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Thread: Hollow Pt. VS. Hardcase

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    Default Hollow Pt. VS. Hardcase

    I know for penetration hardcase do the job. I was just wandering if it really mattered for bear protection with a 454,460, or 500 if the hollow point would be better.

    Just wandering.

  2. #2

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    My meager advise comes from reading online countless posts about handguns for bears, not from experience. The advise I read is that when using pistols for bear defense, penetration is hands down the most important thing, the bigger and faster the better, as long as you can control the gun you're firing. The fastest .500 rounds are still not near rifle velocity, so penetration is key.

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    agreed, penetration over the cavity size you get with a HP. A HP should start spreading very quickly on a thick brown bear hide, and would not penetrate that far after. Another benefit of penetration is when you hit one of the extremities/shoulders. An HP won't do much for you there. Your goal it to hit an extremity and bring the bear down or make the magic shot and penetrate to the vitals.

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    Hola,
    I believe the term is Hard-Cast. The above two are right on the money, the HC rounds from companies like Corbon (Dakota?) and Buffalo Bore are what you would want for a potential bear stopper.

    Here is a quote from Corbon's website.

    "The 320gr Hard-Cast is a super hard lead bullet. It combines superb accuracy with deep penetration and a big time thump from its sharp edge flat point. There is no expansion with this load and is best selected when bone breaking power is needed."


    With a Hollow Point (at least in my understanding) you are typically looking for the expansion to transfer the bullets speed and momentum into knockdown power in the target. So if you have a two legger who's trying to get a bead on you with a weapon it puts them on their back.

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    Default 500 Smith may better some rifle loads

    Quote Originally Posted by asrjb25 View Post
    My meager advise comes from reading online countless posts about handguns for bears, not from experience. The advise I read is that when using pistols for bear defense, penetration is hands down the most important thing, the bigger and faster the better, as long as you can control the gun you're firing. The fastest .500 rounds are still not near rifle velocity, so penetration is key.
    The 500 Smith has potential to be a better bear-stopper than some rifles. It is very close to the 444 Marlin and throws a 10% bigger bullet (cross-section).

    The advice I have heard is that a CNS (Central Nervous System, brain or spinal cord) hit will immobilize a bear instantly. But such a hit is difficult to make. A shot to the shoulder which breaks the shoulder bone and renders the bear three-legged may slow it down enough for you to outrun it and take a more leisurely kill shot.

    Anything else leaves the bear enough time to have a leisurely lunch before it expires. Guess who's invited to be luch.


    Pipe dreams, pie in the sky and statistics

    Here is a little list I compiled just for the fun of it. Warning! The latter half is tongue-in-cheek, but all the figures are still true (clipped from Wikipedia).

    Cartridges and their energy levels. I had noticed that the 500 Smith cartridge is TEN TIMES the power level of the .38 Special and thought this would be interesting. The .375 H&H is considered adequate for hunting the big bears. The U.S. Forest Service used to (and maybe still does) equip its rangers with the 300 Winchester Magnum for bear protection.

    So, for comparison, my .454 Casull is a little more than half the 300 Winchester Mag's power level. The 500 Smith comes a lot closer. But still, nothing even comes anywhere near the 700 Nitro express.

    Interestingly, the hottest loading of the 41 Magnum comes in higher than the hottest (commercial) loading of the 44 Magnum. But the 41 mag's forte is at distance, plus the object is to break the shoulder bone, not punch a hole through it.

    The 45 Colt gets two entries because there are loads for normal guns and hotter loads suitable only for strong guns like the TC Contender, Rugers and the like. Same for the 45-70.

    energy
    ft lbs Cartridge

    156 38 Special
    280 38 Special
    336 44 Special
    400/500 45 Colt
    570 357 Magnum
    960 45 colt
    1040 44 Magnum
    1100 41 Magnum
    1315 480 Ruger (shorter version of 475 Linebaugh, uses exactly the same bullets)
    1828 475 Linebaugh
    1925 454 Casull
    1750 45-70 (for trapdoor guns)
    2870 500 Smith
    2900 444 Marlin
    2900 to 3300 30-06
    3400 45-70 (for bolt action guns)
    3550 300 Winchester Magnum
    4500 12 gauge magnum (4000 to 5000, depending on projectile)
    4600 600 Nitro Express
    4660 375 H&H (Holland and Holland)
    5327 416 Remington Magnum
    6050 416 Weatherby Magnum
    6062 378 Weatherby Magnum
    6660 577 Nitro Express
    14404 700 Nitro Express

    How's this for an ideal bear-protection handgun. A double-barrel over-under in 700 Nitro Express. Energy level would be substatially less than that available in the rifle (instead of 14,404, maybe 10,000?) You are only going to have time for one or two shots anyway, so you're giving up nothing by losing the extra rounds in the revolver.

    This double pistol might weigh just a little more than the 500 S&W with an overall length of 12 to 15 inches. I wonder which would be worse, getting mauled by the front end of a grizzly or the back end of a pistol chambered for the 700? In short, I would not worry about recoil of the 500.

    Remember, only believe half of what you see and one quarter of what you hear. That goes double for what you get from the internet. Even this post. Maybe especially this post.

    Also remember, even the idiotic stuff might have a kernel of truth buried in there somewhere.

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    great post lost sheep

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    Thanks all you guys. Good stuff there lost sheep.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cohobones View Post
    I know for penetration hardcase do the job. I was just wandering if it really mattered for bear protection with a 454,460, or 500 if the hollow point would be better.

    Just wandering.
    I haven't shot any bear with either, and for that matter I don't know anyone who has, so it's mostly theoretical and make your best guess. I have shot deer with both and elk with the hard cast in 44 mag. I used HPs (Remington 240 handloads) specifically to try to limit penetration and do a little more tissue damage after a tough trailing job on one hard cast shot. I actually recovered two of them from deer- one on a 25 yard shot and one from a measured 77 yard shot, both broadside lung shots. Good expansion on both and the bullet stopped under the hide on the far side.

    Based on that and lots of other kills with hard cast, I'm betting on hard cast for my bear loads.

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    Default Thanks

    You are welcome - Thanks for the kind words.

    Just remember, energy may shred flesh, but it's momentum that breaks bones. In a bear attack (vs bear hunting, which is a whole other thing) a fast stop is paramount.

    Do your research on bear behaviour. Know when and where bears may be and adjust your behaviour accordingly. If you see a bear, know the signs they use to "telegraph" their intentions. Go visit Fish & Game's web site.

    Good Luck

    Lost Sheep

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    Moderator Paul H's Avatar
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    Terminal balistics is a balance of wound channel diameter and penetration. Ideally you'd want the largest possible diameter of wound for maximum terminal effect, but if the wound isn't deep enough to reach the vitals, you'd made an unwise tradeoff.

    Even the most powerful handguns don't stack up to the most powerful rifles when it comes to driving an expanding bullet clear through a large animal. While debates can rage about what is best, you can't ignore the physics. So when you are looking at split second shot placement at likely bad shot presentation, go deep, go with hardcast. Also don't go crazy with velocity, heavy bullets at moderate velocity perform more reliably when it comes to drilling deep and breaking bones.

  11. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul H View Post
    Also don't go crazy with velocity, heavy bullets at moderate velocity perform more reliably when it comes to drilling deep and breaking bones.
    I've heard about this before (heavy hardcasts at moderate velocities penetrate virtually as well as the same load at high velocity). Where did this info come from though? Can you site any sources?

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    Default Sources?

    Quote Originally Posted by gritlife View Post
    I've heard about this before (heavy hardcasts at moderate velocities penetrate virtually as well as the same load at high velocity). Where did this info come from though? Can you site any sources?
    Probably the best source alive today supporting the big bullet position: John Linebaugh.

    For more information on the advantages of slow, big bullets, log on to John
    Linebaugh's web site. www.customsixguns.com

    You can also go to Alaska Fish & Game's web site.
    www.adfg.state.ak.us/
    and particularly about bears
    http://wildlife.alaska.gov/index.cfm?adfg=bears.main


    and then there are hundreds of books. These are (reportedly) entertaining and informative:
    Bear Attacks: The Deadly Truth
    Bear Encounter Survival Guide

    Both are by Gary Shelton

    Remember, almost everything you find in a forum (ALMOST, I said) is hearsay. Some good, some just hot air. But I found a lot last year, so went back and collected these threads (and these are just the ones I participated in and only on Alaska Outdoors) Many of the people posting are knowledgeable, expert, reputable, sincere and good writers (unlike me)

    At a minimum make sure to bring a .44mag
    Clean it real good.
    File down the front sigh and oil it up.
    This way it won’t hurt so much when that griz takes it from you and puts it where the sun don’t shine

    The first line of the couplet is the thread title, the second line is the address you can paste into your browser.

    Happy browsing.

    Would like ammo input for RH .44 mag
    http://forums.outdoorsdirectory.com/...d.php?p=190152

    44 Mag/Bear
    http://forums.outdoorsdirectory.com/...ad.php?t=23790

    Another 12 ga slug vs bear thread...
    http://forums.outdoorsdirectory.com/...ad.php?t=24560

    Best bear gun? This thread went on for a LONG time and generated considerable heat, but had some good stuff in it, too.
    http://forums.outdoorsdirectory.com/...ad.php?t=29852

    Handgun for fishing in Alaska? This was controversial, too
    http://forums.outdoorsdirectory.com/...ad.php?t=26831

    44 Mag Bear Stopping Ammo????
    http://forums.outdoorsdirectory.com/...ad.php?t=31771

    44 Magnum +P Ammo
    http://forums.outdoorsdirectory.com/...ad.php?t=31652

    .460 ammo for bear.....
    http://forums.outdoorsdirectory.com/...ad.php?t=31344

    First Handgun
    http://forums.outdoorsdirectory.com/...ad.php?t=31498
    in which bfrshooter opines: Hi guys, this is my first post here. It seems the paper energy figures fly around here too. Forget it, that is not what kills until you get a gun large enough to disassemble the animal. A large meplat, heavy boolit with all the penetration you can get is what works. A large primary wound channel through vitals.

    .44 vs .454
    http://forums.outdoorsdirectory.com/...ad.php?t=33873

    Whats a good revolver for bear defense?
    http://forums.outdoorsdirectory.com/...ad.php?t=37234

    .454 Casull or 44mag. Any real difference?
    http://forums.outdoorsdirectory.com/...ad.php?t=41291



    Remember, only believe half of what you see and one quarter of what you hear. That goes double for what you get from the internet. Even this post. Maybe especially this post.

    Also remember, even the idiotic stuff might have a kernel of truth buried in there somewhere.

    Lost Sheep

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    Nice work Lost Sheep.

    That's good advice and a lot of good info

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    Thanks alot Lost Sheep I got alot from that.

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    When I first got my 480 ruger, I had balisticast cut me a custom wfn style mold, I specified 450 gr and the bullet ended up 460gr with lube and gas check in place cast from wheel weights and quenched in water.

    I sent a box of them to a guy in the lower 48 to test at the linebaugh summer get together. He was loading them in a 480, and driving them 1100 fps. It's been a few years, but as I recall that bullet at a sedate 1100 fps penetrated 38" of wet newsprint. On the bone and newsprint test the bullet penetrated 2" of bone and 10" of newsprint.

    As I recall the results from that summers test the deepest penetrating 475 and 500 linebaugh loads were a bit over 40" of wet newsprint, I think one load went 44". So the lowly 480 was digging within 10% of the mightiest 475 and 500 loads, and at much more managable recoil levels.



    Bullet on the left was driven through 38" of newprint, bullet on the right went through the 2" of bone and 10" of newsprint.

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