou for the community harvest, is just not sportsman like, is totally unnecessary, and should be outlawed! If the old Native traditional ways of family hunting can no longer be maintained by the Natives, why let them start new "slaughter" traditions like Pt. Hope?! There always was the proxy hunter for his family elders, sick or medically disabled, but to be able to shoot the "community" harvest is not Alaskan, is not necessary for subsistence hunters, and should be banned totally!

    http://www.alaskaoutdoorsinfo.com/Fo...hp?topic=590.0
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    Member ret25yo's Avatar
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    i dont know about the second example but the first was actually "seem to me" to be written by..(hence the name under the paragraph.)

    Cliff Judkins Chair, Alaska Board of Game

    .. unless of course im missing a name screenname relationship

    If you cant stand behind the troops in Iraq.. Feel free to stand in front of them.

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    Member BRWNBR's Avatar
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    "That's NOT customary and traditional family subsistence hunting for anyone!"

    i'm curious since when was shooting moose and caribou in the fall customary? village i lived it, it was a whenever deal, we need a moose. boom. customary and traditional. i'm not even sure what traditional family subsistance is anymore or even if there literlly is such a thing, i grew up on unit 13 caribou, haven't killed one i over 20 years thanks to teir II, oh well move on theres other caribou out there.

    If we go rural preference, we'll have to go rural preferenace across the state, not just nelchina, give every village off the road system a 100 mile loop and let them have eveything with hooves in it for customary and traditional family use REGARDLESS of race. goodbye to alot more than nelchina caribou....this nelchina caribou stuff is so lopsided its crazy.
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    Member bushrat's Avatar
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    Default Ken, now I remember why...

    ...I've always been turned off with your views expressed here on this forum.

    To equate any form of permits as "slaughter," to attempt to tie this into what happened at Pt Hope, is disgraceful. Your attitude toward Native peoples is disgraceful. You continue to talk out both sides of your mouth, on one hand saying you don't equate Natives with "slaughter" then in the very next sentence you use that word again to describe what you think is going on. Disgraceful.

  19. #19

    Angry

    Quote Originally Posted by bushrat View Post
    ...I've always been turned off with your views expressed here on this forum.

    To equate any form of permits as "slaughter," to attempt to tie this into what happened at Pt Hope, is disgraceful. Your attitude toward Native peoples is disgraceful. You continue to talk out both sides of your mouth, on one hand saying you don't equate Natives with "slaughter" then in the very next sentence you use that word again to describe what you think is going on. Disgraceful.
    What I find to be "Disgraceful" are those that refuse to recognize the similiarities of illegal incidents that occur and then somehow down the road, they get aired in public forums and twisted around so as to come off as being acceptable and eventually written into law and regulation.
    I personally have no problem whatsoever, seeing a direct and distinctive correlation between what happened at Pt Hope and what is being propped up with the AHTNA Corp. Both are founded on what the villagers purport to be past practice and in their mnds acceptable methods.
    It is a cancer among our society and it is ravaging our very basic understanding of equallity. Our laws are being undermined by these special classes of society. The more the cancer spreads, the more classes will be generated. Many living in the state now are 2nd Class Citizens. There children run the risk of being 3rd Class Citizens, if this nonsense is allowed to continue. Disgraceful Indeed
    "96% of all Internet Quotes are suspect and the remaining 4% are fiction."
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  20. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by bushrat View Post
    ...I've always been turned off with your views expressed here on this forum.

    To equate any form of permits as "slaughter," to attempt to tie this into what happened at Pt Hope, is disgraceful. Your attitude toward Native peoples is disgraceful. You continue to talk out both sides of your mouth, on one hand saying you don't equate Natives with "slaughter" then in the very next sentence you use that word again to describe what you think is going on. Disgraceful.
    As I said, if you had read the entire post, it is not the race of hunter that is allowed to shoot 20+ caribou at once, its the permit that allows it - the Community Harvest ("slaughter") permit. That is the disgrace to all Alaskan hunters and all races. And the new regs are FORCING anyone who needs to subsistence hunt annually, to get a commuity slaughter permit, or you are out! Out into the once every 4 year lottery - which obvioulsy means the vast majority of the lottery applicants will NEVER receive a permit in their life time! Is that the two alternatives you want? a slaughter permit or Never-get-a-lottery permit? Not me!

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