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Thread: Point Hope Responds

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    Member AKBassking's Avatar
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    Arrow Point Hope Responds

    Could it be that some of us on the forum were wrong about the elders at Point Hope?

    http://www.thearcticsounder.com/news/show/5341

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    I understand how the few elders wouldn't know what the 'younger' generations were doing, this is typical in most village's, even much smaller villages. Too bad those that were/are unaware of what really happened were brought into this mess.
    Virtually every community in Alaska has its share of unethical jerks, that doesn't mean you lump all community members as being on the wrong side of the law.
    It just *isses me off that those responsible, don't have the golf balls to come forward and take the 'heat' off the rest of the villagers. Same goes for those that are with holding information.
    my opinion.

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    I , for one, do not like it one bit that any elder would be drug into having to solve a crime, and when they looked into it as people who wernyt there, be blamed for "not helping"...boooo hoo.
    haveing a Trooper say "You know who did this" is total B.S. No wonder they dont want to talk with a random accuser.

    Could be that there wasnt an elder for 40 miles, and them being held accountable for others actions is wrong.
    When will we hold all the seniors in Anch responsible and await their 'Help' when someone there breaks the law? and them blame them for stonewalling any investigation when they dont turn in the perps??

    Elders councils are held for Opinion, and to guide the village politics, not investigate or punish crimes, but would probly help make sure it doesnt happen again, if they could in any possible way, as you or I would.


    8 guys under thirty, out of 900 people. Go figure.
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    Default confused

    Stranger, this is the first time I have disagreed with you, as you stated "Elders councils are held for Opinion, and to guide the village politics, not investigate or punish crimes, but would probly help make sure it doesnt happen again, if they could in any possible way, as you or I would." Then why would they send the letter to the governer wanting to handle something the had no knowledge of.

    Terry

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    Simple.
    I would send a letter if the state Govonor, Head of Troopers, state attorney and anyone else who cold come and compatently head up an investigation, if a cop came and publicy falsely accused/held me accountable for something I DIDDNT do. I would certainly figure out that anyone who is on an elders council was about 99% uninvolved.

    With an investigation proceeding in that sort of way,I would not only write what was F#%&'d up , but I would offer to do it right, my way, seeing how the Police were not getting anywhere, and because to accuse /hold accountable the oldest people for what their adult grandchildren/not even related did is purely unprofessional and not even legal or productive. I would put a stop to that sort of "Investigating", and find those who could do it right. It seems to me that that is exactly what happend.

    Publicly and falsly accusing people of crimes is about the quickest way to have innocent , helpfull folks turn on you, especcially in small villages.

    An annonomus tip from a Point Hope person started the investigation, and a Point Hope person there got his buddies recorded and busted is what solved the case. He did it to get a reduced charge for selling alcohol, a fairly standard investigative technique.

    NONE of that should have had an ANY elder dragged into any investigation as it turns out NO ELDERS were involved from the Start...hell, Pices of Chit werent even middleaged.

    Time for soap on a rope.
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    Thumbs up very well put

    Well put stranger. AOD must have somehow run low on their scales of justice, or it wouldn't have given me that nasty message when I clicked on them just now.

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    You know, these 8 guys owe an Apologie to the Elders of Point Hope, and the people there. Even to the Troopers who had to work so hard to crack this nut, with all that happend.

    Is "Running the Gauntlett" a punishment anymore???
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    Supporting Member bullbuster's Avatar
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    Default Sick herd?

    If there are that many unhealthy and unfit caribou in the herd, they need to start importing wolves.
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  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by AKBassking View Post
    Could it be that some of us on the forum were wrong about the elders at Point Hope?

    http://www.thearcticsounder.com/news/show/5341
    Not at all. The article is Liberal Based Damage Control. That is all. Do you honestly think the ones waiting in the village for the return of sled loads of meat, do not absolutely know WHO brought it in? Do you think the Woods Fairies come out at night and deliver meat to the houses? Come on, think seriously about the entire senario and how it played out. You can also very well bet, the cameras and cell phones were whirling full speed, when the sleds came in from the slaughter. They always do, why should this one incident be any different?

    And to read the DoubleSpeak from the elders quoted in the article, it becomes painfully obvious why the younger villagers are so absolutely mixed up in their perceptions. They got a whole lot of sorting out in their minds that needs done, of what is right and what is wrong. I hope a judge helps them do just that. I reserve further comment on the community response until after the sentencing of the perps and await their public address'. Only then, will we know how they really feel about the process.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Terry View Post
    Stranger, this is the first time I have disagreed with you, as you stated "Elders councils are held for Opinion, and to guide the village politics, not investigate or punish crimes, but would probly help make sure it doesnt happen again, if they could in any possible way, as you or I would." Then why would they send the letter to the governer wanting to handle something the had no knowledge of.

    Terry

    exactly !!! i was just windering same thing....


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    Default Hey Stranger...a question

    While Oomituk believes that the tribe should handle punishing the hunters who are convicted, he said that he thinks a court hearing for the hunters could do some good for his community.
    Stranger, what is your take on the above? Do you think the tribe and not the state should decide punishment?

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    Default Back in the day...

    the elders would have banished/alienate these culprits...& that would have spelled certain death...however, back in the day I highly doubt this would have happened as there are many different circumstances surround todays hunting techniques, so what punishment would fit this crime, if the elders were to handle this? This is a Misdemenor offense, & had this been on rez land in the L48, tribal courts would be handling this, not state troopers...hence the request from the elders of the community wanting to handle this on THIER terms, not state terms, it give the elders of the community some legitamacy, for future use, terms of respect from others within the community.

    Today, not much respect is given to elders like they were pre-contact. Schooling/christianity insured that our lifestyle be destroyed, & it's succeded.

    Like it or not, that's my take...

    Oh & Terry, the troopers probably approached the elders first, since many troopers, wanting clout, seek elders, who may have clout, can get some information...I've heard from many a troopers the way to a village heart is through it's elders...

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    Quote Originally Posted by gogoalie View Post
    the elders would have banished/alienate these culprits...& that would have spelled certain death...however, back in the day I highly doubt this would have happened as there are many different circumstances surround todays hunting techniques, so what punishment would fit this crime, if the elders were to handle this? This is a Misdemenor offense, & had this been on rez land in the L48, tribal courts would be handling this, not state troopers...hence the request from the elders of the community wanting to handle this on THIER terms, not state terms, it give the elders of the community some legitamacy, for future use, terms of respect from others within the community.

    Today, not much respect is given to elders like they were pre-contact. Schooling/christianity insured that our lifestyle be destroyed, & it's succeded.

    Like it or not, that's my take...

    Oh & Terry, the troopers probably approached the elders first, since many troopers, wanting clout, seek elders, who may have clout, can get some information...I've heard from many a troopers the way to a village heart is through it's elders...


    In the lower 48 on the rez they still have to abide by state and fed game laws.
    It would be handled by state courts as it should be here.
    Do not like tribal courts handling a lot of what they are.
    To much of the thats my relative being played.

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    Default tribal courts in...

    L48 are authorized to handle misdemenors...

    But I know what you mean, 'bout nepotism, & such...

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    Back in the day, The whole summer was spent persuing Caribou for meat, fat and hides.....the hides would have been dryed for clothing and stored untill fall time sewing season, the meat would have been dryed and storeduntill it could be fetched in winter.

    This is not a 48 Reservation.


    Bushrat,
    They should be and will be tried in state court as the offense wasnt against tribal members or on Tribal land,.

    The missionarys who started teh schooling certainly did chage the tradional outlook and respect for their nature.They tought apples and oranges in a word of caribou and Berrys.....Thats a different argument,though.
    Even today, the only kids I see growing up to be "hunters" as in 24/7 dropped outta school young and recive a proper education in the school with no roof.
    There are many better Hunters than I.


    just how in this world would someone who recives meat 40 miles away from the kill know how and how many Caribou were killed.????
    Sleds in the summer?
    Did this all happen at once, or over a matter of days?

    Its totally unexcusable, but it seems that everyone here wants to blame the community as a whole, so maby some of you had better get some better control over the vast ammount of crimes getting commited there,where you live the vast ammout of laws violated here by out of area hunters, as well as the drugs and alcohol leaving Anchorage/Fairbanks.!!!~~LOL!!~~Should we blame youyr parents? i cant help but laugh if this had been reversed.

    Few who comment here have anything more than speculation and guesswork, as I can plainly see.

    Point Hope guys commited this crime, PointHope people turned them in and a Point Hope person got the job done when a Cop couldnt.
    Belive it or not, 99% of the people who I talk too are pissed off as am I, but we wont take being blamed as a group.
    Screw that.
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    Default similar in Anchorage

    We had a similar type thing happen in Anchotage awile back. Similar in the way that it took the elders of a group to bring the criminals to light. There was a beating at a gas station. The attackers were said to be Samoan. APD viewed the security tapes (something like that probably would've been nice in this case) but couldn't get a good ID of the suspects. They went to the community and asked the Somoan elders for there assisstance. They were told that it would be given, it took a long time and pressure from APD and the rest of the community (non-samoan) to get the elders to turn in the suspects. It was later stated that the elders were trying to send the suspects back to Samoa to avoid persecution for thier crimes here.

    Now I'm not saying that the Point Hope elders would do such things to "protect" thier village residents, but with the chance exists. I seem to remember a while ago when 2 youths were convicted of a crime and sentenced to solitude on an island. I could live with something like that as a punishment for this crime. I think the way it should be handled is that the state should try the men in court. After that case is over (found guilty or not) then the elders and village residents should be able to try the men for the same crimes and issue thier own punishments (if found guilty) to run concurrently with any state fines or punishments. I strongly believe that the men should at a minimum be required to give some sort of public appology to thier fellow villagers and all hunters of this state for thier inability to show respect to ALL by standing up immeadiately and saying "I did it" wether they thought they were right in doing what they did or not!

    I think the majority of resentment towards the suspects and thier community was this unwillingness to step up and take responsibility for thier actions, instead of dragging it out and letting the the untrained general public form thier own conclusions and convictions in this case.

    This as always is JMO.

    Tom

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    Quote Originally Posted by dandeo2003 View Post
    We had a similar type thing happen in Anchotage awile back. Similar in the way that it took the elders of a group to bring the criminals to light. There was a beating at a gas station. The attackers were said to be Samoan. APD viewed the security tapes (something like that probably would've been nice in this case) but couldn't get a good ID of the suspects. They went to the community and asked the Somoan elders for there assisstance. They were told that it would be given, it took a long time and pressure from APD and the rest of the community (non-samoan) to get the elders to turn in the suspects. It was later stated that the elders were trying to send the suspects back to Samoa to avoid persecution for thier crimes here.

    Now I'm not saying that the Point Hope elders would do such things to "protect" thier village residents, but with the chance exists. I seem to remember a while ago when 2 youths were convicted of a crime and sentenced to solitude on an island. I could live with something like that as a punishment for this crime. I think the way it should be handled is that the state should try the men in court. After that case is over (found guilty or not) then the elders and village residents should be able to try the men for the same crimes and issue thier own punishments (if found guilty) to run concurrently with any state fines or punishments. I strongly believe that the men should at a minimum be required to give some sort of public appology to thier fellow villagers and all hunters of this state for thier inability to show respect to ALL by standing up immeadiately and saying "I did it" wether they thought they were right in doing what they did or not!

    I think the majority of resentment towards the suspects and thier community was this unwillingness to step up and take responsibility for thier actions, instead of dragging it out and letting the the untrained general public form thier own conclusions and convictions in this case.

    This as always is JMO.

    Tom

    LOL yeah i remember that one too, and what a fiasco it turned into. the first did not finish the banishment, the continued to get in trouble and wound up in jail for other more sever crimes if my memory serves me correctly
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    It's a rare criminal that turns himself in.


    Oh well, now we get to wait while the justice system takes it sweet@$$ time.
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  19. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by dandeo2003 View Post
    I seem to remember a while ago when 2 youths were convicted of a crime and sentenced to solitude on an island. I could live with something like that as a punishment for this crime. I think the way it should be handled is that the state should try the men in court. After that case is over (found guilty or not) then the elders and village residents should be able to try the men for the same crimes and issue thier own punishments (if found guilty) to run concurrently with any state fines or punishments. I strongly believe that the men should at a minimum be required to give some sort of public appology to thier fellow villagers and all hunters of this state for thier inability to show respect to ALL by standing up immeadiately and saying "I did it" wether they thought they were right in doing what they did or not!
    Tom
    And, I think you should go back and review that particular case, the crime, the punishment, the final outcome. You might change your mind about supporting such silliness. This is quite probably the very best bad example of what should never be allowed to be repeated. EVERYONE wound up with egg on their faces over this incident. It was an absolute farce and a total mockery of the Justice System. The perps are still bad guys, go to the court records on line and look at their names and imagine if you can, what they have cost the people of Alaska since that time. They had a chance to reform these characters, but instead turned them into full blown criminals.
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    Default Speaking from experiance

    Back in the early 80s, on a sunny June afternoon my mom and dad come for their first visit to Alaska. I rent a boat and take them up to Lake Creek, on the Yentna. We boat up Lake Creek to do some king fishing. This is my first time fishing here.

    A little ways up the river, there is a ADFG marker. At the time it was covered by brush. We went above the marker to an island, where my mom and dad fished with double hooks and bait. Yes I was a young inexperienced son who did not read the regs. My 6 year old son was playing out the back of the boat with to rods, not fishing, just playing. I was napping on the beach in the warm sun.

    You guessed it! A brown shirt showed up and as the good son that I am, I volunteered to take the ding and the officer wrote me a ticket. Mom and dad were from out of state and I didn't want them to burden them with the cost of flying back up.

    Went to court in August where I received a 20-day jail term, 2 years probation and all my fishing gear confiscated, minus the boat as it was a rental.

    Point: If I can receive this type of sentence for a simple mistake, then those responsible for the shameful waste should also receive a very stiff penalty, maybe with a little jail time in Seward. It isnít based on race or tradition; it is based on Alaska law. These criminals are Alaskan residents just as the rest of us and need to be treated accordingly.

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