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Thread: To rebarrel or not?

  1. #1
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    Default To rebarrel or not?

    I have an older .338 Win. Mag that I have been working on a load for and have it hitting ok out to 500yds. About 12-14" with 3 shot group. As it is an older rifle, I was wondering if a new barrel would be in order? And if so, how difficult is it to change the barrel on a Savage? Also, I have put about 250 rounds through it since I have owned it, I have no idea how many before that, about how many rounds will it "handle"? I have been told any where from 1,000 to 10,000 and to "depends on how clean you keep it". Just curious. THANX!
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  2. #2

    Default Barrel

    Not sure what model Savage you have. But many Savages are pretty light and weight helps in shooting longer ranges. The trigger may need to be adjusted for shooting at this range. Optic clarity, cross-hair size and repeatability are paramount for shooting at this range, as well as very good mounts. Since this is/was a used gun a crown check is in order. Clean the bore and have it scoped to see if it has problems. Your load should use the premium bullets of high Ballistic Coeffecient. But, on a Savage at current prices I don't believe I would consider a re-barrell.

    Then when all this is done and does or doesn't work; you might consider that this rifle wasn't designed to shoot/hunt at 500 yds. Then it might not be the rifle at all; some people just aren't long range shooters. Let someone else try to acheive a better group with your rifle.
    Then if everthing else fails, consider tradeing for a rifle built for longer range shooting.
    Good Luck !!
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  3. #3
    Member pinehavensredrocket's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brav01 View Post
    Not sure what model Savage you have. But many Savages are pretty light and weight helps in shooting longer ranges. The trigger may need to be adjusted for shooting at this range. Optic clarity, cross-hair size and repeatability are paramount for shooting at this range, as well as very good mounts. Since this is/was a used gun a crown check is in order. Clean the bore and have it scoped to see if it has problems. Your load should use the premium bullets of high Ballistic Coeffecient. But, on a Savage at current prices I don't believe I would consider a re-barrell.

    Then when all this is done and does or doesn't work; you might consider that this rifle wasn't designed to shoot/hunt at 500 yds. Then it might not be the rifle at all; some people just aren't long range shooters. Let someone else try to acheive a better group with your rifle.
    Then if everthing else fails, consider tradeing for a rifle built for longer range shooting.
    Good Luck !!
    actually that is really good advice.......because many rifles (even heavy barreled ones) are not capable of accurate long range work. putting that aside, a savage doesn't carry the resale to justify a "barrel job". thats why aftermarket selection is limited for barrels, stocks, and other accuracy items check with a custom barrel maker such as shilen, lilja, obermeyer etc, as a new barrel will cost more that $450.00. you may be better served with a new rifle.

    no offence meant to you or your rifle!
    happy trails.
    jh

  4. #4
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    Default glass bed it!

    If you are do it yourself guy spend $20 and glass bed it. It will probably help the accurracy at minimum cost and is well worth the gamble. Glass bedding should never hurt anything and will make the stock stronger at a minimum.


    Quote Originally Posted by ICURN View Post
    I have an older .338 Win. Mag that I have been working on a load for and have it hitting ok out to 500yds. About 12-14" with 3 shot group. As it is an older rifle, I was wondering if a new barrel would be in order? And if so, how difficult is it to change the barrel on a Savage? Also, I have put about 250 rounds through it since I have owned it, I have no idea how many before that, about how many rounds will it "handle"? I have been told any where from 1,000 to 10,000 and to "depends on how clean you keep it". Just curious. THANX!
    Living the urban lifestyle so I can pay my way and for my family's needs, and support my country. And you?
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  5. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by ICURN View Post
    I have an older .338 Win. Mag that I have been working on a load for and have it hitting ok out to 500yds. About 12-14" with 3 shot group. As it is an older rifle, I was wondering if a new barrel would be in order? And if so, how difficult is it to change the barrel on a Savage? Also, I have put about 250 rounds through it since I have owned it, I have no idea how many before that, about how many rounds will it "handle"? I have been told any where from 1,000 to 10,000 and to "depends on how clean you keep it". Just curious. THANX!
    Where to start?

    500 yds really isn't all that far. There are a lot of off the shelf rifles these days that should be able to shoot a 6" group at 500 yds. I just picked up a Rem Sendero 300 RUM that will shoot a 1" group at 350 yds (according to the previous owner) with factory ammo and no mods to the rifle.

    Having said that, there can be any number or combination of issues with an older rifle, some already mentioned. The older savages were not very good rifles. The newer ones shoot very well on average and I dont know when exactly things changed. There are a lot of long range shooters (500 yds being short range to them) who like to build off the newer savage actions. However, they will get a good smith to do it and get the action trued and blueprinted. But that will cost a few $$$ and a custom barrel installed will run around $500. If your thinking of doing it yourself, I believe there are a couple of barrel makers that will make you a chambered, threaded barrel and you may be able to install it yourself on a newer Savage?

    If you want to know the condition of your bore, then get it bore scoped by a smith who knows what he's looking at. It'll cost about $25 or so. Before getting scoped, make sure the barrel is completely clean of copper. Wipeout is the best bet for that. If you get the rifle scoped you might just have the smith give it an all around check up?

    Or... you can just go out and get a new rifle...

    Good shooting

    -MR

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    Default

    I’m not addressing whether another barrel will help your long range scores, BUT,,,,,

    Reportedly, and I have to say “reportedly”, because I ain’t done it myself, Savage barrels are easy to change, and many people do it themselves, using a wrench for the barrel nuts, and a headspace gage or a factory load, to set them. They make switch-barrel rifles, sometimes even changing the bolt and other parts.

    Do a search for “Savage Rifle Barrels”.

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  7. #7
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    brav01, THANX for answering my questions with questions, it makes me think. So...OK... This rifle is a model 110 (I believe, I am at work right now) with a solid walnut stock, trigger pull is a little heavy, I could and will try to adjust that. The optics are an older Leupold 3-9X40 with a very clear view, I have not checked the repeatability, yet. I reload with Hornady 225gr SPBT and they seem to do well with 73gr of H4831 and CCI primers out of Winchester brass. It may be that I simply got to much gun, but it sure is fun to shoot. At 100 yds it is a snug 1" to 1.5" group at 3" high top dead centre. The only thing I would like to get done is to have the barrel scoped. Anyone on the Peninsula do this?

    pinehavensredrocket, no offense taken, this is the first Savage I have owned, just because it was "well priced", I gave $400 for it WITH the Leupold on it. I usually go with Winchester or Remington, with the occasional Marlin for rifles and my shotguns cover the whole gamut with Mossberg, Remington, Winchester leading the pack there also. I just LOVE to shoot and enjoy being able to shoot well. THANX for the advice and info. ICURN
    Nurses... Bustin' ours... Savin' yours

  8. #8
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    ICURN

    Based on your claimed results with your groups at 100 yards. If you take your worst group of 1.5" you should be shooting a 7.5" group at 500 yards. That would be a great group for an average hunting rifle and something that would put a deadly shot in the vitals of nearly all Alaska game.

    A little training work on your rest, trigger squeeze and breathing for those long distance shots at the range will make huge improvements on your target.

  9. #9

    Default Rifle

    I wasn't tryin' to dis your rifle or shooting skils. There were many variables unknown. The trigger could/should be adjusted to around 3-3 1/2 lbs as a start; very much lighter and gloves/cold weather present a problem. Glass bedding shouldn't hurt and would probably help. I believe you'll find the cross-hairs on a standard 3x9 anything scope a little coarse at 500 yds for precision work; The Leupold is a quality scope however.
    The fact your rifle shoots a 1-1.5 inch group at 100 yds would lead me to believe that load/rifle improvement should be the first thing adressed; as these numbers translated at 500 yds are not conduceive to good groups.
    As far as price the rifle was well in the money; factoring in the scope. Changeing barrells in a Savage isn't a big deal it just is cost prohibitive when compared to the overall cost of the firearm and the resale value of the rifle. I too have a SS Savage 116 weather warrior in 338 WM and it has served me well; I tend to limit shoots with it to under 300 yards. Not because it won't shoot farther but it's set up with a 1 3/4-5 x scope and I consider that my limit with that scope. Though I've never taken an animal with it past 215 yds.
    " Americans will never need the 2nd Amendment, until the government tries to take it away."

    On the road of life..... Pot holes keep things interesting !

  10. #10

    Default Not SO

    Quote Originally Posted by marshall View Post
    ICURN

    Based on your claimed results with your groups at 100 yards. If you take your worst group of 1.5" you should be shooting a 7.5" group at 500 yards. That would be a great group for an average hunting rifle and something that would put a deadly shot in the vitals of nearly all Alaska game.

    A little training work on your rest, trigger squeeze and breathing for those long distance shots at the range will make huge improvements on your target.
    A 1.5 inch group at 100 yards doesn't translate into a 7.5 inch group at 500 yards. As the numbers aren't lineal.
    " Americans will never need the 2nd Amendment, until the government tries to take it away."

    On the road of life..... Pot holes keep things interesting !

  11. #11
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    brav01... I know you are not trying to "dis my rifle or shooting skills" I appreciate the help and answers to my questions. I am an amature with heavy calibres as the heaviest owned before up here was a .270 Remington 700. my trigger, by the way, is heavy at about 4-5lbs. When I finish my stretch, I will be out to the range and shooting again, AFTER I adjust my trigger. THANX again to all who replied to this amatures questions.
    Nurses... Bustin' ours... Savin' yours

  12. #12

    Default trigger adjustment

    Trigger adjustment is critical if you want good groups. You can see the effect it had on my Ruger.
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    Default so what would it be?

    1.5" @ 100 = ?? @ 500

    according to my understanding and math... it is 7.5"

    Not trying to stirr up a hornets nest, just making sure I have the right info trapped inside the mushy thing between my ears.

  14. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by rdklinak View Post
    1.5" @ 100 = ?? @ 500

    according to my understanding and math... it is 7.5"

    Not trying to stirr up a hornets nest, just making sure I have the right info trapped inside the mushy thing between my ears.
    It doesn't work that way. The farther down range you get, the more factors like wind, mirage, parallax, load variation in ES, etc affect the POI. As you go down range, these factors increase exponentially, not linearly. At 500 yds it isn't so bad, but it's still a slight exponential increas over 100, 200, 300...

    Try it some time.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by brav01 View Post
    A 1.5 inch group at 100 yards doesn't translate into a 7.5 inch group at 500 yards. As the numbers aren't lineal.
    Sorry but I disagree, it is linear.

    Knowing what MOA represents allows us to calculate its value to any distance. Six inches is 1/600th of 100 yards. (100 yards x 36 inches) / 6 inches = 600

    The value of MOA at 100 yards is 1.047 inches. At 50 yards it's 1/2 the 100 yard value and twice as much at 200 yards. It's 5 times at 500 yards and so on. Therefor 1.5 inches at 100 yards is actually (1.5 x 5) x 1.047 = 7.85 inch group at 500 yards. Sorry I was off by slightly more than a quarter of an inch at 500 yards, I was trying to keep it simple.

    In your later response you mention wind. That cannot be considered when determining the accuracy of a rifle. It can however be considered in the ability of the shooter.

    My comment was about a group that he shot at 100 yards. I didn't intend on considering wind along the path of the bullets trajectory. That is a different subject all together.

  16. #16

    Default Nope

    Quote Originally Posted by marshall View Post
    Sorry but I disagree, it is linear.

    Knowing what MOA represents allows us to calculate its value to any distance. Six inches is 1/600th of 100 yards. (100 yards x 36 inches) / 6 inches = 600

    The value of MOA at 100 yards is 1.047 inches. At 50 yards it's 1/2 the 100 yard value and twice as much at 200 yards. It's 5 times at 500 yards and so on. Therefor 1.5 inches at 100 yards is actually (1.5 x 5) x 1.047 = 7.85 inch group at 500 yards. Sorry I was off by slightly more than a quarter of an inch at 500 yards, I was trying to keep it simple.

    In your later response you mention wind. That cannot be considered when determining the accuracy of a rifle. It can however be considered in the ability of the shooter.

    My comment was about a group that he shot at 100 yards. I didn't intend on considering wind along the path of the bullets trajectory. That is a different subject all together.
    When shooting a bullet with a high BC for caliber the bullet may not be asleep when it reaches a point of reference.
    FOR EXAMPLE;
    When shooting a heavy bench varmint rifle at a target 400 yards away the bullet may not have stabilized at 100 yards(went to sleep). My and many other rifles would shoot a 3/4"-1" group at 100 yards, yet would shoot a 3/8" group at 200 yards. In my particular rifle the bullets actually went into a "ZERO" group at 236 yards. The net results were that at 400 yards my rifle shot 1-1 1/2" groups. This is common; It's also the reason 100 yard Benchshooters ALMOST always use flat based bullets as do most 200 yard Bench shooters, and Hunter class. This is why nearly everyone will tell you that a Remington Cor-Lokt bullet shoots well from their rifle. The flat base and 6-6.5 ogive are well designed for a 100 yard zero. As the range increases the ogive stretches to 7-8 and the addition of a boat-tail decreases drag and increases down-range velocity.

    My point being he might be able to improve his 100 yard group with the change of bullet design and yet that still wouldn't improve his down range accuracy(read group).
    " Americans will never need the 2nd Amendment, until the government tries to take it away."

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  17. #17
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    brav01

    Your explanation is as correct as mine. However, we are referring to two different topics.

    Mine is a simple explanation of MOA point of impact calculations.

    Your explanation deals with aerodynamics and flight of a bullet shape that may or may not be optimized for a particular twist in a rifle at a velocity or distance of a target in question. Your comment has teeth but doesn't address the Montana Rifleman comment.

    His comment "A 1.5 inch group at 100 yards doesn't translate into a 7.5 inch group at 500 yards. As the numbers aren't lineal."

    I disagreed, MOA calculations are in fact linear, simple math nothing more.

    Point of impact such as your brief have many factors as you have clearly described. Your brief may point to a poor bullet selection for the given rifle or load chosen for the distance in question, no argument from me.

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    WOW!!!!!!... This FatBoy is learning a LOT about reloading on here... Good stuff, guys
    Nurses... Bustin' ours... Savin' yours

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    Default what he said...

    A fully agree that much more goes into groups at distance than just solving a simple math problem. AND an average 3 shot 2.75" group at 600 from my sporter weight 338 with 250 SMK's from prone off of a towel roll whole heartedly agree. Haven't checked my records in a while, but that's an average over an estimated 2500+ rounds down range.

    Sadly my 225 partitions only average just over 1.5 MOA at that range. But I'm working on a new load to see if I can shrink that a bit.



    Quote Originally Posted by marshall View Post
    brav01

    Your explanation is as correct as mine. However, we are referring to two different topics.

    Mine is a simple explanation of MOA point of impact calculations.

    Your explanation deals with aerodynamics and flight of a bullet shape that may or may not be optimized for a particular twist in a rifle at a velocity or distance of a target in question. Your comment has teeth but doesn't address the Montana Rifleman comment.

    His comment "A 1.5 inch group at 100 yards doesn't translate into a 7.5 inch group at 500 yards. As the numbers aren't lineal."

    I disagreed, MOA calculations are in fact linear, simple math nothing more.

    Point of impact such as your brief have many factors as you have clearly described. Your brief may point to a poor bullet selection for the given rifle or load chosen for the distance in question, no argument from me.
    Last edited by rdklinak; 03-17-2009 at 22:13. Reason: adding text

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    Beings you admit to it being an older rifle and that it sounds like you have not stripped the barrel CLEAN of COPPER, I would try that FIRST before worring about rebarreling. Sweets 7.62, Barnes CR10 work wonders but use them per directions. I have "saved" several guys guns just by cleaning all the copper out of the barrel. I did one gun , a 300 H&H, that CHUNCKS of copper coming out when I cleaned. NO KIDDING, CHUNKS !! And it went right back to driving tacks for the guy.... and he claimed to be a smith.... Clean it first and don't give up on it till the patches say it is clean.... not when you get bored with the cleaning process. FULLCURL09

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