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Thread: BGCSB meet in Fairbanks

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    Member muskeg's Avatar
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    Default BGCSB meet in Fairbanks

    Any updates?

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    Quote Originally Posted by muskeg View Post
    Any updates?
    Clark Cox...DNR dude in charge of developing the state lands concessions contracts reported that the cost of administering the program would be $370K per year.

    That's just the salary of 4 State employees....it is NOT the 'actual' annual costs.

    The actual annual costs....which Clark did not report but he has considered and estimated would be about 1.7 million.

    Apparently Clark has a hard time telling 'everything' what he knows and he is being a good little minion and intentionally misleading the public so the 'program' wont get derailed.


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    Member BRWNBR's Avatar
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    might as well have introduced yourself avlanche..and clark said about 400 thousand.
    its getting dirty...guys are startin' to get more and more worried. no one has a back up plan in case this don't go thru, BOG is sittin' in the wings ready to cut a pile of non resident hunting opportunity. SO guides can't control themselves so someone else is going to and no ones gonna like it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BRWNBR View Post
    might as well have introduced yourself avlanche..and clark said about 400 thousand.
    its getting dirty...guys are startin' to get more and more worried. no one has a back up plan in case this don't go thru, BOG is sittin' in the wings ready to cut a pile of non resident hunting opportunity. SO guides can't control themselves so someone else is going to and no ones gonna like it.
    Didn't somebody actually say that this concessions program is not designed to be nor can it be implemented to be a human management tool or even a game managment tool...think that was Joe Want.

    I believe it was BOG/BGCSB member Spraker the statement that the BOG sees the concessions program as a game management tool.

    The human management tool is the 10% non-resident OPPORTUNITY law which will be introduced at the next statewide BOG meeting.

    The 10% non resident opportunity law solves all the problems at is is the only 'tool' that will satisfy what the BGCSB and the proposed state lands concessions contracting never will.


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    Member muskeg's Avatar
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    Default Adf&g

    Will take the hard line ... like I mentioned before in Unit 1 many Guide collectively went to the USFS to 'limit' us ... beacuse the ADF&G was baout to take the hard line and just close our Brown Bear season by Emergency Order. There would have been no hunt Resident or Non-Resident.

    The strict USFS rules put in place (that gave many Guide 0 Bears, based on past use) at least stopped the closure.

    Jake are you at the meet?

    Avalance ... are you at the meet? and 10% statewide on all species? or are you talking more Micro-Managing?

  6. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by muskeg View Post
    ...10% statewide on all species? or are you talking more Micro-Managing?

    Thats statewide all species not more than 10% of the opportunity goes to non residents.


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    ya i was there and ya spraker did mention the concession program as some sort of managment tool.
    But i did hear from some of the guys that the BOG is holding off on the ten percent non res opportunity restriction until next session to see if this concession thing will go thru, if it does they are thinking it will take care of the problem on its own without having to impliment the ten percent deal...IF the concession dont' go thru or gets held up in court..which it will...then i think we'll see just about every non resdient hunt state wide go to drawing. Except maybe predator control areas for bears...i can see them leaving that wide open.
    Which in turn will put most guides out of business anyway, now they'll have to compete in the draw for un guided hunters for some specie as well as other guided hunters. It'll be nasty, residents would probably like it. air taxi prices will go up, they'll be doing less flying...lets face it the guys droppin' coin to hunt here are non res hunters. Lotta money rolls in the door from them.
    SO this is what i see....if the concession deal dont' go thru lol

    most all non res hunting goes to draw....(which would include outa state buddies and relatives)
    air taxi prices go up...
    guided hunt prices go down....
    resident tag fees hit the roof....
    resident license fees hit the roof...
    non res tag fees hit the roof...

    this would be a huge loss of income and they'll make the changes to bring in those extra costs somewhere...so i'm sure the love will just get passed on to us (residents)
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    Member Vince's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BRWNBR View Post
    most all non res hunting goes to draw....(which would include outa state buddies and relatives)
    air taxi prices go up...NOT sure i agree with this. would mean more available for DIY who now have a hard time getting into areas or booking flights that are reseved for others.
    guided hunt prices go down....Dosn't this cancel out some of the other?
    resident tag fees hit the roof....?????? you mean i might pay 20.00bucks above the free now?

    resident license fees hit the roof...HOW so? NON res will still apply the same for the draw perhaps in more numbers now


    non res tag fees hit the roof...SO? you just dropped your prices again to offset that cost?

    this would be a huge loss of income and they'll make the changes to bring in those extra costs somewhere...so I'm sure the love will just get passed on to us (residents)

    Okay bear maybe i am missing something here. but i am not seeing your justification.
    "If you are on a continuous search to be offended, you will always find what you are looking for; even when it isn't there."

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    Member bushrat's Avatar
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    Default thanks for fill-in

    Appreciate greatly the reports from the meeting from you guys that were there.

    Jake, if non-residents take 45% of the dall sheep now, and this concession thing went through, what do you think we are then realistically looking at as far as the concessions plan reducing that non-resident harvest? What would it realistically drop down to?

    Lots to dwell on with this. Off the cuff, seems like if the 10% non-res opportunity ever went through that the "gap" in the whole air taxi thing would be filled by residents and prices would stay about the same. Either way though, both resident and non-res license/tag fees need to go up substantially, and that is gonna happen down the line regardless, should have happened already.

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    Member muskeg's Avatar
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    Default 10 % cap

    I am confused how it would work here in SE. The Black Bear hunt as well as the Brown Bear hunt is a non-resident hunt.

    Currently residents only kill less than 10% of the Black Bear that are killed. Similar to Brown Bear . Residents just don't hunt them.

    Mt Goat (registration hunt areas) is about the same way. Low % resident kill.

    *****************

    Jake how about the 'supervision' issue? Were you in on that discussion? Any changes?

    Transporter (vessel) issue?

    Master Guide requirement changes?

    Guide school requirements for incoming Asst Guides?

  11. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by BRWNBR View Post
    see if this concession thing will go thru, if it does they are thinking it will take care of the problem on its own without having to impliment the ten percent deal...
    Cmon BB....you know the rules....guides are not going to be limited within the concessions......one guide can have up to 3 concessions.


    The intent of the concessions program is to make fewer guides NOT guide fewer clients.


  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by muskeg View Post
    I am confused how it would work here in SE. The Black Bear hunt as well as the Brown Bear hunt is a non-resident hunt.

    Currently residents only kill less than 10% of the Black Bear that are killed. Similar to Brown Bear . Residents just don't hunt them.

    Mt Goat (registration hunt areas) is about the same way. Low % resident kill.

    *****************

    Jake how about the 'supervision' issue? Were you in on that discussion? Any changes?

    Transporter (vessel) issue?

    Master Guide requirement changes?

    Guide school requirements for incoming Asst Guides?

    Overly's asst. guide school curriculum went through.

    OHH yah....BGCSB continued APHA's subcommitte on the concessions program....guess they don't believe in public participation and Clark must have committed to continue to work with APHA


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    Member BRWNBR's Avatar
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    vince, i'll try to remember all you asked about..
    air taxi prices will go up, sure theres more opportunity for DIY hunts...but not really. theres not that many area sealed up by guides, only a few that people yell about. But with less NON resdient hunters in the field, and those are the guys willing to fork out the coins, they'll have to raise their costs to stay in business to compesate for the loss of business.
    The guides on the other hand...they'll probably drop prices because they'll have the competition of other guides trying to get a grab on the 10 percent of the tags... i see where this gets confusing...lol

    you'll probably be up a bit from 20 dollars...lol i'd guess it'd hit at least a hundred or more depending on how they slice up the pie...cause now 90 percent of the of the guys buying tags are residents, no matter how high they take the non resident tags it won't make up for the loss.

    this is all just hypothetical, you don't have to agree with it, we all see different writing on the wall, these are just my thoughts.
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    the concession limiting non res op.

    When we apply for these little things, we'll have to apply for a cetian number of hunts or clients each year in a given area. So they'll be able to pick who gets an area and some of that might be based on the number of clients proposed. So now with us being able to take unlimited clients, we'd have permit stipuations that regulated the number we could take.

    I really don't think residents would fill the gap that non resident hunters would leave with the air taxi business....prices may go up...may go down..like say this is all hypothectial.
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    heard some talk on the master guide deal..maybe requiring more letters or recommendation or a higher percentage of them being postitive, rather than 10 outa 25, but i never heard a ruling on any of that.
    And i missed the supervision stuff.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BRWNBR View Post
    the concession limiting non res op.

    When we apply for these little things, we'll have to apply for a cetian number of hunts or clients each year in a given area. So they'll be able to pick who gets an area and some of that might be based on the number of clients proposed. So now with us being able to take unlimited clients, we'd have permit stipuations that regulated the number we could take.

    I really don't think residents would fill the gap that non resident hunters would leave with the air taxi business....prices may go up...may go down..like say this is all hypothectial.

    Are you assuming the state is going to fund a concessions program for guides AND implement the nonresident 10% opportunity law?

    Tag or permit allocations to a guide, no matter how anyone tries to implement that 'concept', wont stand up to the equal use clause.

    Non residents draw a tag....then they hire a guide. Same way it works for 'air-taxis'.....if that makes any sense.

    The other thing is we seem to keep going round and round about the 'economic' interest of some in taking public resources as if it matters. The bottom line reality is; economic interest of special interest does not matter.

    There is no justification; no legal discrimination possible, that could legally establish for 'economic' interests when it comes to making public resources available to....the public.

    Remember.....a guide license is an occupational license.....no different than that of a hairdresser or a pilot. And that is all a 'guide' license is.

    No law is going to be made or hold up in court that makes a guide license into some kind of an entitlement to an allocation of public resources.


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    Member muskeg's Avatar
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    Default question ?

    Quote Originally Posted by AVALANCHE View Post
    No law is going to be made or hold up in court that makes a guide license into some kind of an entitlement to an allocation of public resources.
    That's exactly what the USFS does on National Forest lands. They require a St of Ak Guides license (and other in house requirements) before they will issue you any hunts.

    How will you 10% cap work in SE where there is no res / non-res competition for hunts or draws in place?

    The competition for Deer on POW island is between POW Island resident and other AK residents. Non-Ak resident kill is so minimal it's a non issue. The Fed Law currently favors a POW Island Res over an non-POW Island Resident by restricting the season on the Non-POW Island resident (even when the season is open by St of AK law).

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    i think they'll do either the conccessions OR the limited 10 percent opportunity.
    What i was told was BOG is waiting to see if the concession stuff goes thru before puttin' the crimp on non res stuff.
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  19. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by BRWNBR View Post
    might as well have introduced yourself avlanche..and clark said about 400 thousand.
    its getting dirty...guys are startin' to get more and more worried. no one has a back up plan in case this don't go thru, BOG is sittin' in the wings ready to cut a pile of non resident hunting opportunity. SO guides can't control themselves so someone else is going to and no ones gonna like it.
    There are a number of alternatives, however, they don't stand a "prayer" of being implemented until they are the lesser of two evils from a financial standpoint - either from the prospective of guides or air-taxi operators. Not much different the implementation of "minimums" on some portions of Kodiak or the point system used in the Yukon to reduce the number (or percentage) of sows being harvested.
    Joe (Ak)

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    Member tccak71's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BRWNBR View Post
    the concession program as some sort of management tool.
    Could you guys provide information or a link detailing the "concession program?" I think I understand limiting non-res to 10%, but what is the concession program? What are the guides conceding?

    Tim

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