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Thread: 2009 prices?

  1. #1
    Member akriverrat's Avatar
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    Default 2009 prices?

    what do you guys think is gonna happen with boat prices this year? with the prices of metal going down do you think it will drop the prices of the boats at the boat show this year? i stopped in last year and was surprised at how much the prices were compared to the year before.

  2. #2

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    Quote Originally Posted by akriverrat View Post
    what do you guys think is gonna happen with boat prices this year? with the prices of metal going down do you think it will drop the prices of the boats at the boat show this year? i stopped in last year and was surprised at how much the prices were compared to the year before.
    AKRiverrat,

    That's a good question. But, I would assume that they are going to try to get the 5-10 percent increase that they have been marking them up annually for the last 10 or so years and see what happens. I agree they have gotten really expensive. I remember, and it was not that long ago, that you could buy a really nicely set up Thunderjet at the boatshow for about 30-40 grand. They wanted considerable more than that last year.

    Personally, I think the easy credit that the banks had made for a balloon in all prices - not just mortgages. This year may be the year that they pop with the economy the way that it is. Used boat prices have gone down considerably.

    If I were a gambling man and this was Vegas, I would bet on them trying to get more this year, then finding out that they can't get more, and then advertising that they didn't mark prices up this year as a sale, and then around October, begging people to take them off the lot. I thnk marginal boat builders are going to go out of business.

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    Member Larsenvega's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by T.R. Bauer View Post

    If I were a gambling man and this was Vegas, I would bet on them trying to get more this year, then finding out that they can't get more, and then advertising that they didn't mark prices up this year as a sale, and then around October, begging people to take them off the lot. I thnk marginal boat builders are going to go out of business.
    My bet is that you are spot on with what you said above. They'll try for the higher profits initially, but find that the economy can't support it. There will most likely be some nice deals and steals to be found next fall when the dealers are forced to either sell or store their inventory.

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    Boat dealers in Alaska are like the people that refine our fuel. They will continue to gouge as long as they can get away with it.
    Since fuel has dropped so much in the lower 48 I would highly recommend you contact a lower 48 dealer and consider purchasing down there and either shipping the rig up here or driving down and hauling it back.
    Aluminum is selling for below what it did 5 years ago yet they still sing the old song and dance how metal prices have peaked.
    http://www.kitcometals.com/charts/al...istorical.html
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  5. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by Snowwolfe View Post
    Boat dealers in Alaska are like the people that refine our fuel. They will continue to gouge as long as they can get away with it.
    Since fuel has dropped so much in the lower 48 I would highly recommend you contact a lower 48 dealer and consider purchasing down there and either shipping the rig up here or driving down and hauling it back.
    Aluminum is selling for below what it did 5 years ago yet they still sing the old song and dance how metal prices have peaked.
    http://www.kitcometals.com/charts/al...istorical.html
    I thought they were the same people.........I guess I got it wrong.

  6. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by Snowwolfe View Post
    Aluminum is selling for below what it did 5 years ago yet they still sing the old song and dance how metal prices have peaked.
    http://www.kitcometals.com/charts/al...istorical.html
    I wish that was true in my shop. 5 yrs ago I was paying $1.17 per pound / 10,000 pound minimum. This past week I paid $1.65 / 10,000 min. (Down from a high of $2.29 a short time back)

    Only other item that has dropped is carpet. Many companies are still charging a fuel surcharge. That just burns my azz!

  7. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Turner View Post
    I wish that was true in my shop. 5 yrs ago I was paying $1.17 per pound / 10,000 pound minimum. This past week I paid $1.65 / 10,000 min. (Down from a high of $2.29 a short time back)

    Only other item that has dropped is carpet. Many companies are still charging a fuel surcharge. That just burns my azz!

    I hear yeah. Prices go up like a rocket and come down light as a feather. I doubt the collective "we" are going to get fuel relief or any other relief any time soon. It sucks.

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    Member DMan's Avatar
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    The Aluminum cost is only part of it. Aluminum cost is typically around 20% or less in many cases in the cost to you of a boat.

    Look at it this way. Say in a 22' boat with an enclosed cabin, i.e. Hewes, Weldcraft, etc. There is less that 10K (to the builder) of aluminum in that boat. Then figure the base package has 1K in electronics, 11K in a motor, and say another 2K in rigging materials and seats. At the end of the day that boat only has about 25K in materials in it before they start charging you upgrades. Thats only HALF of what you are paying for the boat. Most the rest of the cost is in labor and markups.

    So when they say that the cost of aluminum went up 10% thats maybe a 1K increase per year over the last several years. The reality is I would bet the cost of rent, utilities, etc. + wages due to taxes, social security, medicare, state taxes, Healthcare (for those that offer it) etc, etc, etc has gone up way more than aluminum.

    I say all this to say at the end of the day it isn't really aluminum that has driven the price increases but it has been a good scape goat. The reality is if we are going to pay it they are going to charge it! A 22' Hewes 5 years ago only cost 36K out the door new. That boat is close to 50K out the door now......

    The sad thing is that there is minimal cost difference in aluminum between a 22' and 26' boat. There is more labor but only 4' of boat more and look how much more they charge for those boats.
    ... aboard the 'Memory Maker' Making Memories one Wave at a Time!

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    Member DMan's Avatar
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    One more thought, I predict you will see prices at least as high is not maybe an increase this year. Reason, builders are selling less boats due to the economy and therefore must be more profitable if they are going to avoid cutbacks or downsizing. I expect that they are going to try and hold on as long as they can without downsizing with the prayer that everything comes back to normal boat sales.

    My 2 cents (which are usually worth about that! )
    ... aboard the 'Memory Maker' Making Memories one Wave at a Time!

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    Member Akgramps's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DMan View Post
    The Aluminum cost is only part of it. Aluminum cost is typically around 20% or less in many cases in the cost to you of a boat.

    Look at it this way. Say in a 22' boat with an enclosed cabin, i.e. Hewes, Weldcraft, etc. There is less that 10K (to the builder) of aluminum in that boat. Then figure the base package has 1K in electronics, 11K in a motor, and say another 2K in rigging materials and seats. At the end of the day that boat only has about 25K in materials in it before they start charging you upgrades. Thats only HALF of what you are paying for the boat. Most the rest of the cost is in labor and markups.

    So when they say that the cost of aluminum went up 10% thats maybe a 1K increase per year over the last several years. The reality is I would bet the cost of rent, utilities, etc. + wages due to taxes, social security, medicare, state taxes, Healthcare (for those that offer it) etc, etc, etc has gone up way more than aluminum.

    I say all this to say at the end of the day it isn't really aluminum that has driven the price increases but it has been a good scape goat. The reality is if we are going to pay it they are going to charge it! A 22' Hewes 5 years ago only cost 36K out the door new. That boat is close to 50K out the door now......

    The sad thing is that there is minimal cost difference in aluminum between a 22' and 26' boat. There is more labor but only 4' of boat more and look how much more they charge for those boats.
    There are a lot more costs in doing business than there used to be, we can blame some of that on our goverment, we have a contracting business and overhead is in a continual upswing, some of that is fuel surcharges and material cost, but there is so many ridiculous requirements to meet that add up.
    Also I dont know what kinda motor for a 22 foot boat you could get for 11K? Last time I checked 2 years ago they wanted 11K for 115 E-tech.
    What about a Trailer? Spare tire, I doubt 2K would cover, control box seats, guages, Fuel tanks, bilge pump, switch panel, wipers, fan, ect ect, all the little hardware you never think of until you have to go and buy it. It really adds up. I would be suprised if boat builders are making 10-15% by the time they are done.
    For most of us boating is an expensive hobby, for many of thr builders it probably started as a hobby but needed to become a business for them to survive, I would rather see someone charge enuf to stay in business then be gone a couple of years later.
    My 2 cents

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    Member DMan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Akgramps View Post
    There are a lot more costs in doing business than there used to be, we can blame some of that on our goverment, we have a contracting business and overhead is in a continual upswing, some of that is fuel surcharges and material cost, but there is so many ridiculous requirements to meet that add up.
    Also I dont know what kinda motor for a 22 foot boat you could get for 11K? Last time I checked 2 years ago they wanted 11K for 115 E-tech.
    What about a Trailer? Spare tire, I doubt 2K would cover, control box seats, guages, Fuel tanks, bilge pump, switch panel, wipers, fan, ect ect, all the little hardware you never think of until you have to go and buy it. It really adds up. I would be suprised if boat builders are making 10-15% by the time they are done.
    For most of us boating is an expensive hobby, for many of thr builders it probably started as a hobby but needed to become a business for them to survive, I would rather see someone charge enuf to stay in business then be gone a couple of years later.
    My 2 cents
    AKgramps, I agree that I am missing stuff like windshield wipers and some smaller stuff but the boats I am referring to are very basic. On my Hewes invoice from Dewey's my trailer, motor, boat, etc etc was broken out separately so when I say 2K for this or that I am talking about what the dealer is adding from what the original boat package was. My point is that the material costs are only one factor in the overall price of the boat and that the builders are not taking that much profit but loosing most of it in labor and the cost of running the business. Which is why I believe prices will not immediately drop due to aluminum going down. I just don't see how aluminum affects the overall cost that much. Just because aluminum drops 10% doesn't mean the boat cost drops 10% when the aluminum is only 20% of the factor.
    ... aboard the 'Memory Maker' Making Memories one Wave at a Time!

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    Member akriverrat's Avatar
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    i too think the prices will go up 7 to 10 percent. which is fine by me at this time cause it will make my used boat for sale look that much better come spring. last year i seen a 21 foot boulton 350 - H212 turbo for about 44,000.00. nuthin special but a basic rag top inboard. i think prices are getting out of control myself. not to take anything away from boatbuilders but you guys mention labor costs and it makes me think what goes into building these boats when there design changes so little from year to year. think of all the labor that goes into the new ford truck and the equipment to put it together with pretty drastic designs every few years. its pretty hard these days to get a boat with adequate horespower with a windshield and top for under 30k. not impossible just getting tougher.

  13. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by Akgramps View Post
    There are a lot more costs in doing business than there used to be, we can blame some of that on our goverment, we have a contracting business and overhead is in a continual upswing, some of that is fuel surcharges and material cost, but there is so many ridiculous requirements to meet that add up.
    Also I dont know what kinda motor for a 22 foot boat you could get for 11K? Last time I checked 2 years ago they wanted 11K for 115 E-tech.
    What about a Trailer? Spare tire, I doubt 2K would cover, control box seats, guages, Fuel tanks, bilge pump, switch panel, wipers, fan, ect ect, all the little hardware you never think of until you have to go and buy it. It really adds up. I would be suprised if boat builders are making 10-15% by the time they are done.
    For most of us boating is an expensive hobby, for many of thr builders it probably started as a hobby but needed to become a business for them to survive, I would rather see someone charge enuf to stay in business then be gone a couple of years later.
    My 2 cents

    I agree with many of the things that you brought up. But, something that nobody has pointed out, boats just keep getting nicer and nicer. For me, it is enough to have a potta jon, a decent, sink, a heater/cooktop, someplace to sleep - just the basics. That is even expensive any more.

    Stuff has gone up, no question about it. But the price of the boat and salary increases nationally are not a one to one relationship. In the early 90s my brother bought a 21 foot V8 Maxum Ski boat brand new for around 13 thousand. It is a beautiful boat. Now, for nearly the same boat, you're out 30 thousand, or a little more. And you know what, they have really significantly changed anything. My pay has not gone up that much, but I sure wish it had!

    I do not proclaim to know why anything goes up, clearly there are some reasons, but often it is a little hazy. The future is going to be tough times for boats builders. There will be no more mortgaging the house to buy a boat, truck, hottub, or whatever. Heck the boating giant Olympic Boat Centers is going under owing 47 million. I foresee many others following. I think that the the boat builders that do manage to stay around will have make simple, relatively inexpensive, and high quality boats to survive.

  14. #14

    Default Manufacturing costs

    A few things we never see go down in the manufacturing cost are:
    * Pay Roll tax. It is paid by the employer every quarter, the more money the govt gives away the more we pay to cover it
    * Unemployment tax. The more people get laid off due to bad economy the more we pay to cover the payouts.
    * Workers comp. as health care rises so does work comp then all it takes is one claim and your rates go even higher.
    * Heating cost. My heating costs have doubled in the last 3 years, in Alaska we heat our buildings more months than we don't, and when manufacturing we have to ventilate the allready heated air out and heat all the new air coming in, it can make it hard to compete with a southern company that can just open doors and bring in freash air more months than they have to heat.
    * All the pieces and parts go up as raw material and freight charges go up and they never drop back down since they don't have to follow the market corrections.
    * Building rent, lease, purchase, taxes
    * Inventory tax, thank you to our next Senator and soon to be past Mayor of Anch. we get to pay an inventory tax on anything we have in posession on Dec. 31 so we try to keep people working by building inventory over the winter but have to pay a handsome tax on all our materials and finised products.

    Bottom line is it has to get passed on to the consumer.

    All of my manufacturing is done with steel, in 04 or 05 my steel cost doubled but I could not pass that all on. Agian in 08 my steel cost rose nearly 60% and could not pass all of that on since there is a limit to how much an end user will pay so it has to come out of the profit.

    You can be sure that there are enough manufacturers of all items we buy and each is trying to build it as inexpensively as they can that no one company can just gouge the end user as one part of the cost may go down.
    19' Lowe Roughneck
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  15. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lowe & Slow View Post
    A few things we never see go down in the manufacturing cost are:
    * Pay Roll tax. It is paid by the employer every quarter, the more money the govt gives away the more we pay to cover it
    * Unemployment tax. The more people get laid off due to bad economy the more we pay to cover the payouts.
    * Workers comp. as health care rises so does work comp then all it takes is one claim and your rates go even higher.
    * Heating cost. My heating costs have doubled in the last 3 years, in Alaska we heat our buildings more months than we don't, and when manufacturing we have to ventilate the allready heated air out and heat all the new air coming in, it can make it hard to compete with a southern company that can just open doors and bring in freash air more months than they have to heat.
    * All the pieces and parts go up as raw material and freight charges go up and they never drop back down since they don't have to follow the market corrections.
    * Building rent, lease, purchase, taxes
    * Inventory tax, thank you to our next Senator and soon to be past Mayor of Anch. we get to pay an inventory tax on anything we have in posession on Dec. 31 so we try to keep people working by building inventory over the winter but have to pay a handsome tax on all our materials and finised products.

    Bottom line is it has to get passed on to the consumer.

    All of my manufacturing is done with steel, in 04 or 05 my steel cost doubled but I could not pass that all on. Agian in 08 my steel cost rose nearly 60% and could not pass all of that on since there is a limit to how much an end user will pay so it has to come out of the profit.

    You can be sure that there are enough manufacturers of all items we buy and each is trying to build it as inexpensively as they can that no one company can just gouge the end user as one part of the cost may go down.
    Great post...

  16. #16

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    I have been researching boat prices for seveal years now. I also own and manage a manufacturing business. I see the dealers are selling 08's, 20' boats with v-8's, nicely equipped for 28k-33k! this spring the were listed for 50-53k. this tells me we are seeing a market correction. Certain types have been overpriced because of the supply and demand thing. capitalism is the american way. but.... a few dealers burnt down there customer base by taking too much. When i started out my grandfather told me" you can shear a sheep my times but you can only skin him once". I live by his advice, and in a small marketplace, i'm fortunate to have customer loyalty, first is the quality,second is price. I think the skinny water boats have been 20k over priced. if they make 85 boats a year, they have production techniques down pat. I penciled it out, in my shop, without discounts on volume purchase of materials, I could build the boats way cheaper than the sell them for. the discounted boats they are clearing out now is what they should sell 'em for. But what do you do...make your own or pay the price. Just my 2 cents worth.

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