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Thread: Tough Problems....

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    Default Tough Problems....

    I'm looking for some really tough reloading problems. Does anyone have an issue with loading that causes a wrinkle, literally or figuratively, that I could flex my noodle on. Be gentle with me I'm old. Or maybe just a little known caliber or one with no data available. I like wildcats, the wilder the better, just like my women.
    Is there nothing so sacred on this earth that you aren't willing to kill or die for?



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    Very little info on the 450 Marlin above 400gr bullets. H322 and Rl7 look like good powders. I have been trying to find max H322 loads for 460gr FNGC and 500gr hornady RN. What do you think?

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    Default 375 Weatherby

    How about where to start with the new Reloader 17 on a 375 Weatherby? I'm thinking it will be useful in that cartridge since 4350 is, but where to start? 300 grain Nosler Partitions at the top.
    "Everything that lives and moves will be food for you. Just as I gave you the green plants, I now give you everything."

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    Murphy
    How about the 350 Griffin & Howe? I have looked and searched every where for data with no luck. The only 2 loads I could find was in the book Cartridges of the World. I think it is a great cartridge that has been overlooked. Plus no reloading data.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Murphy View Post
    I'm looking for some really tough reloading problems. Does anyone have an issue with loading that causes a wrinkle, literally or figuratively, that I could flex my noodle on. Be gentle with me I'm old. Or maybe just a little known caliber or one with no data available. I like wildcats, the wilder the better, just like my women.
    I was just on the Hawk Bullet site and noted with great interest that they offer .416 FP bullets in 300, 350, and 400 grain weights (all with .035 jackets). As a long-time owner and fan of the 450 Alaskan, I'm more than casually curious what kind of ballistics I might get with those on a 348 case with the walls blown out to minimum suitable taper for a Model 71. OAL will be a factor of course, but Hawk will put cannelures where you want them.

    Care to speculate on the utility of the round in a tricked out M-71? It's sure sparked my interest!

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    Thumbs up tough reloading problem

    Quote Originally Posted by Murphy View Post
    for some tough reloading problems. Does anyone have a wrinkle, that I could flex my noodle on.I'm old. Or maybe just a little one. I like wildcats, the wilder the better, just like my women.
    I think I see a frustrating combo situation here Murphy. It seems to me that the problem isn't the "wild", it's the "old". You can research and write about it, but probably error on the discreet side and not get "too" personal. More info than some of us need to know. And maybe this thread would have been better in the "shooting" forum.
    If you like getting kicked by a mule...then you'll "love" shooting my .458.

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    If you're not already over loaded (no pun intended) I have a theorhetical one. I'm wondering how many grains of H4350 it take to make a max load in a .257 - 270 WSM wildcat with a 100 gr bullet?

    Thanks,

    Mark

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    Default .223 AR-15 reloading question

    This is a problem for me...I cannot find what the relationship is between muzzle velocity and acceptable pressure, in AR-15 reloads. Of course I know that pressure increases with muzzle velocity, but what is an acceptable range of muzzel velocity, since that is the only thing I can measure (with a Chrony). I read that too high a velocity and the pressure can slam the bolt too hard to the rear possibly causing damage to the rifle (and shooter).

    Sierra has tables for AR-15 reloading which indicate max loads. Should I adhere strictly to this, or is it possible to carefully go beyond, looking for signs of primer pressure, as I have done in bolt rifle reloads. Some of my best groups in .22-250 winter reloads have been beyond table max loads. If I go beyond max table loads, with the AR-15, how can I tell where I am in the acceptable "pressure range" for operating the gas operated semi-auto? I don't want to break this rifle.

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    Murphy,

    I can get .7 inch groups with my Ruger .375 shooting 260gr Accubonds very consistantly but I'm going nuts trying to get it to shoot better than an inch with 300's.

    I've tried Nosler Partitions, Sierra Game King, Hornady SPBT, Barnes TSX all in 300gr with RL-15, RL-19, Win 760, Big Game, 4007ssc, H-4350. I've set them up at 3.34 and worked down to .015 off the lands and tried Fed215, 215M and CCI 250's.

    I can get about an inch with a varity of combinations shooting around 2600fps in the 300's but I would like to find that majic load that preforms as good as the 260's.

    Am I beating a dead horse

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hunt-n-Fish View Post
    This is a problem for me...I cannot find what the relationship is between muzzle velocity and acceptable pressure, in AR-15 reloads. Of course I know that pressure increases with muzzle velocity, but what is an acceptable range of muzzel velocity, since that is the only thing I can measure (with a Chrony). I read that too high a velocity and the pressure can slam the bolt too hard to the rear possibly causing damage to the rifle (and shooter).

    Sierra has tables for AR-15 reloading which indicate max loads. Should I adhere strictly to this, or is it possible to carefully go beyond, looking for signs of primer pressure, as I have done in bolt rifle reloads. Some of my best groups in .22-250 winter reloads have been beyond table max loads. If I go beyond max table loads, with the AR-15, how can I tell where I am in the acceptable "pressure range" for operating the gas operated semi-auto? I don't want to break this rifle.
    pressures as listed in the loading manuals are consistant only with that particular load...brass, primer, powder and bullet. it is accurate only with that test rifle or pressure barrel. these loads are consistant with proper loading proceedures and are safe for all firearms in good condition chambered for that round.

    semi-auto's aren't as strong as bolt actions, and the gas systems are designed to operate within a pressure range. this is consistant with saami specs. so, generally it is best to stick to those loads that approximate standard or factory velocities. game will never know the difference 100fps faster (or slower) than spec ammunition, and your rifle will operate as it was intended. the m1 garand is an example of standard loading requirements. even though it is a strong action, high velocity loads WILL damage it. stick to factory velocities and be safe.

    happy trails.
    jh

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hunt-n-Fish View Post
    This is a problem for me...I cannot find what the relationship is between muzzle velocity and acceptable pressure, in AR-15 reloads. Of course I know that pressure increases with muzzle velocity, but what is an acceptable range of muzzel velocity, since that is the only thing I can measure (with a Chrony). I read that too high a velocity and the pressure can slam the bolt too hard to the rear possibly causing damage to the rifle (and shooter).

    Sierra has tables for AR-15 reloading which indicate max loads. Should I adhere strictly to this, or is it possible to carefully go beyond, looking for signs of primer pressure, as I have done in bolt rifle reloads. Some of my best groups in .22-250 winter reloads have been beyond table max loads. If I go beyond max table loads, with the AR-15, how can I tell where I am in the acceptable "pressure range" for operating the gas operated semi-auto? I don't want to break this rifle.

    Gas operated AR rifles have a port down the barrel that lets gas out to, in this case act directly on the mechanism, after the bullet passes the port. You will note that the port will be placed variously depending on the length of the barrel and/or the lenght of the forend. Pressure will be different at each location yet the same ammo is used. Without knowing the barrel length or what configuration you have I can speak only generically about it. Slow burning powders will retain higher pressure farther down the tube than fast burners. With the shorter barrels and gas blocks located closer to the receiver, faster powders will be friendlier to the operating system. Powder curves respond with time. A certain time to achieve peak pressure and a corresponding time to decay to exit pressure. Fast powders are fast both directions and likewise for slow powders. With standard length and 20" barrels I find the Varget, Benchmark, H4895 range of powders best for optimum velocity and still stay easy on the operation. Powders such as H322, Vihta 130 and 4198 are probably better for the close gas block (short) rifles.

    Now this all assumes that none of the loads are in excess of SAAMI specs for pressure. High pressure is still high pressure and will be harder on the rifle. The general conscept that an auto-loader is not as strong as a bolt isn't actually true. The multi-lug steel to steel lockup of an AR is very strong. We just don't open a bolt gun before the bullet leaves the barrel. We do open the AR action while the bullet is in the barrel and pressures are quite high. After the bullet is half way down an AR barrel (past the port) we open the action. What happens next is very much a product of pressure-at-the-port. If pressure is high enough to keep the case expanded against the chamber wall, the extractor will pull hard on the rim and leave a mark, usually bending the rim slightly. If pressure at the port is higher than what is needed extra energy will be applied to the actuation and will eject a case with gusto. Slammming this hot case against the ejector will usually leave a mark. This yank and slam will leave tell tale signs on the cases. Study your cases and learn more about your loads. It is considered quite normal for military arms and ammo but that is to be sure of extraction and ejection in the worst of conditions.

    When we aren't being shot at this is less of a consideration and we are more concerned about not breaking or prematurely wearing out our rifle. The AR gas system is not adjustable but has a limit by closing off, actually venting off the gas after firing but these limits can still be hard on brass and be more damaging to the gun. We can adjust or tune the gas system by changing powder burn rates, not by changing charge weight. Varying powder charge by one or two grains won't change the pressure at the port by any measurable amount. Changing to a slower or faster powder can vary the pressure at the port by 5,000 psi. That can matter a lot.

    Short gas tubes just work the action harder because the port pressure is higher. No way around it. Mid length tubes aren't so bad and can be tuned by selecting a faster or slower powder. The long barreled standard length forend rifles are easiest to tune and operate at the lowest pressure. Lighter bullets and faster powder will drop the pressure at the port but lighter bullets are faster bullets and they clear the port sooner so this seems to be a wash. Heavier bullets and fast powder will likely be the best combo for shorty guns.

    Find a powder burn rate chart, the Vihta has the most up to date I've seen in a manual but I think the Hodgdon's web site has one with all the newest powders. In that chart select a fast medium and slow powder all suitable for the 223. Obviously there are faster and slower powders that are not suitable for the 223/5.56mm.

    The Garand rifle has its gas port all the way down at the end of the barrel. It is a hole of appropriate size that allows gas to flow freely to operate the action. The required pressure is 14,500 psi +/- about 7,000 psi. With powders in the mid burn rate 4895, 4064, RL-15 it seems to work just fine. This is because the size of the port and the pressure remaining when the bullet is way down near the end make a compatable system. When we use slow powders that are otherwise suitable for the 30-06 cartridge, such as 4831 or RL-22, it wont be so happy. These slow burners have peaked their pressure and the pressure curve is starting to decay but much slower than the mid burners. Therefore the pressure at the port is much higher in the barrel when the bullet passes the port and this higher pressure forces the action back very hard. This can and has damaged the operating rod of the Garand rifle. This higher pressure at the port is what damages the Garand and it may or not be higher velocity.

    We, of course, could compensate for this higher pressure by making a smaller port opening but then the mid burner powders wouldn't be enough to operate the action. The M14 and AR rifles though they have different gas systems they are much more forgiving of port pressure fluctuations. They do have limits. I think the AR port and pressure are best balanced at mid to standard length systems. I think the figure is 20,000 to 22,000 psi and even this can vary with bullet weight. We do make gas ports smaller for short rifles but we still need enough port to get the volume of gas to operate the system, this small case holds very little powder and makes a smaller volume of gas than a 308 or 30-06.

    Now back to basics. The Sierra manual probably has the best AR data for standard length 20 to 24" barreled rifles as these loads are for match guns. Your mileage may vary but study the cases and change powders and look for results. The chronograph is the only way to tell actual velocity but you may have a higher pressure load without higher velocity. The careful handloader can adapt the loads to his rifle.
    Is there nothing so sacred on this earth that you aren't willing to kill or die for?



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    Quote Originally Posted by marshall View Post
    Murphy,

    I can get .7 inch groups with my Ruger .375 shooting 260gr Accubonds very consistantly but I'm going nuts trying to get it to shoot better than an inch with 300's.

    I've tried Nosler Partitions, Sierra Game King, Hornady SPBT, Barnes TSX all in 300gr with RL-15, RL-19, Win 760, Big Game, 4007ssc, H-4350. I've set them up at 3.34 and worked down to .015 off the lands and tried Fed215, 215M and CCI 250's.

    I can get about an inch with a varity of combinations shooting around 2600fps in the 300's but I would like to find that majic load that preforms as good as the 260's.

    Am I beating a dead horse
    A rifle does not care much about bullet weight. A rifle cares about barrel vibrations. We need every shot to be the same and every shot to give the slightest barrel vibrations. Harmonics they say, which are multiples of resonant frequencies, are what makes a hummer barrel. The very best accuracy is achieved at only one point of harmonic vibration and, here's the biggy, these harmonics are a function of bullet velocity and pressure curve. Velocity is what it is. We cannot make a 300 grain bullet go as fast as a 260 but we can slow down the 260 grain. We can tune pressure curves with the powder burn rates. Sometimes this isn't enough. If you run your 260's at the same velocity as the 300's the 260's will shoot about an inch and you'll have to be happy with that.

    Your hummer velocity is at the speed of the 260's. The closer you get to that velocity the better the group should be. Personally I think your being picky. If I could shoot a 375 into an inch I'd be the slayer of great beast from afar. I've made many shots with 375 caliber rifles at greater than 300 yards and none of the guns (not with me behind them) would shoot my hunting loads into an inch.

    My 375 Ruger, when it began to shoot, had a McM stock bedded full length and 300 rounds of break in. It doesn't seem to care about bullets but it has an addiction to H4350. That powder and a primer and anybody's bullet and I guess it does shoot into an inch. One other thing, short rigid barrrels (mine is 20") seem to have a broader range of sweet spots different bullets, different velocities.
    Is there nothing so sacred on this earth that you aren't willing to kill or die for?



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    Quote Originally Posted by MontanaRifleman View Post
    If you're not already over loaded (no pun intended) I have a theorhetical one. I'm wondering how many grains of H4350 it take to make a max load in a .257 - 270 WSM wildcat with a 100 gr bullet?

    Thanks,

    Mark
    I have loaded for the 6.5-300WSM. Your 257 is listed as a 25-300WSM. The 270 and 300 are the same case, the 7mm is about .050" longer to the shoulder for obvious reasons. I have not loaded for the 25 caliber. My experience tells me that H4350 is too fast for that expansion ratio. I settled on Retumbo for the 6.5 with 120 grain and heavier. I would say your 25 WSM will max out about 50 to 52 grains of H4350 and will digest about 60 grains of Retumbo with the 100 grain bullet. This slower burning rate, including RL-25, H4831 and IMR 7828 are better suited to that capacity and bore size.
    Is there nothing so sacred on this earth that you aren't willing to kill or die for?



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    Quote Originally Posted by Murphy View Post
    I have loaded for the 6.5-300WSM. Your 257 is listed as a 25-300WSM. The 270 and 300 are the same case, the 7mm is about .050" longer to the shoulder for obvious reasons. I have not loaded for the 25 caliber. My experience tells me that H4350 is too fast for that expansion ratio. I settled on Retumbo for the 6.5 with 120 grain and heavier. I would say your 25 WSM will max out about 50 to 52 grains of H4350 and will digest about 60 grains of Retumbo with the 100 grain bullet. This slower burning rate, including RL-25, H4831 and IMR 7828 are better suited to that capacity and bore size.
    Thanks Murphy, what kind of velocity did you get with the 120 bullet?

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    Quote Originally Posted by BrownBear View Post
    I was just on the Hawk Bullet site and noted with great interest that they offer .416 FP bullets in 300, 350, and 400 grain weights (all with .035 jackets). As a long-time owner and fan of the 450 Alaskan, I'm more than casually curious what kind of ballistics I might get with those on a 348 case with the walls blown out to minimum suitable taper for a Model 71. OAL will be a factor of course, but Hawk will put cannelures where you want them.

    Care to speculate on the utility of the round in a tricked out M-71? It's sure sparked my interest!
    I think I have some 416 325 grain Hawks that are .050" jackets. I want to test them out. I think the smart and effective way to improve the 348 would be to neck it to 416". There is a 416 Alaskan, I guess it is called, on the 450 Alaskan case, the 348 shortened slightly. And there is a 416-348 Ackley Improved, this on the full sized 348 case. The shortened version would be my pick. It will hold enough powder to shake the screws out of the 71 and would also eliminate any over length problems with various bullets. I believe this the reasoning behind the shortened 450 Alaskan, it could handle any of the heavier bullets and still cycle through the action of the 71.

    I'd have to calculate a bit but my educated guess would be 400 grains at just under 2000 fps, I'm not sure where we want to be for pressures for the 71. I think that would be the limit or maybe lower because we drive the 45-70 with 400 grains to that level for a limit with the other levers.

    This would be the level of the 450-400 Nitro Express or nearly so. The old N.E pushes 400 grains to 2150 for most doubles. My own 411 pushes the 400 grains to 2250 ish but it is a Mauser bolt. I do like 40 caliber rifles. Let's see there is the 40-70 Sharps straight in a saddle rifle, the 40-65 Winchester '86 carbine, the 450-400 3" Ruger No. 1, the 416 Murphy, the 411, the 404 Dakota, yeah I do like the forties.

    My 411 has exceeded my expectations in performance. I invisioned it as about 300 grains at 2500 and the 350 A-frame as my tough top dog and hoped for 2300 it seems 2400 easy from the 21 inch barrel with only 62.0 grains of H4895. That's a very efficient forty caliber.

    Yes Hawk is a true custom bullet maker, they've made some special runs for my and are now making some 325 and 350 in .411" both at .035" jackets.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Murphy View Post
    I think I have some 416 325 grain Hawks that are .050" jackets. I want to test them out. I think the smart and effective way to improve the 348 would be to neck it to 416". There is a 416 Alaskan, I guess it is called, on the 450 Alaskan case, the 348 shortened slightly. And there is a 416-348 Ackley Improved, this on the full sized 348 case. The shortened version would be my pick. It will hold enough powder to shake the screws out of the 71 and would also eliminate any over length problems with various bullets. I believe this the reasoning behind the shortened 450 Alaskan, it could handle any of the heavier bullets and still cycle through the action of the 71.

    I'd have to calculate a bit but my educated guess would be 400 grains at just under 2000 fps, I'm not sure where we want to be for pressures for the 71. I think that would be the limit or maybe lower because we drive the 45-70 with 400 grains to that level for a limit with the other levers.

    This would be the level of the 450-400 Nitro Express or nearly so. The old N.E pushes 400 grains to 2150 for most doubles. My own 411 pushes the 400 grains to 2250 ish but it is a Mauser bolt. I do like 40 caliber rifles. Let's see there is the 40-70 Sharps straight in a saddle rifle, the 40-65 Winchester '86 carbine, the 450-400 3" Ruger No. 1, the 416 Murphy, the 411, the 404 Dakota, yeah I do like the forties.

    My 411 has exceeded my expectations in performance. I invisioned it as about 300 grains at 2500 and the 350 A-frame as my tough top dog and hoped for 2300 it seems 2400 easy from the 21 inch barrel with only 62.0 grains of H4895. That's a very efficient forty caliber.

    Yes Hawk is a true custom bullet maker, they've made some special runs for my and are now making some 325 and 350 in .411" both at .035" jackets.
    Thanks for the calculations and estimates, Murphy. That's in the neighborhood of my offhand guesses, but I've been away from home two months with no library to do the work myself. I knew I'd probably lose some from what my 450 pushes a 400, but hadn't guessed it would be quite that much.

    I'm using older, more conservative data for my loads to a little over 2100 with no problems in 30 years. I still need to determine once and for all if mine is the original version or the improved. The shoulder on the cases tells me it's the latter. Guess I need to explore new powders with it someday too, but I'm still not inclined to push the pressures akin to what some do with the 45-70 in the Marlin these days.

    I still want to replace the old veteran with a newer gun I can scuff up, and right now 40 cal is moving ahead of 45 cal in my thoughts.

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    Default .223 AR-15 reloading question

    Quote Originally Posted by Hunt-n-Fish View Post
    This is a problem for me...I cannot find what the relationship is between muzzle velocity and acceptable pressure, in AR-15 reloads. Of course I know that pressure increases with muzzle velocity, but what is an acceptable range of muzzel velocity, since that is the only thing I can measure (with a Chrony). I read that too high a velocity and the pressure can slam the bolt too hard to the rear possibly causing damage to the rifle (and shooter).

    Sierra has tables for AR-15 reloading which indicate max loads. Should I adhere strictly to this, or is it possible to carefully go beyond, looking for signs of primer pressure, as I have done in bolt rifle reloads. Some of my best groups in .22-250 winter reloads have been beyond table max loads. If I go beyond max table loads, with the AR-15, how can I tell where I am in the acceptable "pressure range" for operating the gas operated semi-auto? I don't want to break this rifle.

    Found my answer. I went to the Powder sites and they show pressure for their starting loads and maximum loads.

    Thanks

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hunt-n-Fish View Post
    Found my answer. I went to the Powder sites and they show pressure for their starting loads and maximum loads.

    Thanks
    Ok. I guess I didn't understand the question.
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackfoot View Post
    How about where to start with the new Reloader 17 on a 375 Weatherby? I'm thinking it will be useful in that cartridge since 4350 is, but where to start? 300 grain Nosler Partitions at the top.

    That's a good question. I haven't seen RL-17 yet. If it is of the quality of the other Alliant powders and does fall between H4350 and RL-19, the best place to start is with H4350 charge weights and work up. It's burn rate should be ideally matched to the case capacity of the 375 Wy and 300 grain bullets. If you find data for other calibers you could compare the charge weights with H4350 and RL-19 this will establish its burn and go from there. If it falls in the middle load accordingly. I'd load 85.0 grains of RL-17 and step up one grain steps and chronograph five at a time until the goal is reached or pressure signs indicate.
    Is there nothing so sacred on this earth that you aren't willing to kill or die for?



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    Quote Originally Posted by Murphy View Post
    A rifle does not care much about bullet weight. A rifle cares about barrel vibrations. We need every shot to be the same and every shot to give the slightest barrel vibrations. Harmonics they say, which are multiples of resonant frequencies, are what makes a hummer barrel. The very best accuracy is achieved at only one point of harmonic vibration and, here's the biggy, these harmonics are a function of bullet velocity and pressure curve. Velocity is what it is. We cannot make a 300 grain bullet go as fast as a 260 but we can slow down the 260 grain. We can tune pressure curves with the powder burn rates. Sometimes this isn't enough. If you run your 260's at the same velocity as the 300's the 260's will shoot about an inch and you'll have to be happy with that.

    Your hummer velocity is at the speed of the 260's. The closer you get to that velocity the better the group should be. Personally I think your being picky. If I could shoot a 375 into an inch I'd be the slayer of great beast from afar. I've made many shots with 375 caliber rifles at greater than 300 yards and none of the guns (not with me behind them) would shoot my hunting loads into an inch.

    My 375 Ruger, when it began to shoot, had a McM stock bedded full length and 300 rounds of break in. It doesn't seem to care about bullets but it has an addiction to H4350. That powder and a primer and anybody's bullet and I guess it does shoot into an inch. One other thing, short rigid barrrels (mine is 20") seem to have a broader range of sweet spots different bullets, different velocities.
    Thanks Murphy,

    I am being picky, it's my nature. This reloading hobby has made me even more picky. I found that 2810-2840fps is the sweet spot in my rifle with 260 or 270 grain bullets from three manufactors. It's an easy .7 three shot group at that weight and veloicity.

    I am still in the learning mode of this hobby and my mind is a sponge for information. I too thought that if I could push the 300gr to 2820 it would be better but I don't have the balls to load it that hot. I haven't pushed it really hard. When the bolt lift is firm or the primer shows flat or cratered I back down!

    Anyway, I realize that a one inch group at 100 yards is more than good enough to kill anything I get a shot at. I was just looking fo that majic combination in a 300gr for grins.

    In reality the 260 at my loaded velocites has more energy down range than the 300 at it's load spec.

    I did try loads with H4350 and I did get better than 1.25 moa but the velocity was a bet slow and I was compressed so no more speed was available.

    Thanks for the response...

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