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Thread: mould# 457193

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    Default mould# 457193

    I cast a bunch of bullets from lyman mould 457193 its a plain base bullet 420 grns. the bullets were quenched in water and test around 22 brinnel. I loaded them over 38.5 grns of 3031 seemed like a pretty light load. due to the cold i havent done any acurracy work yet but they penatrate very well, should i be casting this bullet softer?? at 22 how fast could i push it without leading? Does anyone have a favorite mould/alloy for the 358 winchester?

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    Yukon254 I don’t know squat about the 358 but do cast for a number of my guns in cartridges like 30-30, 30-06, 375 Win and H&H, 45 colt, and 45-70. That said, I have pushed gas checked bullets upwards of 2200 fps with minimal leading from bullets that hard. Now you have to remember that in order for that hard of a bullet to properly obturate (squarsh or “bump up”) to properly seal the bore and prevent gas cutting (leading) you will need to really load them hot. I am not suggesting you go above published load data, but you will for sure need to be near maximum loads for a bullet that hard.
    Regarding quenched bullets I have done some extensive experimentation with less than satisfactory results. The amount of antimony present in your alloy (or lack there of) will have a significant effect on the end result. Pure lead lacking in antimony will not heat treat or harden when quenched. Other factors like the temperature of the cooling agent (presumably water) and the temperature of the bullet just prior to quenching will also have a very significant effect on the final hardness of the bullets.

    I found that wheel weight ally with about 2% to 4% tin added and cast super hot (900 to 1000 F) and quenched in near freezing water resulted in the hardest bullets (30 bn aprox)

    Interestingly, these bullets would gradually revert to their “original” hardness over an extended period of time. Bullets checked at the 1 year mark had softened considerably, and by 2 years had equalized at about 12 bn. Admittedly I am NOT a metallurgist, and I can offer no sound explanation for this phenomenon, but I assure you that it can, and does in fact happen.

    If you goal is a “hunting” bullet, I think I would go with a hardness of no more than 16 bn and try for 2000 fps give or take. Remember there have been thousands of critters killed with plain old lead bullets over the years, but the success of these was due in large part to rather low velocities, heavy for caliber bullets, and soft alloys. This combination allows for some expansion and good penetration. It does not allow for laser beam trajectories and long range shots in most situations.

    Have a look at the “classic” black powder rounds that were so successful in the late 1800’s and you will get an idea what I am talking about. They all pushed rather soft bullets at modest to low velocities (1100 to 1400 fps). Think 38-55, 40-60, 45-70, 50-90 etc.

    This is were the lead bullets really shine…….. heavy for caliber weight, moderate velocity, and softer alloys…… You will note that the modern “bear protection” loads from Corbon, Buffalo Bore etc. use very hard “hard cast” bullets that are designed for exceedingly deep penetration with minimal expansion. This might be the ticket for big bears….. I don’t know. But it is NOT ideal for most game animals.
    “You’ve gotten soft. You’re like one of those police dogs who’s released in to the wild and gets eaten by a deer or something.” Bill McNeal of News Radio

  3. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by yukon254 View Post
    I cast a bunch of bullets from lyman mould 457193 its a plain base bullet 420 grns. the bullets were quenched in water and test around 22 brinnel. I loaded them over 38.5 grns of 3031 seemed like a pretty light load. due to the cold i havent done any acurracy work yet but they penatrate very well, should i be casting this bullet softer?? at 22 how fast could i push it without leading? Does anyone have a favorite mould/alloy for the 358 winchester?
    I've never messed with quenching Yukon, mostly because of the changes over time that Alangaq notes. Sometimes I get right to the bullets I cast, but sometimes they sit around for a year or two. I bounce back and forth between wheelweights for convenience and Lyman #2 or equivalent when I want a degree of controlled expansion. That #2 with a gas check and a good lube can be pushed fast enough to expand some without leading problems.

    My all time favorite .358 bullet is the RCBS #82028 (Lyman equivalent is #358430, according to the RCBS box). It produces a 200 grain flat nose gas check with a crimpring groove and single lube groove. I use it in 357 mag (in a contender barrel), 357 Herret, 35 Remington (both contender and Marlin 336), and 358 Winnie in three different rifles. I've used it in 35 Whelen and 35 Whelen Improved when I had those rifles, and loaded it for a friend's 350 Rem Mag.

    It shoots extremely well in all of them. I have never pushed it past 2000fps, and most of the time hold it to 1600-1800. I've always wished for a 250-275 grain bullet of similar design, but never tried to track one down to know if it exists.

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    All my casting has been with straight wheelweights. My thoughts on leading are that causes are related to the dimensions of the chamber throat, barrel, twist rate, bullet sizing, bullet alloy, bullet lube and base configuration ie. flat base, bevel or gas check, the pressure the load opperates at and velocity. These factors vary from gun to gun.

    When a bullet is too hard, it can lead just as badly as a too soft bullet, especially if the hard bullet is undersized and a poor lube is used.

    The most accurate cast bullet load I've shot from a rifle was with a lyman 3589 ~280 gr bullet cast air cooled from ww's, 5 shots into 1" at 100 yds, and driven ~2000 fps. It is a gas checked bullet. From the research and studying I've done, air cooled ww's will expand slightly on game yet still hold together fine at 2000 fps from the muzzle when gas checked. The hardened ww bullets will act like solids, and sometimes come apart on impact.

    I haven't had a chance to compare quenched vs. air cooled bullets on game out of handguns, but have found that I can get good velocity from either configuration, and the air cooled bullets don't seem to cause any appreciable leading up to 1200 fps even the plainbase versions. I do size my bullets at least 1 thousandth over bore dia and use a good lube.

    I don't know of anyone that has a stock cast bullet mold that IMHO would be perfection in the 358 win, and that perfect bullet would be a 250 gr gc driven 2000 fps. Mountain molds makes excellent custom molds at a reasonable price and I'd recomend using their online bullet design software to play around to come up with the right design. I'd go for a ogival wadcutter with a .30" meplat, 0.10" driving bands and try and get the bullet base to be level with the base of the neck and as cast dia of .360". Cast it from straight air cooled ww's and run lbt blue in the lube grooves. I'd expect this bullet to be very accurate and very effective on game.

    I've found that MM's tend to drop a hair heavier than their software calculates, so if you spec 250 gr in the design it'll likely finish out at 255 gr.

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    Default custom moulds

    My FIL builds custom moulds for the BPCR http://www.bpcr.net/ folks. You guys sound like you are pretty thick into bullet moulding so if you have been thinking of a pet bullet design or shape Steve can help. Here's his website http://www.brooksmoulds.com/

    PS. Not really advertising - just trying to post a source....mods - please remove if this is beyond the rules.

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    Member Alangaq's Avatar
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    Very cool link! I have been fortunate enough to find all the moulds that I need thru the big manufactures but perhaps someday will need his services.
    “You’ve gotten soft. You’re like one of those police dogs who’s released in to the wild and gets eaten by a deer or something.” Bill McNeal of News Radio

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    Default What are you shooting it in?

    457193 is a .45 rifle mold yet you mention a favorite .358 load - are we are missing here like the .45 cal. cartridge?

    Watch the diam. on the .457 bullet; bores on these vary widely. If you don't match the bore diameter and bullets you can expect all sorts of problems.

    Quote Originally Posted by yukon254 View Post
    I cast a bunch of bullets from lyman mould 457193 its a plain base bullet 420 grns. the bullets were quenched in water and test around 22 brinnel. I loaded them over 38.5 grns of 3031 seemed like a pretty light load. due to the cold i havent done any acurracy work yet but they penatrate very well, should i be casting this bullet softer?? at 22 how fast could i push it without leading? Does anyone have a favorite mould/alloy for the 358 winchester?
    Living the urban lifestyle so I can pay my way and for my family's needs, and support my country. And you?
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    Default 45/70

    Im using the 457193 mould for my 45/70 marlin, sizeing to .459. cast some softer yesterday seemed to get very good accuracy (at close range) shot into a frozen block of wood didnt get much penatration tho. I noticed a bitter smell after i shot what would that be?

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    Quote Originally Posted by yukon254 View Post
    I noticed a bitter smell after i shot what would that be?
    Probably some combo of your powder and lube.

    Wanna get another "interesting" smell, try loading some with black powder or one of the subs. Data for the subs is at the Hodgdon site, as well as in the new Lyman black powder manual, which also has loads for real black. Just be sure to clean the gun well with soapy water, and do the same with the cases after decapping. Kinda fun, if the extra cleaning and hassle doesn't get too burdensome for you.

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    Default subs

    BRWNBR what are subs?? I have some old beartooth hardcast that I loaded for a ruger#1 i had, they were to hot for my marlin so today i pulled the bullets and tested them for hardness they were over 22 brn. and they are at least 5 years old. On hardcast have you ever hunted with them? I shot a small blackbear with those beartooth bullets, it killed the bear fine but at the shot the bear didnt act hit it just ran off, no blood for 50 yards then there was a lot and bear was only 25 yards past that. I never hunted with them again as i wasnt sure about them, any opinions?? In contrast my son shot a black bear that was starving (it killed and ate our dog) he shot it with a 50 cal flintlock R/B the bear didnt go 20 steps,i was surprised but it seemed that old gun worked better! Im looking for a cast bullet to hunt with, and since i guide all the time it would be nice to have a bullet that would penatrate well.

  11. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by yukon254 View Post
    BRWNBR what are subs?? I have some old beartooth hardcast that I loaded for a ruger#1 i had, they were to hot for my marlin so today i pulled the bullets and tested them for hardness they were over 22 brn. and they are at least 5 years old. On hardcast have you ever hunted with them? I shot a small blackbear with those beartooth bullets, it killed the bear fine but at the shot the bear didnt act hit it just ran off, no blood for 50 yards then there was a lot and bear was only 25 yards past that. I never hunted with them again as i wasnt sure about them, any opinions?? In contrast my son shot a black bear that was starving (it killed and ate our dog) he shot it with a 50 cal flintlock R/B the bear didnt go 20 steps,i was surprised but it seemed that old gun worked better! Im looking for a cast bullet to hunt with, and since i guide all the time it would be nice to have a bullet that would penatrate well.
    Sorry..... "Subs" is muzzleloader speak for black powder substitutes like Pyrodex and 777.

    I've whacked quite a few deer, an elk and a moose with hard cast 44 handgun bullets, and you pretty well describe how they react unless a major bone is hit. Your son's experience with soft RBs pretty well matches my own on other game, but no experience with it on blackbear. I like hard cast for handguns simply to get more penetration, but against the current popularity, I prefer a heavy bullet with a little expansion such as I get with Lyman #2 in a rifle. You're generally shooting a little faster with the rifle, and along with a heavy bullet you can still get the penetration along with the expansion. I've actually had faster kills on deer with Lyman #2 alloy bullets at a slower velocity from my 45-70 than I get from the same bullet hard cast and at higher velocity. I'm not shooting big bears, and dead is dead in both cases, but they don't travel as far with the softer bullet at slower velocity. Kind of a crossover with my experience using muzzleloaders when you get down to it.

    My sample size is small for that observation, so I'm not hanging my hat on it entirely. But a couple of dozen deer along with a few elk and moose gives me more faith than advertizing claims and stories on the internet. I'm not saying those aren't true, but then again I'm not shooting dangerous game and I'm not taking anything but broadside lung shots. For those shots from rifles, softer and slower sure seems to kill faster than fast hard cast when it comes out of my own barrels.

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    Default

    I got your PM about this bullet and have been looking over my notes. Here's my take. The 457193 is Lymans lont time standard bullet for the 45-70. It is a flat nose and cast from their #2 alloy is supposed to weigh 405 grains. If it is heavier as cast for you the allow is softer (more lead) than #2. Cold water quenching will surface harden bullets some but the hardness is temporary. The bullet will age soften in a few weeks to something softer. It will still be harder than unquenched. This isn't the best way to harden bullets, oven baking is better and they will aged to an actual BHN of about 21. I know this sounds wierd but it works. Well, it works to some degree. The alloy and oddly enough the amount of arsenic in the lead can make a difference when heat tempering or oven baking to harden bullets and I presume it will matter with quenching also.

    The purpose of heat treating bullets is to harden them without alloying the mix so hard that the bullet will be brittle. Cast Performance and Beartooth both heat treat their bullets and other commercial makers do also. This is an attempt to have the best of both worlds. Hard to prevent expansion for best penetration and not be brittle and crumble at impact. Cold water quenching will work toward this goal and it is a poor mans way of flash hardening bullets. It isn't as effective nor does it last as long as heat treatment but it helps.

    How fast can you drive this bullet without leading? How much does a train ticket cost? There are many other factors involved. The allow is important. With no gas check, you may be limited to under 1600 fps or less. A more important consideration may be the size of the bullet and the condition of the bore. Some bores are just so rough and uneven that no plain base can be shot at even moderate velocity without leading.

    If shooting in the Ruger #1, you can drive them faster than in a micro groove Marlin. Also the bullet should be about .001" larger than the groove diameter of the Marlin for best results. Also the type of powder can make a big difference as can the lube you use. All I can offer are some general rules about cast bullets and you will have to manipulate the factors to achieve what you want.

    Another point, you don't need to drive a 400 grain 45 caliber bullet at twice the speed of sound to make it very effective in the field. That is almost an ounce of lead, it will make a very big and very deep hole at even black powder velocities.

    There are a few websites that offer good info about cast bullets and hardening as well as the latest and greatest lubes to use.

    When using plain base cast, powder selection is doubly important. The slowest powder is the best. I have been having the best luck with H4895 for the heavier hardcast bullets in the 45-70. No RL-7 or H322 for lead, even though they work well with gas checked.

    Gas checks help a lot. Hard bullets do not obturate (bump up) in the bore until the pressure is very high. With a BHN of 20, it takes a pressure of about 30,000 psi (1440*BHN) to obturate a bullet in the bore. This higher pressure gives higher velocity and that maay be too high. A bullet sized for a very tight fit will eliminate most leading because it won't need to bump up so much. With a gas check, this isn't so critical. The gas check seals the bore even for a bullet that is somewhat under sized. This gas check then allows me to drive the bullet faster (without leading) but also to drive the hard bullet slower at lower pressure as full obturation may not be needed to seal off the bore.

    Correct Alloy with some arsenic for heat treated (or quenched).
    Slower powders, H4895 & IMR 3031.
    Correct lube. Rooster red or green. I think that's what I use, there are other good lubes.
    Correct sized for your bore.
    A Bore that is correctly conditioned for cast bullets. Fire lapped to uniform size and smooth as a baby's buttocks.
    Gas checks whenever possible.

    With the above steps 2500 fps is not only possible but likely with very little or no leading.

    The Lyman cast bullet handbook. The book by Marshall Stanton (beartooth bullets guy) and this website http://www.lasc.us/CastBulletNotes.htm I used to shoot handgun silhouette with these folks and they developed lead alloys and hardening technique to reduce the hang time of the ram shot at 200 meters. This site is engineering level, cast bullets 604.

    Or call Dan Congiolosi at bullShop bullets in Delta Junction. He is a living encyclopedia of cast bullet knowledge and know how.
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    Default h4895

    Thanks Murphy I had some h4895 on hand, aprox 1400 fps, good accuracy I dont need anything faster in this gun. All i have to test bullets in this cold is frozen blocks of firewood, (not the greatest i know) but interesting to see how the different alloys work. Seems like 18 bhn is giveing the best results so far, will hunt bison with this load in march.

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