Results 1 to 10 of 10

Thread: new s/a shooter and loader

  1. #1
    Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    northern n.y. and much of the eastern U.S.
    Posts
    120

    Default new s/a shooter and loader

    Hello everyone, I've come to here again to glean a bit more wisdom and understanding.
    I finally got the chance to put together some loads for my Ruger Blackhawk in 45 Colt...but I've got some questions, and I'd like some "experienced" shooters to shed some light ..., If you'd be so kind.
    First, I followed the instructions that came with my dies and the loads all looked real good, shot as well as I can (with a revolver), and emptied flawlessly. I even took some loads over to the "gun shop" to be examined by the fellows that load similar cartridges.
    Here's the thing.., how do you determine if you are crimping with the proper amount of "squeeze?" Yes, I know that I don't want my bullets slipping while being subjected to recoil, (and they're not), and I also know that they aren't supposed to come out of the crimp die looking like an hour glass. But, what is proper.., is it something you just feel..?
    Also, how do you guys check for accuracy ?
    Do you shoot of a rest, and if you do, how do you do it.., with out getting "pinched" under the "rolling" action caused by recoil?
    I do quite a bit of loading/shooting of my rifles, but this "hunting handgun" thing is all new to me.., I'm really getting a kick out of my time with the Blackhawk ... but I'll need to improve quite a bit before I take it to the field after big game... and that of course means practice.
    What kind of shooting practice/ routine will be the most profitable at bringing me from "here to there?"
    Right now, I'm trying to shoot "groups" but I'm getting "pinched," however, when I stand up and shoot with booth hands, I'm able to break softball size rocks most every time at 25 paces.
    And how do you feel about that sight called "One ragged hole?"

    Thanks fellows, Scott

  2. #2
    Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Anchorage
    Posts
    505

    Default Crimping

    Quote Originally Posted by 358wsm View Post
    First, I followed the instructions that came with my dies and the loads all looked real good, shot as well as I can (with a revolver), and emptied flawlessly. I even took some loads over to the "gun shop" to be examined by the fellows that load similar cartridges.
    Here's the thing.., how do you determine if you are crimping with the proper amount of "squeeze?" Yes, I know that I don't want my bullets slipping while being subjected to recoil, (and they're not), and I also know that they aren't supposed to come out of the crimp die looking like an hour glass. But, what is proper.., is it something you just feel..?
    Also, how do you guys check for accuracy ?
    Do you shoot of a rest, and if you do, how do you do it.., with out getting "pinched" under the "rolling" action caused by recoil?

    Thanks fellows, Scott
    Scott,

    On crimping. Others can correct me if I am a off base on this, but I have learned that any amount of crimp is OK as long as it meets three criteria:

    Not too lightly crimped
    Not too heavily crimped
    The same amount on all rounds.

    The same amount on all rounds is pretty much self-explanatory. If your brass is all precisely the same length, the die adjustment (bullet seating and crimp die(s) the geometry of the crimp will be the same on all bullets. If the case mouths of all brass is the same degree of hardness/ductility, the grip on the bullet will be consistenly the same, round after round. You can check everything but the brass hardness is harder to see visually. If you keep all the brass in each lot of 50 (or 20 or 10 or 6 or 100, whatever lot/batch size you like) together and load them the same, their history will be similar and their hardness will be similar.

    Too heavily crimped is hard to do and easy to tell if you do. The brass is mis-shaped, the crimp cuts into sides of the bullet. And the case mouths will be cold-worked excessively and you will notice cracking around the mouth after relatively few firings (3 or 4 firings, you KNOW you are working the brass too much; 10 or more is to be expected.)

    Too lightly crimped is confirmed when a bullet fails either of these two tests.

    1) Your bullets jump crimp when subjected to recoil. This is just a practical matter because a bullet sticking out of the front end of your cylinder will lock up your revolver.

    2) Harder to tell. It has to do with internal ballistics. Smokeless powder requires high pressure to burn properly and consistently. The pressure immediatly after ignition is provided by the grip (friction and the mechanical hold) of the case on the bullet. After that, the inertia of the bullet and friction with the barrel regulates the pressure. If that initial grip, and the length of time the bullet is held before the bullet starts moving is variable, that variation has an effect that spreads your velocities wider and wider.

    Corrections to what I have written here are welcome. The foregoing is what I believe and what I have been taught, but I am no ballistician and crave new knowledge, especially appreciated is the reasoning behind that new knowledge.

    What do you mean by "getting pinched"?

    Lost Sheep

    Remember, only believe half of what you see and one quarter of what you hear. That goes double for what you get from the internet. Even this post. Maybe especially this post.

  3. #3
    Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    northern n.y. and much of the eastern U.S.
    Posts
    120

    Default ...getting pinched..

    First, thank you Lost Sheep.

    "... getting pinched..." That is, between the grip/grip frame and what ever I happen to be resting my hands/wrists on when I shoot. I think that it has to do with the positioning of the gun in my grip. I wrap my left hand around and under my right hand and the butt of the grip. The butt of the guns grip rests kind of in the palm of my left hand with the forward corner seated in between my middle finger and ring finger "hand bones." You know in my palm.
    Because of the "shortness" of the Blackhawk grip (compared to the Bisley) I grip with the middle and ring finger of my right hand, having my little finger under the butt of the grip.
    Shooting this way is no problem... off hand everything "rolls" just as a single action is supposed to. BUT, off the bench, there is no place for the butt to go as it "wants" to roll. No place except down into the palm of my hand which is being supported by either sand bags, or the bench itself, or as was the case yesterday, by a 6" dia. limb left in the wood from a topped tree taken for logs. I could just sit down on the other heavier branches and rest my wrists over the limb that was laying horizontaly in front of me about chest high. Again, my hands had support, thus resistance, and when I shot, my little 45 "tried" to do it's natural thing which resulted in a feeling Jesus could relate to.
    I'm seriously thinking about a "Bisley grip conversion" kit. My thinking is that the longer grip would keep my grip "around" the gun rather than "around and under" the gun.

  4. #4
    Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Anchorage
    Posts
    505

    Default Yeah, happens to me, too.

    Quote Originally Posted by 358wsm View Post
    First, thank you Lost Sheep.

    "... getting pinched..." That is, between the grip/grip frame and what ever I happen to be resting my hands/wrists on when I shoot. ...
    You're welcome, 358wsm,

    That's what I thought. I tried shooting that way, too. Same results. Even with a hand-filling grip, if I rest the butt of the gun on a shooting bench it gets scratched up or my hand does.

    I solved it by resting my forearms only, letting the gun be cantilevered out far enough to have some freedom of movement under recoil.

    Good luck, Good shooting.

    Lost Sheep

  5. #5
    Supporting Member Amigo Will's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Wrangell
    Posts
    7,600

    Default

    I agree on just resting your forearms or elbows to the bench and let the gun roll as normal.

  6. #6
    Sponsor ADfields's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Missing Palmer AK in Phonix AZ.
    Posts
    6,416

    Default

    Rest the front of the frame on a bag or in a crouch of cross sticks, not the grip. From a bench rest you’re for arms on the bench and the front of the frame in the bag. For a handgun I only rest on the one point of the gun and my arms become the other point.

    Andy

  7. #7
    Supporting Member Amigo Will's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Wrangell
    Posts
    7,600

    Default

    Be very carefull if resting on the front of the frame. Remember you get alot of gas blowing out between cylinder and forceing cone which can blow stuff back into your face if useing something like a sand bad as a rest.

  8. #8
    Moderator
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Midwest
    Posts
    4,431

    Default

    Getting pinched.

    What other are saying here is pretty much it. No hard surface for the gun, anywhere. Rest the bony part of your wrists on sand bags or dead cats stacked to the right height and if necessary rest the front of the gun barrel on similar. (The barrel between the cylinder gap and muzzle.) If you rest the muscular part of your forearms on the bag your arm will jump at each shot and this will bring another inconsistant element into the group. Getting the meat of the shooting hand under the gun butt smarts a little but it also changes the recoil signature for each shot. Handguns recoil with the bullet in the barrel and the muzzle must be at the same point for each bullet exit. Only your grip of the gun should restrain recoil to get good groups. For this reason slower loads generally shoot higher as the barrel dwell time is greater and more time allowed to flip the barrel from the third law function.

    Regarding crimp. It must be consistant from shot to shot and must be enough to keep the bullets in place. To test this put a round in the last turn of the cylinder and shoot five then measure its overall length. If it has moved at all increase the crimp. I would do this twice or ten shots and make sure it stays in place. Even though it doesn't come out enough to lock the cylinder up it shouldn't be allowed to move. Jacketed cannot be crimped as tight as the cast with a big crimp groove.

    To me the Bisley is just a much better grip frame to hang onto and better for the grip to dampen recoil. It is larger and doesn't have the frame ridge to hit the web of the hand when the muzzle turns straight up.

    I also like my handloads to be pretty. Polished clean and new looking trimmed to same length with equal crimp. Primers seated slightly below flush, and all the excess bullet lubed rubbed off and no seating stem marks. Life is too short to shoot ugly ammo.
    Is there nothing so sacred on this earth that you aren't willing to kill or die for?



  9. #9
    Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Wasilla
    Posts
    375

    Default

    "Life is too short to shoot ugly ammo."


    Words to live by!

  10. #10
    Moderator
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Midwest
    Posts
    4,431

    Default

    To try to answer some more question you have about practice.

    With heavy recoiling loads, don't shoot a lot of them. The gun will work the same with something more moderate. Stay away from the whimpy cowboy action ammo but shot a 100 to 200 of the 250 grain at about 800 to 900 fps. Then shoot about twenty or so of the serious duty stuff and stop. Also gripping a heavy hitter will bring quick arm fatigue and cause the shakes quickly, lower arm strength is the solution to this failing. Excercise of the right kind while watching TV or other sedate activities will help. Rolling up a weight with both hands with a broom stick and a rope attached to however much weight you like. Roll up slowly, then down slowly. This will tighten your groups with any handgun. Bore a hole through a 18" piece of 1" dowel and leave long enough to either stand or sit and attach to a sand bag or similar weight. You'll see.

    On Sights. I've never found a sight to give any better precision than the flat black square rear notch and square front post, or a ramp which looks liek a post from the rear. That one ragged hole if it is the big aperature, there is no precision there. The shallow "V" and something big and visable up front (express) is the fastest but we give up some precision and distance. It isn' for hunting but good to carry along the river. You must practice it a lot to be proficient with it. I suppose that is true with any.

    Do not just burn up ammo hoping to get better. You must strive to make every shot a ten ring hit or they will just scatter. More rounds per hour isn't good practice. Aimed fire while concentrating the vision on the front sight and maintaining sight alignment throughout the trigger squeeze. Remember any jerk can pull a trigger, only a shooter can make a clean break. Remember we're all in this together.

    Oh, yeah, do your shooting practice on your own two feet, not your duff.
    Is there nothing so sacred on this earth that you aren't willing to kill or die for?



Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •