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Thread: well, no point in wasting time....

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    Member homerdave's Avatar
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    Exclamation well, no point in wasting time....

    seems that helo wolf shooting by the dept started yesterday out of tok.
    don't tell me that this was not a pre-ordained plan, cause how else would they be up and ready to go so soon after the BOG meeting?
    wonder where the money is coming from?
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    Member Vince's Avatar
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    a now dave... theres that conspiracist theory again...


    you know there PROBABLY was a helo just sitting there waiting to be used.... ya know those TOK Helli skiers need a pass time too can't be running the "slopes" with those dog tracks all over them....
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    Member Chisana's Avatar
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    Typically BOG/BOF regulations take time to become "official". They have to go through department of law review and be signed by the lt. governor. There is stuff the BOF did back in December that has not been signed off on yet. I wonder how ADF&G is getting around this? Seems like it might be a good area to attack if someone were going to do a legal challenge.

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    Member Matt's Avatar
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    Hopefully the wolves up there have full stomachs when the helicopter rolls around. They'll be slower on the ground....

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    Member bushrat's Avatar
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    Default AK BHA Comments on Proposal 190

    This centers around BOG passage of Prop # 190. I'll paste our AK BHA comments in opposition to that proposal below, which may shed more light on what it will allow. I think the Dept already has the authority to take wolves from helicopters in areas under Intensive Management control plans, and Prop 190 just gave a wider range of methods and means. Could be that the new "leadership" team at ADFG has differing views on how far to go, and with BOG support and passage of Proposal 190 they feel better about doing Dept control efforts right now. Have no clue where funding for any Dept control activities with helicopters is coming from; as of two weeks ago they didn't have the money. Hmmmm.

    One thing to keep in mind about passage of Prop 190 (below) is what ADFG had to say last year to the Board of Game about control of brown bears: "The Department does not support the taking of any grizzly bear by trapping, snaring, or same day airborne, or the sale of tanned bear hides, even in brown bear predator control areas."

    Funny how a new politically appointed "leadership" team at ADFG can change the views of the Department.

    Proposal 190 – 5AAC 92.039. Permit for taking wolves using aircraft;
    92.044. Permit for hunting black bear with the use of bait or scent lures; 92.068. Permit conditions for hunting black bear with dog; 92.080. Unlawful methods of taking big game; exceptions; 92.085. Unlawful methods of taking big game; exceptions; 92.106. Intensive management of identified big game prey populations; 92.108. Identified big game prey populations and objectives; 92.110. Control of predation by wolves; 92.115. Control of predation by bears; and 92.125. Predation Control Areas Implementation Plans.

    OPPOSE
    This proposal includes three distinct changes to existing statutes.
    The first is the allowance of carbon monoxide (gas) cartridges by ADFG and Federal personnel to ostensibly be used in wolf dens in order to kill wolves.

    The only reason we can think of for this change is that the practice of
    “denning” (killing wolf pups specifically) is to be more widely used by
    government employees in Alaska in spring as part of wolf control efforts.

    The state of Alaska currently allows the aerial gunning of wolves by private pilots participating in wolf control programs. Generally, those aerial wolf control efforts done by private citizens are very effective in reducing wolf numbers while at the same time they shift much of the monetary burden of wolf control away from the Department.

    It is entirely unclear what effect allowing the use of carbon monoxide
    cartridges to euthanize wolves will have, whether there will be increased wolf control by government employees in conjunction with private aerial gunning efforts, or whether there will be a shift of the burden of wolf control on the state and federal government.

    If that was clarified AK BHA could better comment on that first facet. We don’t necessarily oppose the use of carbon monoxide gas cartridges by government employees for euthanizing wolves, if that is done under a prudent and necessary wolf management program.

    The second aspect of this proposal basically would permit something that is already allowed - the use of helicopters by government employees to take wolves from the air. Last spring ADFG employees did just that on the central peninsula. What is troubling about this second aspect of the proposal is the added words about bear management activities, so we can only assume this facet is intended to allow the lethal control of both black and brown bears by government employees using helicopters for transport to the field.

    Again, it is entirely unclear what the passage of this facet of the proposal would entail. Does it mean we would have widescale killing of both black and brown bears by government personnel as part of any bear control efforts, or simply allow government employees to euthanize specific bears that are a danger to the public at large?

    It is our understanding that ADFG and other government employees can already use a helicopter for transportation and tracking of problem bears that they feel need to be euthanized.

    We oppose the lethal control of black and brown bears by government employees as part of any bear control program. Black bears are an important food and hide resource for many hunters, and brown and grizzly bears are an important big game trophy animal for both resident and non-resident hunters. We can see no reason that bears should ever need to be killed by government employees unless a specific bear (or bears) is a threat to public safety.

    Therefore we oppose the 2nd facet of this proposal.

    The third part of this proposal seeks to allow the use of snares by
    government employees to take black bears. There are no specific guidelines as to the type of snare that would be used, how these snares would prevent brown and grizzly bears or sows with cubs from being captured and killed, or how often such snares would have to be checked, or if any hide or meat would have to be salvaged. We oppose the use of lethal snares by government employees to take black bears.
    Alaska Backcountry Hunters and Anglers Spring 2009 BOG comments.

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    Member jkb's Avatar
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    How about a link? Maybe a picture or Video? Or should we take this on "faith"?
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    Member homerdave's Avatar
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    tell ya what... take it on faith for now, and in the next few days you can expect to see an "after-the-fact" press release...
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  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by homerdave View Post
    seems that helo wolf shooting by the dept started yesterday out of tok.
    don't tell me that this was not a pre-ordained plan, cause how else would they be up and ready to go so soon after the BOG meeting?
    wonder where the money is coming from?
    This is really great news. Any word on the first day's take? I hope the weather holds for them to get out and take of business. These folk from the dept have have this budgeted for a long time. Seems as though there is no end to the number of folks lined up to buy license's and tags to help pay for this service. The money is always present for high priority projects, heck even Anchorage and California (on the books appear to be busted, but..) have enough money to buy flowers and flags for people to look at in awe. Ohhhhh to be a door gunner!!!
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    webmaster Michael Strahan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bushrat View Post
    ...I think the Dept already has the authority to take wolves from helicopters in areas under Intensive Management control plans, and Prop 190 just gave a wider range of methods and means. Could be that the new "leadership" team at ADFG has differing views on how far to go, and with BOG support and passage of Proposal 190 they feel better about doing Dept control efforts right now. Have no clue where funding for any Dept control activities with helicopters is coming from; as of two weeks ago they didn't have the money. Hmmmm....
    Hi Mark,

    Just so I understand... Dave seems to be saying that they might be jumping the gun, and you are saying they could have done this under existing regulations?

    Also what do you mean about the funding? Where is it coming from?

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    Member bushrat's Avatar
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    Mike,

    Yes, I am saying that the Dept. could have done this under existing regulations, but it was all rammed through right after BOG meeting for some reason, so I'm not sure how it jibes. Stuff like the IACUC (Institutional Animal Care and Use Committee) permits that the Dept needs to handle or kill animals...just rushed through suddenly.

    It's a for-sure thing, just found out that there should be something in the press on it today or tomorrow, a press release or interview of some kind.

    Inre funding, I have no idea how the Division of Wildlife Conservation is suddenly paying for things like this. All of a sudden they are flush with money to pay for things they couldn't afford before.

    This question of funding came up at BOG meeting on the snaring and helo use stuff and word initially was that the Dept. couldn't afford to send personnel out to camps, be involved in tranqing bears or removing them or even relocating them. Then toward the end of the BOG meeting suddenly word was coming down they now had the funding and it wasn't an issue. Was part of how that all got pushed through. Have no clue where the money is coming from, new general funds or what. It's all happening fast and no one wants to say where the money is coming from. I just hope it isn't coming out of funds already allocated for things like sheep research, density estimates, prescribed burns etc. Or that it will hurt future funding for long-term needs and projects.

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    Member BRWNBR's Avatar
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    squeaky wheel syndrome...
    right now the areas that are getting the most predator control focus are the areas with the loudest people. Unit 16 is the hot spot for now, mainly its access to anchorage, river systems and number of homesteaders and folks with cabins that aren't getting their moose. So as a result "we" are willing to take measures that might seem a bit overboard to try and curb the bear numbers NOW. nothing seems to be an over time plan, its all a results yesterday feeling that they are puttin' out with this stuff.
    I hope that no one ever moves to where i guide, its got the same bear problems as unit 16 but no ones ever notices..why? cause no locals are yelling about not getting their moose and pointing fingers at the bears. ya, the bear are killing off the moose but since there is little or no human request for moose numbers, F&G looks elsewhere as a result people take measures and do things....things i shake my head at.
    Bushrat is right on with his concern for the funding of this new project, i'd be afraid the funding for this got moved from other more "stable" projects to satisfy a new squeaky wheel.
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  12. #12

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    The reality of preparing a budget is that it is not etched in stone. It is a fluid document and a purposeful tool for planning. In the planning, there are long range and short range considerations. Line items are continually being shifted up and down the priority list. It is entirely plausible that a new item go squarely to the top of the list. It has happened before and will happen again. What there is not enough of, is this: There is not enough money to accomplish everything on the wish list. Maybe we should go to a bonus points system for project funding allocations. That way when they get passed over for many, many years, they will at least be thrown into the 50/50 pool of possibilities. Hmm....many possibilities to explore here. Perhaps a direct allocation of resources to a private corporation to privatize the process..wait hold that thought, we will be getting some guidance on how to do that soon.
    "96% of all Internet Quotes are suspect and the remaining 4% are fiction."
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    Member homerdave's Avatar
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    Wink hope faith got you this far...

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  14. #14

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    I often wondered where homer got his information, but the occasional links he uses, I can see where he is coming from now.

    I just hope the readers here and abroad, can read between the lines when posters use the adn or similar liberal rags to spread their gossip and propaganda. These folks don't report the happenings. They spin it an twist it until it is something very different from what has actually happened. Don't buy it all guys and gals. To rely on this for your "facts" is well...just nonsense. No wonder so many are so mixed up.
    "96% of all Internet Quotes are suspect and the remaining 4% are fiction."
    ~~Abraham Lincoln~~

  15. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by Akres View Post
    I often wondered where homer got his information, but the occasional links he uses, I can see where he is coming from now.

    I just hope the readers here and abroad, can read between the lines when posters use the adn or similar liberal rags to spread their gossip and propaganda. These folks don't report the happenings. They spin it an twist it until it is something very different from what has actually happened. Don't buy it all guys and gals. To rely on this for your "facts" is well...just nonsense. No wonder so many are so mixed up.

    Ohh yah we should all get our news from the fair and balanced side like Rod Arno does.


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    Member BRWNBR's Avatar
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    geez someone woke up point fingers already....
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    Forum Admin Brian M's Avatar
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    Akres - The story homerdave linked to isn't an editorial - it's stating that ADF&G personnel have started a wolf control program near Tok using helicopters. He had mentioned this previously, and someone asked for verification. Are you suggesting that the ADN made this up, complete with quotes from state personnel?

    I'd agree that the ADN has a liberal bent and I take much of what they write with a grain of salt, but the fact that this is happening is...well, a fact. If it's wrong, please point out where so that we have the correct info. Seriously. I'd like to know the truth, so if you've got other info, please share.

  18. #18
    Member bushrat's Avatar
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    Default Newsminer link and NPS briefing document

    http://newsminer.com/news/2009/mar/1...ments-new-wol/

    Mowry's piece on it from the newsminer.

    And I've attached the NPS briefing statement without the maps included, too large a file with the maps.

    I found one particular part of Mowry's piece to be the same old type of spin:
    Department of Fish and Game assistant commissioner Corey Rossi said the governor remains committed to managing Alaska’s wildlife resources for Alaskans for food and subsistence uses “to preserve our way of life.”

    Non-res hunting for the Fortymile herd goes on right now. The notion that control programs are only to benefit Alaskans and subsistence uses is simply not true, regardless of whether you are for them, against them, or in the middle. I'm not sure why they just don't come out and say they also want to boost the herds so non-resident hunting and guiding can also take place; apparently that doesn't sell as well.

  19. #19
    Member Vince's Avatar
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    you know it is too bad they shipped out all the A 10's from eielson..... the state could of got the feds to do it... in the form of target practice....
    "If you are on a continuous search to be offended, you will always find what you are looking for; even when it isn't there."

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    Member Chisana's Avatar
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    If I was a trapper in the 40 mile region I would be pretty upset that the department was using helicopters and state employees to reduce the number of wolves available to me by 1/3. That's the equivalent of fish and game harvesting 1/3 of the available salmon in a given commercial fishery. How well would that go over?

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