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Thread: more revelations about SFW

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    Member homerdave's Avatar
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    Default more revelations about SFW

    generally i won't post a link to another site, hopefully this will stand moderator scrutiny, i could post all the links, but the dialogue is also informative.

    http://www.monstermuleys.info/dcforu...ID5/13663.html

    go right to about post 90... post 96 is tax returns for SFW... makes one wonder what SFW/SFH have planned for alaska...
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    Member Chisana's Avatar
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    Quite a bit of information in that link. Not sure what to make of it all, but I got bad vibes from it. The more I learn about SFW the more I tend to believe that they are all about catering to a very small group with a very specialized agenda that is not in line with the beliefs held by most Alaskans.

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    Member martentrapper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chisana View Post
    . The more I learn about SFW the more I tend to believe that they are all about catering to a very small group with a very specialized agenda that is not in line with the beliefs held by most Alaskans.
    Somehow this statement seems totally applicable to Backcountry Hunters Assoc.
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    Member Chisana's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by martentrapper View Post
    Somehow this statement seems totally applicable to Backcountry Hunters Assoc.
    On a superficial level I can see how one might reach that conclusion, but I see some differences.

    The main difference is that ABHA is an Alaska run organization and the national entity is not pulling the strings up here. Alaskans set the agenda for ABHA. With SFW/SFH the national organization is running the show with some washed up Alaskan politicians as local figure heads. SFW/SFH is the Defenders of Wildlife of hunting organizations. It is a predominantly outside group trying to tell Alaskans what to do.

    ABHA has broad interests in enhancing and protecting habitat and promoting sustainable game populations for Alaska hunters and trappers. I see SFW/SFH as a group who's main goal is to promote predator control and to change the "corporate culture" at ADF&G to make predator control the Division of Wildlife Conservation's first priority. That is a very narrow special interest based focus. Predator control is only one tool in the toolbox for managers, but it seems to be the only one SFW/SFH cares about. Their website really doesn't mention much other than predator control.

    In addition, much of the current focus of SFW/SFH seems to be about promoting non-resident opportunities. I do not see a need for another group doing that. We are losing enough to non-residents without any extra help in that department.

    ABHA may be small, but they are making an impact and at this BOG meeting they are getting as much press as bigger organizations like AOC. I see them at least winning the battle for the hearts and minds if not always the BOG votes.

    Thank you for the opportunity to compare and contrast these two organizations.

  5. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by martentrapper View Post
    Somehow this statement seems totally applicable to Backcountry Hunters Assoc.
    MT...what's your rationale? Are you a card carrying member of SFW-A? Did you actually read that thread Homerdave linked to?


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    Member Vince's Avatar
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    here is a funny story...

    I moved my wife up here from southern Idaho, 2006.

    she had never been hunting before.how ever her ex was a elk hunter

    she LOVES IT..


    the other day while sitting here reading and swearing at my computer during the BOG meeting she asked me to explain it to her... as soon as i said ..


    SFW... she said OH *****. not them...they will try to take over..so in the most layman's terms i found out that things are not as they are portrayed
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    Member BRWNBR's Avatar
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    good post chisana, that was well broke down and not filled with emotional garbage, i think i learned more about ABH and SFW that i did from all the other posts i've read. straight forward, i like that.
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    Member martentrapper's Avatar
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    Don't even know how to get a SFW card. Don't carry the cards for most of the org's I support. Maybe the NRA card if it gets me rental car discounts.
    SFW-A.....caters to a small group, specialized agenda, not in line with "most" Alaskans.
    BHA-A..........same 3 things could be said.
    That's my rationale. No, didn't read the link, but have read the BHA national site.
    SFW isn't active out here. You guys who live in the pop. centers can duke it out with them.
    I can't help being a lazy, dumb, weekend warrior.......I have a JOB!
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    Moderator LuJon's Avatar
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    I have spent a good bit of my spare time trying to figure out exactly which group to join and support. I came to a cold realization that there is no group that represents the majority of Alaskans. After a great deal of mental angst it occured to me that the reason behind this is that the majority of us have a fairly middle of the road stance between the pure commercialism of SFW, and the naturalistic views of ABHA. The simple facts that we don't have overwhelming feelings one way or the other. We want to be able to back pack hunt into pristine remote areas and not see a motorized vehicle aside from perhaps a jet contrail thousands of feet above. We also want to have moose to hunt from our ATV's close to home and a lot of em! We like that some people get to make their living guiding clients on their dream hunts. We are so "in the middle" we don't get involved. I have a lot of respect for both Mark Richards the ABHA president (bushrat) and Troy (tv321) who is an active supporter of SFW. I think they both want their view of what the best thing is for AK and its wildlife.
    I have no doubt that we need sportsman groups but man do we need a moderate group that is not so polarized! My spare time (what little of it I have these days) will go toward the Mat-Su AC, and I hope that more moderate folks will start getting involved! We shouldn't feel content to pay homage to the radical ends of the outdoors spectrum with hopes that between them they arrive at decisions that satify us....The majority!

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    Member Vince's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by martentrapper View Post
    SFW isn't active out here. You guys who live in the pop. centers can duke it out with them.
    I don't necessarily live in a population center either.. MT. and i sure as heck don't live any where near the current issues.

    but as i see it. as these org, kill off all the preds. the moose pops and caribou pop in the area's they wan to hunt will come back and open up for more general seasons... they will then start demanding tags based on their perceived roles in helping the ungulates rebound... then when they crash again they will turn on the subsistence users.. and push them out..again based on their perceived roles as game managers and the fine upstanding jobs they have done, and having the political support behind it.


    so what happens when they find out about the WACH? and hear your getting 5-15 a day? and your herd has a bad winter.....you don't HONESTLY think one of these Orgs wont run out "to help" you do you... again there goes your way of life..


    my feeling and growing understanding of these SFH, SFW, DOW, is that they are direct threat to the common subsistance users here in AK. Not to mention you start looking at the political networking going on, start watching some of the States vs feds arguments. and see these Orgs being plied in to the center of it all.. It is the Federal Gov, that is giving rural people; local preference over the resource. not the state... the state wants every one equal share to it. Including the new folks that just moved here and live in safeways parking lot in the winabago. It is the state politcal figure heads that is pushing these guys .... so lets say you now get 2 bou a year, because every one in anchorage is on there way up ... for theirs to...

    NOW, I am pretty sure that there is NOT any one in NOME that is a subsistence user, so you have no worries as i see it.....


    and if you cant see it for lack of coffee or other ... that last statement is dripping sarcasm to the extreme..

    thanks
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    Well, Vince, if you knew a little more about management out here I think you'd understand why I see little to worry about from SFW. You mentioned Wach, so we will use that. WACH ranges over a large area. Units 26, 23, 22, 24, sometimes even 21 and 18. So alot of federal land is under their feet, so to speak. A group like SFW just is not going to get anywhere on fed land as that is the realm of the Fed subsistence Board and the appropriate RAC's (regional advisory councils). Additionally, WACH management is also advised by the WACH working group. The local state AC's are also involved. The state and BoG and Fed Board listen to those groups and I really doubt SFW will get much play. You also have to realize that much of this country is open and preds, wolf and bear, are harvested at higher levels than maybe in a place like unit 16. GMU 22 has about the highest Griz harvest of any unit. Gosh, I hope that statement is accurate.......
    The day may likely come when the herd crashes, but I don't think folks out here will cry for pred control. Likely the herd will crash cuz of range dynamics, and that is the same thing that will make it come back.
    Us subsistence/sport/trophy hunters here in Nome don't get much crack at WACH anyway. Closest they come around here is about 70 miles away. They are mostly a winter hunt for us.
    Moose are doing fine and we are weeding out the non locals when necessary (legally) and letting them back in when numbers allow. Don't think there's many local folks that feel the need of the services provided by SFW.
    The 5 a day on WACH harvest has been around for a long time. Is it still a secret?
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  12. #12
    Member Vince's Avatar
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    Your Right MT i am the first to admit i don't know much about the management of it all... but i am trying to learn i have seen huge changes since i was a young man here learning to hunt. and some of them are ones we will be stuck with for a long time.

    i guess i feel that your saying that as long as it does not affect you and your way of life in Nome it is of little consequence?


    so let me ask. the 5 ad day has been there for years. i know i hunted out there while working in Nome, white mt, Elim, etc.... and very few people OUT side of you area did Hunt there...

    in the last 10-15 years the WACH has be come a place to go.

    the Haul road has become THE place to go. where 10-15 years ago... you could not.
    as things tighten up on this end. more and more people are looking north.
    already the transporters are full and booked for next season. and how many of them are there NOW compared to then?
    what do you look for in change 10 years from NOW? oh yeah they are discussing roads to Nome now as well. thats sure not going to bring additional hunters and cut into the way of life?

    soon you will be cut back just so that the sport hunting industry can keep the cash flowing... i hate to say it. not this year,,, how about next or the year after.. we never thought moose would crash in the valley, never thought the moose or bou would be over harvested in 13. never never...until it became popular and did.

    i am sitting here watching different user groups stab each other in the back trying to get a bigger piece. and the orgs are taking advantage of it. i have been hunting and fishing up here at least 35 of my 40 years, and the wider my eyes get the more change i see. and it is slowly moving north.
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    Default why

    What I'd like to know is why would anyone want to give money to an organization that puts so little of it back into worthwhile projects while at the same time takes tags out of the common draw? If you want to spend money on wildlife projects in Alaska, why not donate the money to ADF&G. Let them start a pool of money for habitat restoration that hunters can donate to. You'd get more bang for your buck, and wouldn't have to give any tags to an organization that specializes in raising money, but not spending much for the cause. SFW spent $885,870 on fund raising last year. They spent $453,704 on wildlife projects. (and who knows how much of that benefited wildlife and how much were administrative costs?) So which looks more important to SFW, fund raising, or wildlife?

    If you go to the thread at Monster Muleys, look at post #44. Don Peay, the founder of SFW makes this statement and asks this question.... "SFW has helped put $150 Million on the ground for wildlfie. Is that worth your $20 Membership ?"

    I'd call that a bald-faced lie first off. @$453,000 and change per year, it would take over 330 years to put $150 million on the ground. Now I'm guessing that if SFW was founded by Peay, it was founded sometime in his lifetime. Last time I looked, nobody had lived 330 years. Even if he was counting every penny spent by SFW, ($3,068,613 last year so we'll say they spent that every year, even tho they haven't) it would take over 48 years to spend that amount. I guess he's free with his lies when it comes to protecting his cash cow.

    So is it worth your $20 membership? So they can cozy up to the Gov, throw their weight around at the game department and start taking tags out of the common pool? (they got about 500 tags in Utah last year)

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    Default Thanks Lu'

    Quote Originally Posted by LuJon View Post
    I have spent a good bit of my spare time trying to figure out exactly which group to join and support. I came to a cold realization that there is no group that represents the majority of Alaskans. After a great deal of mental angst it occured to me that the reason behind this is that the majority of us have a fairly middle of the road stance between the pure commercialism of SFW, and the naturalistic views of ABHA. The simple facts that we don't have overwhelming feelings one way or the other. We want to be able to back pack hunt into pristine remote areas and not see a motorized vehicle aside from perhaps a jet contrail thousands of feet above. We also want to have moose to hunt from our ATV's close to home and a lot of em! We like that some people get to make their living guiding clients on their dream hunts. We are so "in the middle" we don't get involved. I have a lot of respect for both Mark Richards the ABHA president (bushrat) and Troy (tv321) who is an active supporter of SFW. I think they both want their view of what the best thing is for AK and its wildlife.
    I have no doubt that we need sportsman groups but man do we need a moderate group that is not so polarized! My spare time (what little of it I have these days) will go toward the Mat-Su AC, and I hope that more moderate folks will start getting involved! We shouldn't feel content to pay homage to the radical ends of the outdoors spectrum with hopes that between them they arrive at decisions that satify us....The majority!
    Thanks, you took the words from my mouth. I, too am looking for a "middle of the road" group. I like some views of both SFW and ABHA, but wildlife mgmt will take a dynamic approach; there is never a cure-all, so niether of those groups will ever be the best bet...nor will a moderate group. Best bet is to just get out and voice your concerns.

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    chisn & twodux looks like you have a firm grip on what is going on.

    It is 530 PUBLIC!!! TAGS,and they refuse to reveal to the public where the money is going??
    even though when they were trying to get this "non profit" Org. SFW started they promised to reveal where and how all the money would be spent. But now refuse to address the issue in any way shape or form.. Well that is mighty suspicious,, in my book any way..
    I live in Idaho and am right in the center of all this,,they have been trying to start chapters acrossed the whole west, and have met with much resistance after everything they have seen happen in Utah,, and rightly so..

    This is my they perception on how they tried to get there foot in the door in Idaho..
    PREDITOR CONTROL IMAGINE THAT,,, They held some sort of rally at the capitol building about delisting the wolves,, about all it amounted to was a bunch of sign waving and sneering at the wolf lovers acrossed the street,, it accomplished absolutely nothing for the state to gain control of wolf management,, the wolves are still running rampant care free as ever several years afterwards..
    But!!! it did make SFW look like big heroes to most hunters,, and folks were **** near beating each other up to be next in line to join .. funny thing is i haven't heard about one thing they have done to help get the wolf delisted since that day,, that's not to say they haven't,, it's just that i sure ain't heard about it,, and i have tried to keep a pretty close eye on the issue..
    well now that they are heroes and have some money in there pockets,, next step is back to the capitol,, not to wave signs though,, it's breakfast and lunch now,, and to explain how much money they can make for Idahos wildlife if they could just have a couple'a three highly coveted tags to auction off,,you know just like in Utah,, all they wanted is five or so tags when they started up there.. even though when they first started here they said they had no intentions on going after any tags.. so far they haven't gotten a single tag, and i doubt they will,, why??? because the good folks of Idaho got a purty good education from Utah..on how they operate..

    I also wonder why they refuse to publish what there intentions and goals are for Alaska or any other state for that matter.. some fella on a different thread on this board stated that SFW had better things to do with there time than to come on here and argue,, well they don't have to argue just come on here and state just HOW they intend on saving Alaskas wildlife then go away
    and let the folks decide for themselves.. or they can stick around and answer questions
    and put peoples mind at ease with all of the great ways they are going to help save Alaska's wildlife from extinction like some claim they did in Utah..

    if anybody would like more info on what other states are saying and doing
    about SFW,, just send me a pm,,

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    I had a good laugh this evening, a friend from Colarado called me, he's been checking out this site.
    He said, "I got to this thread, read it, then clicked on the 'Monstermulies' at the top of this thread, read posts 90-96, then went to the top of the thread, stopped at post 5, clicked on the Alaska 'site'". Then called me saying he had previously found the "DOW" rep coming out of the 'closet' posts. And no wonder why some Alaskans find issues confusing. Also said this site is probably being used/viewed by most 'animal rights groups'.
    I told him he is probably right.

  17. #17
    Member homerdave's Avatar
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    Exclamation

    gee... i must have missed your point... was there one?
    judging from posts on this site it seems there is very little support for SFW amongst most alaskan hunters... there are a couple of exceptions here, but they are getting louder and more lonely as facts are made available...
    Alaska Board of Game 2015 tour... "Kicking the can down the road"
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  18. #18

    Default Thanks for the Thread - got me active.

    I ran in to SFW last Sept in Cody Wy. - a few guys were sure talking SFW up there and what I was hearing struck a cord with me. Fish & Wildlife management only restrict hunters when wild life number get low. In-other- word, that was the only management tool they used.
    I moved to Kenai in 85. the horn law came in 1986 and is still in effect. I can not say any thing has changed since. Moose numbers seem the same to me.
    I just found this thread and so I have started looking and talking to Alaskans and went to the web site you guys have been talking about.
    I have only started reading things there but I am hearing some of the same that I heard in Cody. SFW was the organization that made a difference in that state.
    I want more game to hunt and am willing to do something about it. So, I joined SFW a few months back but have not had any contact with other Alaskan members. Their mailings talk about working with F&G to remove bears across form Anch to bring up the moose numbers.
    I want the moose numbers up in the Kenai area and if any one has a better plan than SFW, tell me. Just black and white ideals.

  19. #19
    Member AlaskaTrueAdventure's Avatar
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    Default Bear pop reduction...

    winnie,
    Why not just go bear hunting? You can shoot two a year, I think, on the Kenai.
    Why not encourage your friends to go out and kill them there black bears also.
    Protect a moose calf...kill a bear.
    Great exercise...great spring meat.....cheap off the roads and trails.
    See ya out there,
    Dennis
    AK TAGS

  20. #20
    Member Vince's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlaskaTrueAdventure View Post
    winnie,
    Why not just go bear hunting? You can shoot two a year, I think, on the Kenai.
    Why not encourage your friends to go out and kill them there black bears also.
    Protect a moose calf...kill a bear.
    Great exercise...great spring meat.....cheap off the roads and trails.
    See ya out there,
    Dennis
    AK TAGS

    gee dennis... isn't it easier to think a speacial group will come in and do it for you?
    "If you are on a continuous search to be offended, you will always find what you are looking for; even when it isn't there."

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