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Thread: New State Concessions hunting lands public announcement

  1. #1

    Default New State Concessions hunting lands public announcement

    Big Game Commercial Services Board

    Category: Agency Meetings
    Department: Commerce Community & Economic Development
    Publish Date: 02/13/2009
    Location: Teleconference
    Coastal District: N/A

    Body of Notice:

    BIG GAME COMMERCIAL SERVICES BOARD. The Board will hold teleconferences from 10:00-11:00 a.m. on 2/19/09, & 3/5/09 for the purpose of reconvening the State Lands subcommittee. Individuals interested in additional information may call (907) 465-2543.

    Revision History:


  2. #2
    Member anonymous1's Avatar
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    Default Give em candy

    Thanks for keeping us posted AV
    Man this whole thing is just a little overwhelmingly scarey. I`ve tried to read up on it to understand what it all means and in my simple mind it boils down a privatization scheme akin to whats happened to our fishery resources.
    I guess I just don`t see how it can be good for private property rights or Joe hunter. When kids fight over toys or candy you either take it all away or give em both some. Is that whats happening here between guides and transporters.

  3. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by anonymous1 View Post
    Thanks for keeping us posted AV
    Man this whole thing is just a little overwhelmingly scarey. I`ve tried to read up on it to understand what it all means and in my simple mind it boils down a privatization scheme akin to whats happened to our fishery resources.
    I guess I just don`t see how it can be good for private property rights or Joe hunter. When kids fight over toys or candy you either take it all away or give em both some. Is that whats happening here between guides and transporters.
    A1~
    Your not alone. No one is talking much about this publicly that's why this meeting notice might be a good thing.

    Maybe a few joe-six pak hunters will show up or call in?

    Get some people besides a few guides asking questions...OH and make sure to get the answers in writing.

    Questions and responses in writing should start clearing the fog of what the Alaska Professional Hunters really has in mind for the good ol boys club...

    It doesn't appear to me transporters care much one way or the other...could be wrong though.


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    Member BRWNBR's Avatar
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    THis whole concession deal will frickin' rock for resident hunters!! limiting the amount of guides in every area will open up areas for less pressured hunting like never before. I'd think every joe resident hunter would be pushing hard for this to go thru.
    Transporters are keeping their mouths shut for the same reason, less guides more runways and access areas to drop people. They should starting looking at their operating plan caus their next for the limited access. Only so much alaska and only so much usable alaska.

    This is a weird deal for guiding, if they do it right it could be very good, if they do it wrong and peddle to much to the APHA it could get very very bad and never even happen due to apeals from everyone who lost their jobs.
    Bottom line, something gotta be done. either limit the number of clients each guide can take...which would be pointless, then no one can make any money.
    Or limit the number of guides that can use an area.
    No matter what this idea ain't gonna get swallowed very well. Bottom line for me as a guide is this...
    i may loose my job..but this going thru will create better opportunities for my kids and their kids by easing hunting pressure from the guiding end of things. I care more about that than my job. i can loose my job, but don't plan on loosing my kids.
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    Member shphtr's Avatar
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    Didn't the state used to have some sort of guide concession system in the past .... aka "exclusive guide use areas" or something like that? Will this be "more or less" the same thing?

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    Member Chisana's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BRWNBR View Post
    THis whole concession deal will frickin' rock for resident hunters!! limiting the amount of guides in every area will open up areas for less pressured hunting like never before. I'd think every joe resident hunter would be pushing hard for this to go thru.
    I agree it could be very good for resident hunters or we could end up with situations similar to those that exist in the Wrangells where the transporters will not take resident hunters in because they have arrangements with guides who have exclusive areas on federal lands.

    Could go either way since we don't see this problem in all areas with exclusive guide areas.

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    the reason we don't see the trasnporter/guide realtionship problem in the other exclusive guide use areas is because of one word....SHEEP. thats it plain and simple. people place sheep on such a high pedistal that just about anything will be done to protect "their" areas, residents included.
    Most guides that those transporters are protecting are taking out over or close to two dozen sheep clients a year....otherwise if they were only looking for 10 sheep they wouldn't care so much of joe resident came out and shot a half dozen.
    Build a big lodge, then figure out how to fund it....ohhh looky sheep. Build a small outfitt and go easy on the resource and still have a working relationship with joe resdient hunter...go big means stakin' out your claim so to speak...to bad.
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  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by BRWNBR View Post
    limiting the amount of guides in every area will open up areas for less pressured hunting like never before.
    How is this program going to 'limit' the total number of guides?

    It appears as if it is just going to move guides around.

    Maybe you mean it will put a bunch of guides out of business and make big box guide business out of others.

    What is in the provisions of these special interest contracts that is going to prevent a guide who owns the concession from just ramping up his business and hiring a bunch of assistant guides to take the place of the guides that have been displaced in what is now...'his' area??

    Quote Originally Posted by BRWNBR View Post
    I'd think every joe resident hunter would be pushing hard for this to go thru. Transporters are keeping their mouths shut for the same reason, less guides more runways and access areas to drop people.
    I been hearing different.

    Transporters and joe-six pack hunters are working with DNR to include those with a transporter license as eligible bidders for these concessions.

    There is no justification that only guides have exclusive and joint use concessions.

    Transporters and joe-six pack are interested in bidding on these areas and makeing them no-guide areas. And no other transporters can get in either.

    Then when joe-six pack books a flight into that area he knows only the transporter who owns the area will be dropping joe's off and no guides in the area.

    That is what I hear joe hunter and transporters are pushing for.


  9. #9
    Member BRWNBR's Avatar
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    "How is this program going to 'limit' the total number of guides?"

    ...Currently the way the new maps are drawn up they have a number in each new concession for the number of guides that will be given a permit to operate there...example, unit 17 currently has almost 25 guides registered for the area, under the new concession it will only allow 4 i belive to operate there.

    "It appears as if it is just going to move guides around."
    ...ummm no.

    "Maybe you mean it will put a bunch of guides out of business and make big box guide business out of others."

    ...This big box was a concern, but the way they are working up the prospectus will include a business plan on how many clients each guide is trying to take per year, and they are trying to avoid raping and area just for the sake of letting one guy do it. They are trying to work it so the renewable resource actually gets renewed.

    "What is in the provisions of these special interest contracts that is going to prevent a guide who owns the concession from just ramping up his business and hiring a bunch of assistant guides to take the place of the guides that have been displaced in what is now...'his' area??"

    ...covered this is the above....

    "Transporters and joe-six pack hunters are working with DNR to include those with a transporter license as eligible bidders for these concessions."

    ...for the 10,000th time THERE ARE NO BIDDERS!!! geez no one seems to be able to let this rumor die.

    "There is no justification that only guides have exclusive and joint use concessions."

    ...apparently there is to the people who have the responsiblity of managing these lands.

    "Transporters and joe-six pack are interested in bidding on these areas and makeing them no-guide areas. And no other transporters can get in either.":

    ...I haven't heard anything of transporters being inluded in a GUIDE concession. You have to have a guiding business to apply for a permit, or be awarded one.

    "Then when joe-six pack books a flight into that area he knows only the transporter who owns the area will be dropping joe's off and no guides in the area."

    ...You can't OWN an area, as you cannot sell it. it will be awarded to people and can be revoked if need be.

    "That is what I hear joe hunter and transporters are pushing for."
    ....they ain't pushing very hard if they are.

    what grapevine are you getting your info from? be curious to see some of it.
    Avalanche..you gonna be at the BGCSB meeting in fairbanks?
    where you at the anchorage one?
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  10. #10
    Member muskeg's Avatar
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    Also the State can now regulate the non-alaska-resident hunting Guide ..... leagley

    Resident Guides will get more points ..... the Guides with the highest points (in the end) wins ..... or gets the Bid ....

    Maybe that's where everyon thinks that it is a Bid ... It is patterned after the USFS prospectus BID system ... It's only in the name ...

    The USFS does have another Bid type system of awarding Use Days or Areas where the highest $ bidder get the Days or Areas ...

  11. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by BRWNBR View Post
    ...Currently the way the new maps are drawn up they have a number in each new concession for the number of guides that will be given a permit to operate there...example, unit 17 currently has almost 25 guides registered for the area, under the new concession it will only allow 4 i belive to operate there.
    So the other 21 guides are out of business or they will move into some other area? It has to be one or the other so which is it?

    Special interest group are dividing up the state and giving concessions to selected guides? Smells like Osichek all over again.

    Quote Originally Posted by BRWNBR View Post
    ...This big box was a concern, but the way they are working up the prospectus will include a business plan on how many clients each guide is trying to take per year, and they are trying to avoid raping and area just for the sake of letting one guy do it. They are trying to work it so the renewable resource actually gets renewed.
    Have you seen ANY official document on any of this stuff besides a map or is it all just rehtoric coming out of APHA through DNR and BGCSB?

    What prospectus are you talking about? Who wrote it?


    Quote Originally Posted by BRWNBR View Post
    ...for the 10,000th time THERE ARE NO BIDDERS!!! geez no one seems to be able to let this rumor die.
    No bidders....so this program is going to costing the people of this state hundreds of thousands of dollars to design, implement and it will come with very significant annual administrative costs and concessionaires are not going to cover the costs? What kind of a deal is that??

    No friend, not everyone in this state is going to sit on the sidelines and not make an issue about State subsidized and welfare programs for special interest commercial hunting business that take public resources for profit.

    The BGCSB does not even collect enough liceninsing fees to cover the actual costs of operating the board. Now you want us to believe guides are going to pony up enough money to cover the board and the 'actual costs' of this program?

    I don't believe that this program is going to come to pass. Besides the commissioner of DNR just cut the 400K budget request already.

    But even so...if there are no bidders where is that written in stone? Have you seen the prospectus?

    Quote Originally Posted by BRWNBR View Post
    "There is no justification that only guides have exclusive and joint use concessions."

    ...apparently there is to the people who have the responsiblity of managing these lands.
    Read the Osichek decision and the Mcdowell decisions....

    Transporters are licensed under the same regulatory board as guides.

    Transporters will have to be consider just as eligible for these concessions.

    Quote Originally Posted by BRWNBR View Post
    ..I haven't heard anything of transporters being inluded in a GUIDE concession. You have to have a guiding business to apply for a permit, or be awarded one.
    Well you have now but you don't seem to be very open minded about it.

    Like I said; transporters are a business not unlike guiding is a business and they are licensed and regulated under the same body of law....you don't have to have a 'guiding' business to be eligible to bid....and these concessions are not being talked about like they are 'permits' they are contracts and they talk like there will be a measurement of deciding who is going to own the contract and MONEY is going to be part of the deal.

    And, State contracts that dispose of public resources or 'assets' must be competed when they concern state assets....that is the law.

    "Then when joe-six pack books a flight into that area he knows only the transporter who owns the area will be dropping joe's off and no guides in the area."

    Quote Originally Posted by BRWNBR View Post
    what grapevine are you getting your info from? be curious to see some of it.
    Avalanche..you gonna be at the BGCSB meeting in fairbanks?
    where you at the anchorage one?
    I have my sources and it is not the BGCSB or APHA.

    Eveybody that wants to can see it. Just ask DNR. But ask in writing under the ORA. You will be surprised at what you get.

    Nope wont be at BGSB or Anc.....gonna stay productive and hope to be hunting wolves. End of Feb all of March...dont get any better than that.


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    dang avalanche...not so much at once...lol
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  13. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by muskeg View Post
    Also the State can now regulate the non-alaska-resident hunting Guide ..... leagley

    Resident Guides will get more points ..... the Guides with the highest points (in the end) wins ..... or gets the Bid ....
    Where does that information come from. The mythical prospectus written by bill horn or the proposed new 'guide bill'?


  14. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by BRWNBR View Post
    dang avalanche...not so much at once...lol

    sorry man


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    The other 21 guides can only go somewhere else if they have a concession, the concession will include, state, blm and state park lands, so other than private corp theres not much else out there.


    I haven't actually gotten anything from APHA on this, its all come from the mouth thats heading this at DNR.

    The prospectus is in mock form right now, wrote and being wrote by DNR. They don't have it hammer out in stone yet, just ideas on points and scoring and so on, we'll get more in fairbanks on where thats at.


    The deal with no bidding, is there will be a cost per permit and maybe a per head cost or a percentage cost. Right now you can offer a different permit fee, example i might offer to pay 1000 per year and someone else might offer to pay 3000 per year....points will be given off that, which is where everyone is getting this bid stuff from. but the money on the permit stuff is only worth 15 points out of a possible 100 on the prospectus.

    Oh agreed, not everyone is gonna sit and watch this, the guys that win permits will, but everyone else will be up in arms, cause "it ain't fair". which is why we all cry.

    Guides ponying up money to covere BGCSB and this concession stuff is two seperate deals and if it comes down to having ajob or not...guides will pony up the money.

    it woudlnt' suprise me if this all fell it its face either. They've grabbed a big gorilla.






    "Transporters are licensed under the same regulatory board as guides."
    but do not hold guide outfitter licenses....

    "Transporters will have to be consider just as eligible for these concessions."
    Why they are not licenesed big game guides outfitters.





    "Like I said; transporters are a business not unlike guiding is a business and they are licensed and regulated under the same body of law....you don't have to have a 'guiding' business to be eligible to bid....and these concessions are not being talked about like they are 'permits' they are contracts and they talk like there will be a measurement of deciding who is going to own the contract and MONEY is going to be part of the deal."
    ....wheres all this come from? other than your "sources".

    "I have my sources and it is not the BGCSB or APHA."
    ....your complaining about the secrecy of all this but you won't say anything other than that?? geez come on.

    Whats the ORA?

    Well being at these meetings might give you a chance to throw fruit or cabbage right at the AHPA board...something fun to break up the boredom...then you don't have to sling mud in secret and play this conspiricay theory stuff on ODD.
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  16. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by BRWNBR View Post
    The other 21 guides can only go somewhere else if they have a concession, the concession will include, state, blm and state park lands, so other than private corp theres not much else out there.
    Well as far as I can tell all guides are working somewhere now; so yah lets kick 21 one guys out and give the area to 4 guides who can then make a plan to take the total amount of game that the 25 were taking. Are you kidding me....who is going to get one of these concessions and not expand their business.

    The State can not say....hey you are taking too much....all the guide has to say is hey......this is how much guides have been 'traditionaly taking' and you can not limit my business.

    Give me a break BB.


    Quote Originally Posted by BRWNBR View Post
    I haven't actually gotten anything from APHA on this, its all come from the mouth thats heading this at DNR.
    Representatives of APHA have had more than a few meetings with the DNR team and there for a while were meeting two times a month.

    DNR is just giving you the APHA line.

    Quote Originally Posted by BRWNBR View Post
    Guides ponying up money to covere BGCSB and this concession stuff is two seperate deals and if it comes down to having ajob or not...guides will pony up the money.
    Umm....then guides need to come up with the 400K needed to develop and implement the programs and they can start by paying the $122,000 cost of the map development.

    Quote Originally Posted by BRWNBR View Post
    "Transporters are licensed under the same regulatory board as guides."
    but do not hold guide outfitter licenses....

    "Transporters will have to be consider just as eligible for these concessions."
    Why they are not licenesed big game guides outfitters.
    Business is business.

    So what is your point? Is it that a special interest board that licenses a guide and licenses a transporter can decide it's necessary and appropriate to design a welfare program for guides and.....make it exclusive to guides when a transporter is willing to pay the state MORE?

    How does that hold up to scrutiny?

    Quote Originally Posted by BRWNBR View Post
    ....your complaining about the secrecy of all this but you won't say anything other than that?? geez come on.
    Whats the ORA?
    Open Record Act.

    Quote Originally Posted by BRWNBR View Post
    Well being at these meetings might give you a chance to throw fruit or cabbage right at the AHPA board...something fun to break up the boredom...then you don't have to sling mud in secret and play this conspiricay theory stuff on ODD.
    __________________

    Are you saying wolf hunting is less fun than an APHA meeting disquised as a BGCSB meeting.....too funny!


  17. #17
    Member AlaskaTrueAdventure's Avatar
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    Thumbs down Imho...

    In my estimation, this guide concession area concept will put between 50 and 200 contracting guides-outfitters completely out of business. Unemployment is the highest it has been in 26 years. I am against this program because of its drastic consequences to the sudden death losers. Keep in mind that these sudden death losers have not neccessarily done anything wrong, ever. And there aint gonna be no "bail-out" program to compensate for the many thousands of dollars already invested, and then lost, by the losers. But yes, it will be a sweet deal for the superbowl winners.

    I also feel that this program will eventually result in the death of the Alaska Professional Hunters Association. They currently have about 141 professional members. After some of their members are not awarded an area to work within and are therefore put out of business, the ranks of APHA will become fewer and fewer. At some point the organization will not have sufficient financial support to exist.

    For example, APHA has an internal, voluntary "tax system" they call the Alaska Nonresident Hunter Preservation Fund (ANHPF). APHA asks that their professional members donate $150.00 per contracted client-hunter to the APHA for this fund. The intent of this "tax system" is to help fund the organizations activities. In the past less than 20% of the APHA members have contributed to this fund. In the past I was one of those professional members that contributed some money to that fund. As more and more members become "unemployed" by not being awarded an area, a consession to work within, those members will (or have already) dropped out of the organization and therefore will not be contributing any money at all for any reason. At a certain (unknown) point, the organization will cease to exist.

    I believe that this effort, spearheaded by the APHA, has divided guides into two camps. These guides will be further divided into the "haves" (employed) and the "have-nots" (unemployed), if this concession program is implemented as currently planned. Without going into detail, many long lasting friendships and working relationships have already been destroyed. The Board of Game has its Tier II fiasco to constantly divide sport and subsistence hunters with. Now the Big Game Commercial Services Board has its own fiasco that has divided the guide-outfitter community.

    With unemployment at the highest level in 26 years, and no real light at the end of the unemployment tunnel, I am against the implementation of this concession program as it is currently planned.

    I believe that if fewer contracting guide-outfitter businesses is desireable, then the reduction should take place through the process of attrition. Evolution does work. Let the strong survive. Let the weak perish. But lets not destroy familys, lives, and carreers through any "DNR Concession Application" process.

    Dennis
    Alaska True Adventure Guide Service

  18. #18

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    It just amazes me that the state cant control this gorilla (guiding business) in the F&G side of things. The only answer to Joe resident's concerns is a lasso on the gorilla that tells him how many non-residents he can take out. Shuffling guides in and out of areas isn't gonna fix anything, as has been said they'll just expand into a box store guide service in their exclusive areas. 1 guide 10 guides 100 guides, they are still gonna maximize their money making potential on the resource, and limit resident access no matter what, and it appears that the state is never gonna or cant fight the real fight.

  19. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by AlaskaCub View Post
    It just amazes me that the state cant control this gorilla (guiding business) in the F&G side of things.....it appears that the state is never gonna or cant fight the real fight.
    Agreed.

    The only way to reasonably put limits on the guide industry is for the BGCSB to establish authentic professional licensing standards. That has not happened in 35 years and it wont happen ever. This is a special interest board 'the fox watching the hen house'.

    Charge enough in licensing fees to cover the actual costs of administrating the board.

    Require licensed guides to guide...not just hire out the work.

    Require assistant guides to actually go through an apprentice program. In other words...a guide just can not hire unlimited numbers of assistants and let the assistants independently guide hunts.

    More than likely to get to that point some brave legislator would need to reconstitute the guide board and pull all other 'classes' of guide licensing under one roof.

    Fishing guides, wildlife viewing guides, rafting guides, ect...all guides sitting around one table dealing ONLY with establishing, implementing, licensing and regulating "guiding" as a true professional licensing board.

    F&G has one main job....establishing seasons, bag limits and that is the only way fish and game has of managing 'human use'.

    And because of our constitution and resource managment mandates....a guide is no different than joe hunter and that is well established in law.

    If there is a season and a bag limit everyone has equal access and opportunity.

    The answer to limiting the guide industries (fishing or hunting) is one board, real costs, and professional standards of achieving and maintaing the 'license'.

    Why should a fishing guide or a hunting guide be held to a lower standard than a barber or a pilot?


  20. #20
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    I agree with dennis wholeheartadly with what will happne if this all goes thru and hadn't really thought about APHA shootin' themselves in the foot on this...funny thought.

    Also agree the best way to limit is to make contracting guides guide, but then there'd be no point in assitant guides at all....so you'd have to come up with an idea. Maybe limit contacting guides to 2-4 assit. guides or guidew working under him.

    Attrition will take forever and then some and not do anythiing for any current situations we're in.

    I disagree with cub on the big box guide theory, thats a worse case senario-point the finger to make a point kinda ideal.
    If i had an exclusive area, i wouldn't change how i run my business. Booking might be easier, prices might go up to cover my new costs but i sure wouldn't go gang busters and grab up 10 new guides and flood the area just because i can...hence the question on the mock prosupectus about the number of clients.

    Bottom line for me, and no ones really asked which is fine is that i'm
    Not sure if i support this concession thing or not, i know none of it will be pretty. AT ALL...save for the guys with permits. And i might loose my job. But i do agree that something needs to be done. And if we do something we need to do it without all the emotional hype that this conccesion thing is bringing outa everyone. Come up with an idea and keep your bloodpressure level..then we'll be on to something.

    good post dennis.
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