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Thread: Can legal open carry be prosecuted as disorderly conduct?

  1. #1
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    Default Can legal open carry be prosecuted as disorderly conduct?

    August 2008 Brad Krause was arrested at gunpoint in West Allis, Wisconsin while planting trees in his yard. There apparantly was not even a complaint, but a neighbor who called police (according to his testimony in court) to inquire if carrying a gun in a holster was legal. No complaint. Just a question.

    The next court hearing in his prosecution (yes, the police are continuing, even though open carry is specificaly allowed in Wisconsin law (by the same law that outlaws concealed carry) is Feb 17.

    Can you spell "abuse of police power"? Louisiana and New Orleans police confiscated means of self defense during Katrina's reign. A Pennsylvania sheriff voided a woman's concealed carry permit because she carried openly (warm weather clothing see thread
    http://concealedcarryforum.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=6767
    ) and apparantly a Palmer policeman issued a ticket for a man carrying openly inside the city limits. (post #28 in this thread http://forums.outdoorsdirectory.com/...ad.php?t=46152)
    Mistakes happen. Official perpetuation of those mistakes constitutes something. Harrassment? Not for me to say.

    As the post on http://concealedcarryforum.com/forum...TOPIC_ID=10380 said, "Gun Rights? Any Rights? What Rights?" in asking if government can get away with (even temporarily, and with or without apologies later) infringe the right to carry, the right to publish, the right to worship. Well, that last one hasn't been actively infringed lately, but the principle is the same. A constitutionally guaranteed civil right is a civil right. I should not have to be expecting to be arrested or ticketed or even asked to leave a public place when I exercise it.

    See also

    http://www.jpfo.org/articles-assd/wi-case-update.htm

    http://www.jpfo.org/alerts02/alert20081212b.htm

    http://www.jpfo.org/articles-assd/wi-case-update.htm


    I wonder if Wisconsin and Pennsylvania are the only places where this sort of nonsense is happening.


    If the links above don't work, paste these addresses into your web browser

    concealedcarryforum.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=6767
    forums.outdoorsdirectory.com/showthread.php?t=46152
    concealedcarryforum.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=10380
    concealedcarryforum.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=10380
    jpfo.org/articles-assd/wi-case-update.htm
    jpfo.org/alerts02/alert20081212b.htm
    jpfo.org/articles-assd/wi-case-update.htm


    Lost Sheep

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    Leaving your house with your hands attached to the ends of your arms is legal.

    However, if you use those hands to make someone (in the opinion of the authorities) feel threatened, you can be charged with a crime.


    The same is true in respect to your gun.

    Your "Intent" is the key and a it is tough word to define.

    "Intimidation" also comes into play.

    If that guy wore his gun for self defense, that if one thing; but if he carried his gun to intimidate someone then he has a legal problem.

    so I ask this: Was it his intent to intimidate someone?
    If not, someone over reacted.

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    If so, then the point that the mere possession of a firearm is considered "intimidating" is where we are so far off track.

    If you see someone with a claw hammer or a baseball bat (with no signs of threatening behavior), is that intimidating? (hammers and bats are often used as a weapon)

    If you see someone driving a car, is that intimidating? (cars kill more people that all other accidental means and yes, they kill people intentionally as well)

    But, having a gun just lying there on a table or tucked safely away in a holster is enough to absolutely freak some people out. The fear is misplaced, as any gun owner could tell you, but there's a deeper point. The gun grabbers have been working on this for years and most of us have just shrugged it off. They have removed all positive and knowledge based public education about guns and replaced it with non-stop negative gun media.

    The mere mention of the word "gun" in a public school will get a kid suspended and sent to see a shrink for psychological evaluation. Heaven forbid he draws a picture of one on the border of his scratch pad. That will get you expelled, thereby destroying any chance of that kid ever getting a good education and a successful career. It's basically a life sentence for showing any interest in a simple mechanical device that we call a gun. Yet it's just fine if he wants to have sex or smoke dope or help the girl he knocked up get an abortion without any parental involvement. Just as long as he doesn't become interested in guns.

    Nearly every media outlet paints guns in a negative, if not downright evil light. So the non-gun owners out there (about 2/3 of the US population these days) have been slowly brain-washed over the last couple decades in order to propagate the ultimate goal. And that is a totally unarmed populace. They are getting closer to this coming reality every day.

    Personally, I find it predictable that people who open carry are being chastised. It is a sad state of affairs. And it's another reason why concealed carry is often the preferred method. Not only do you not want the criminals to know who is armed, but you don't want any of the sheep to know either. The wolves must remain hidden in this society, and it's for their own good (but they don't even know it).
    Winter is Coming...

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    Well put Joat. How about this for an idea... Since the feds are going to throw $8b at the economy, how about they spend some of it on a National Firearm Safety and Orientation program. It could be incorporated into the school curriculum starting at the elementary level and be required nation wide. It could also be made available for parents, in fact they could be encouraged to attend if possible. It would provide jobs for instructors and promote safety. Two things that are part of Obamas Agenda. As it is now most kids are getting their "gun education" from hollywood, video games and the gun haters. Kids could learn gun safety from the get go and not end up being either afraid or mesmerized by guns.

    If the feds are so worried about kids and criminals getting their hands on guns by stealing them, the feds could start a Gun Safe Rebate program. Anyone who buys a gun safe could get the rebate. Gun safe sales would go up, this would stimulate the economy AND deter bad guys and kids from getting their hands on guns. Again, jobs and safety for kids, part of the Obama Agenda.

    But instead of this the feds give out rebate checks for a stupid digital converter box for tv's so kids can watch more hollywood BS gangsta garbage that does nothing but promote a guns being evil and desire to sock us with more gun laws that will do no good.

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    Default One clue

    Quote Originally Posted by bustedknee View Post
    truncated for brevity

    If that guy wore his gun for self defense, that if one thing; but if he carried his gun to intimidate someone then he has a legal problem.

    so I ask this: Was it his intent to intimidate someone?
    If not, someone over reacted.
    Thanks for pointing that out. I wondered who would go armed to do gardening if not to prove a point.

    One clue I spotted, though it was not highlighted in the coverage, is that the armed citizen had a recording device running during the encounter.

    It made me suspect that he intends to make an issue of the matter. If so, I say, good for him (depending on his motive for getting this into court). If his local law enforcement comes down on law-abiding citizens on their own property merely posessing in a non-threatening manner any tool of self-defense, they are in need of retraining.

    As Joat suggests, the 8 billion dollar stimulus package could be used for all sorts of good works. How about a campaign to cure hoplophobia?

    Lost Sheep.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lost Sheep View Post
    I wondered who would go armed to do gardening if not to prove a point.
    Makes no difference what activity one is involved in, you have the right to be armed and especially when on your own land. I can come up with at least a dozen "what ifs" for why I'd want to have a gun on me while out working on my own private property.


    As Joat suggests, the 8 billion dollar stimulus package ...
    Actually, that was Snyd who suggested that. Just giving credit where it is due.
    Winter is Coming...

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    Guys I don't want to get nitpicky or hijack this thread (because I truly believe this thread has merit and I fully support it) but the stimulus package is $800 BILLION not $8 BILLION and THAT has me more scared than any CCW issues.

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    Default Thanks Bushboy

    Quote Originally Posted by bushboy View Post
    Guys I don't want to get nitpicky or hijack this thread (because I truly believe this thread has merit and I fully support it) but the stimulus package is $800 BILLION not $8 BILLION and THAT has me more scared than any CCW issues.
    Thanks Bushboy,

    I am usually the one who gets nitpicky. Totall missed that one. .8 Trillion, 800 Billion.

    Who was it who said "A million here, a million there. It all adds up and pretty soon you are talking about REAL money."?

    Money can make for real trouble. Arrogance of power can too. Put them together and you can be in for a lot of mischief.

    It scares me, too.

    Lost Sheep.

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    JOAT:
    Boy you sure nailed it. Especially, the following quote.

    "Nearly every media outlet paints guns in a negative".

    In the last week I've seen two depictions on TV of the AR 15 used for hunting, in Full Auto. One was the "Monster Quest" show, about the Polar Bear that was shot in Fort Yukon. Apparently, the bear was shot by a number of people, but they only showed the guy carrying the AR, and pictured it in Full Auto mode. Ratta, tat, tat, tat, tat, etc.
    There was another, one that I can't remember where it came from, but it was the same, in that there was Full Auto, NOT Semi Auto Fire from an AR.

    These were BOTH blatant misrepresentations of actuality, obviously, intended to deceive people, because in either setting, the rifle would not have been Full Auto, unless it was illegal. So, they are either implying that it was legal, or that it's being done illegally.

    With that wrong impression, many will support additional anti-gun legislation.

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    Wisconsin: communist state
    Pennsylvania: communist state (people don't know it yet)
    Palmer: seems to have problems with weird cops
    Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocre minds. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. Albert Einstein

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    Quote Originally Posted by bushboy View Post
    Guys I don't want to get nitpicky or hijack this thread (because I truly believe this thread has merit and I fully support it) but the stimulus package is $800 BILLION not $8 BILLION and THAT has me more scared than any CCW issues.

    Thanks, ya, I am aware it is 800b. My bad typo.

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    For what it is worth problems with some cops trying to bend the law to go after anyone who carriers are not new.

    My dad was arrested in the early 80's for walking up to some cops with a gun open carry and holstered.

    One night my dad hears some shots in the early morning. Not knowing what was happening he went outside with a 357 holstered on his belt to look around. Bears were and still are common in the neighborhood so there was no reason to believe any thing wrong was happening. He walks around a little does not see or hear anything and walks back to the house. Just before he goes in he sees a city cop pull up on the street, assuming they are responding to the shots he walks up to tell them what he knows. They pull there guns and tell him to freeze get on the ground. He is then hand cuffed and charged with Disorderly conduct and firearms misconduct.

    Now I can understand the cops wanting to secure his gun for there safety if they feel the need. But, walking while armed under no circumstances is disorderly conduct or firearms misconduct. My dad ended up spending the night in jail, not to mention having to hire a lawyer for committing no crime other then exercising his rights.

    Fortunately the judge at the arraignment knew the law and was down right pissed that the cops where dumb enough to arrest someone with no cause and even madder at the DA for not stopping the whole thing as soon as he heard about it. Hopefully the Judge in this case will be that smart.

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    Default Glad I wasn't him

    Quote Originally Posted by bandhmo View Post
    For what it is worth problems with some cops trying to bend the law to go after anyone who carriers are not new.

    My dad was arrested in the early 80's for walking up to some cops with a gun open carry and holstered.

    One night my dad hears some shots in the early morning. Not knowing what was happening he went outside with a 357 holstered on his belt to look around. Bears were and still are common in the neighborhood so there was no reason to believe any thing wrong was happening. He walks around a little does not see or hear anything and walks back to the house. Just before he goes in he sees a city cop pull up on the street, assuming they are responding to the shots he walks up to tell them what he knows. They pull there guns and tell him to freeze get on the ground. He is then hand cuffed and charged with Disorderly conduct and firearms misconduct.

    Now I can understand the cops wanting to secure his gun for there safety if they feel the need. But, walking while armed under no circumstances is disorderly conduct or firearms misconduct. My dad ended up spending the night in jail, not to mention having to hire a lawyer for committing no crime other then exercising his rights.

    Fortunately the judge at the arraignment knew the law and was down right pissed that the cops where dumb enough to arrest someone with no cause and even madder at the DA for not stopping the whole thing as soon as he heard about it. Hopefully the Judge in this case will be that smart.
    Had I gone outside investigating a possible bear, no way my gun would have been holstered.

    I have to trust my local LEO to be professional. Then, I also have to worry about Fish & Wildlife, too

    I also recognize that their madate is to protect our urban bears as well as clueless citizens like myself.

    Mostly kidding.

    Lost Sheep

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    Default Update-Judge's Ruling today 2/17/09

    Update-Judge's Ruling today 2/17/09

    Brad Krause is a free man tonight, as the Judge dismissed the case against him. The upshot of it is that his "disordely conduct while armed" was entirely constituted by the mere fact of being armed. This is tantamount to have a charge of "being armed while being legally armed".

    http://freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2187573/posts
    or paste this into your web browser
    freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2187573/posts

    So far, no one has used the phrase "Catch-22" in the forums I have read. Don't these Freepers read Joseph Heller, much less, Franz Kafka? (I have not decided if "freeper" is a derogatory term or not, but since it is a self-descriptive term, I think not, so use it here under advisement. If it is offensive, please let me know and I will amend myself.)

    OK, all that is beside the point. What is significant is that the Judge did not order the return of Mr. Krause's property (the gun, ammunition and holster). The way the Judge's decision reads, it sounds to me as if he is deliberatly leaving open avenues for appeal.

    I think there is more here than meets the eye, however.

    The recording device.

    The neighbor who called the police.

    The demeanor of Mr. Krause during the arrest.

    Almost every thing about this case screams, "TEST CASE"!

    Even the police conduct and the prosecutor's proceeding look like a set-up.

    Can this possibly be the basis for a test case that eventually will protect the right to carry, open, peacably?

    Seems to good to be true.

    My head is spinning.

    Lost Sheep
    Last edited by Lost Sheep; 02-17-2009 at 23:32. Reason: spelling

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lost Sheep View Post


    Almost every thing about this case screams, "TEST CASE"!

    Even the police conduct and the prosecutor's proceeding look like a set-up.

    Can this possibly be the basis for a test case that eventually will protect the right to carry, open, peacably?

    Seems to good to be true.

    My head is spinning.

    Lost Sheep
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  16. #16

    Default Hope

    I hope he gets his day in a higher court.

    Back in 95' when Texas got CCW the police of one local Dallas suburb decided that all CCW's would be treated as felony stops. ON the ground, face down, arms spread, vehicle towed, then cuffed and stuffed; To be released at the city gestapo. This worked well for about 2 weeks despite complaints to the city council. Then late one evening an elderly citizen was stopped and given the same routine. This was the last time it happened in this town; It seems the little old pistol packin granny was the mayors mother who had remarried after her first husbands untimely demiss. It's supriseing what one little old lady can accomplish.
    You may beat the rap, but you won't beat the ride !!
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