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Thread: Gadgets - Pro/Con

  1. #1
    Member Stogey's Avatar
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    Default Gadgets - Pro/Con

    So, one thread is being hijacked - here's a thread to air your opinion...

    Some traditional archers believe that all someone should hunt with is a piece of selected wood, some sinew and a few dozen cedar shafts. Anything else just isn't right.

    Some feel that range finders, releases and sights are not in the interest of fair chase.

    Some archers believe that guns are unfair.

    Some gun hunters believe that only primitive black powder muskets should be allowed.

    Some muzzle loaders feel that guns that have a shotgun primer are not muzzle loaders.

    Some rifle hunters feel that if you use more than a 22 caliber gun you are using too much.

    Some feel that game should be taken with a pistol.

    Ad nauseam.

    No matter your belief on how man came to be on this planet; we can all agree that we started with a brain, no tools and a desire to create stuff. So, spears, bows, arrows, knifes, axes, crossbows, muskets, rifles, etc...

    What is 'technology?' - At what point has our tool exceeded a fair hunt?

    In my opinion - this is exactly the reason hunters loose and will continue to loose their rights to hunt.

    We can't even agree on what constitutes 'hunting.'

  2. #2

    Default Interesting Thread

    Here's an article that was sent to me a few months ago that discusses "walking the line" between hunting and shooting. I thought it was a good article, albeit one man's opinion.
    Attached Files Attached Files

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    Member Stogey's Avatar
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    Default Thanks...

    That's a good article - interesting perspectives.

    I like the closing - something to the effect of: If we don't start regulating ourselves, the decisions may be made for us...
    I'd twist it a bit and say if we don't unite (which will require some empathy from all parties).

    I don't have to agree with the use of traditional bows, compound bows, crossbows, pistols, blackpowder, muzzle loaders, rifles, spotting scopes, range finders, sights, knives, feeders, bait, etc., but I should still support your desire.

  4. #4
    Member AKDoug's Avatar
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    I enjoy archery. To me archery is more than bowhunting, it's an entire lifestyle of practicing, developing good technique and accuracy. My family's addiction to archery started with traditional equipment, proceeded to compounds with hunting sights, all the way up to the most modern sights and equipment allowed in Freestyle target events. As a family we tune our own compound bows, setup our own equipment, build our own strings and do our own repairs. We enjoy every aspect of archery.

    I am as much addicted to target archery as I am bowhunting. I enjoy the competition greatly and so does my son. I enjoy target archery shooting bowhunter freestyle competition the most. I am allowed a compound bow, a 5 pin sight, a short stabilizer and a release in most sanctioned events. Some sanctioning bodies have restrictions on types of arrows and some other small differences, but bowhunter freestyle is pretty similar throughout most associations. I shoot yardages from 1 yard all the way to over 100 yards in competition.

    This addiction to target archery has led me down a great path that has built friendships throughout Alaska, the USA and even a few gents from Australia. I have been blessed to win several state titles in indoor, 3D and Field. My son has also won several state titles. For several years we have traveled throughout the country to shoot various types of tournaments and they are extremely fun. I haven't found any success at the national level, but I have met dozens of new friends that I keep in contact with all year long. Those friendships are better than any trophy, any day.

    I liken what division I shoot in archery as similar to the equipment that F-class or silhouette shooters in the firearms world compete in. There are more entry level shooting classes and there are far more exotic classes to shoot in. To make myself a better and more accurate bowhunter I chose to shoot with sights and a release. I don't look up to archers that use more gadgets than I do, nor do I look down upon archers that use less gadgets than I do.

    Through a tremendous amount of practice and dedication I have found that I can accurately hit the kill on any big game animal in Alaska at 50 yards. However, while my ethics are not challenged by taking shots that long, I will not take a shot at an animal beyond 30 yards without a range finder. To do so violates my own ethical standards. If I have the time I will range any animal at less than 30 yards. I like being able to know that I will hit within an inch of where I am aiming if I know the exact distance.

    Here is where I depart from my bowhunting bretheren. Other than special situations where public safety is a concern (ie: urban are hunts), I don't think there is a need for any special archery seasons in Alaska (or blackpowder for that matter). It just makes a "special" group of people that have more privileges than another group of hunters. That takes the wind right out of the sails of the trad vs. compound, gadget vs. no gadget, argument. Run what ya' brung...
    • Rifle (scoped, unscoped)
    • blackpowder (scoped, unscoped, muzzle loaded, breachload..etc)
    • crossbow (scope or unscoped)
    • Bow (selfbow, recurve (sights or no), longbow, compound (sights or no)
    As long as it meets the minimum requirement set forth by the B.O.G. and the State go for it. When you type out the lists of all the weapons and their variations available you see how ridiculous and unending the whole gadget argument is. There is no need for division amongst the hunting ranks. We are all simply sending projectiles downrange that will harvest an animal with as little suffering as possible. We should support each other and quit trying to sell OUR method of projectile launching as better than someone else's.
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  5. #5
    Member Rick P's Avatar
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    Stogey
    OK, well I wasn't hijacking anything! I do appreciate this post though and I totally disagree with you. First it's not that I think range finders sights and releases detract from fair chase, it's that they give lazy hunters who have no more dedication to the hunting lifestyle than a arm chair quarter back the false impression they have the skills to call themselves hunters. In the hands of a skilled outdoors person a range finder could be helpful. A release can extend even a trad shooters hunting career. And many folks can't pull a trad bow in hunting weights. However that doesn't mean these folks are reliant on the gadgets in there pocket. I have seen Paul teach several beginners classes at the archers den. He starts everyone out shooting fingers without sights, why? Well to biuld on the basics and form a good foundation, as well as teaching self discipline, of course. Problem is we have way to many Nugent wannabes running off to the sportsman's warehouse and skipping all the training and dedication needed to be proficient with there weapons. And these wonderful yahoo's bring there fast cut, high fence, out doors show ethics with them!

    I have seen folks on another web sight post things like "Lost 3 deer so far this year, I think I gut shot them" And not one post says get the hell out of the woods and practice! Lack of Unity is hardly our problem, tolerance of sport killers is! Our public image is dramatically damaged by the industries built up around the hunting lifestyle everyday through there support of canned hunting shows. Folks who haven't bothered to learn the deep traditions and values of a hunter wound animals every year causing needless suffering and further embarrassment. Several years ago some jack ass stuck a moose up on hill side in the hind end with an arrow. This was when there was a archery season up there, any how the moose headed right for town and TV2 made sure they had footage of this poor critter slowly dieing on the news each night. Now there is no archery hunt in the anchorage bowl. Allowing the kind of behavior we all see every year to continue in the name of unity, wanton waste, fudging the regs, folks who can't hit the broad side of a barn, drunken foolishness and the list goes on and on to go on unchecked is far more damaging than a little "I'm more a purist than you are" bickering.

    Personally I could careless about the gadgets in your pocket or the cost of your weapon, as long as your ethics are solid.

    So as to the pro's and con's of gadgets I personally find them less than useless as a whole and have found self reliance through dedication and practice much more rewording. I will give you that sat phones and GPS units have made the hunting safer, but they to must be used in consort with good old fashioned safety consciousness and map skills.

    PS I do think hunting with a crossbow during archery season and several of the line muzzleloaders fall under the "Fudging the regs category" but like my signature line reads That's just my opinion.

    PSS AK Doug is a great example of a techy who holds hunting to it's highest standards. He and many others like him are the folks we need in hunting.
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    Member AKDoug's Avatar
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    Personally I could careless about the gadgets in your pocket or the cost of your weapon, as long as your ethics are solid.
    That's it in a nutshell. However you let your bias against gadgets slip in that other thread. I have personally hunted with a no sight traditional guy and a barebow compound shooter that had very few ethics in regards to flinging Hail Mary arrows at animals. I would have much prefered them to be shooting a release and sights and being more accurate. BTW..Nuge shoots without sights

    I see no reasonable way of assuring good ethics and good skills in the field without killing hunting completely. There have been slob hunters since bows were invented..or guns for that matter. Getting down on someone for using a "gadget" which might be an essential "tool" to other hunters is not a good way to foster new hunters.
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  7. #7

    Default Gadgets

    "WE DON'T NEED NO STINKING GADGETS" we've got the HOLY Handgrinade !!

    SORRY, just couldn't resist.
    " Americans will never need the 2nd Amendment, until the government tries to take it away."

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    Member Stogey's Avatar
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    Default Therin lies...

    Quote Originally Posted by Rick P View Post

    ... give lazy hunters who have no more dedication to the hunting lifestyle than a arm chair quarter back the false impression they have the skills to call themselves hunters.
    ...to many Nugent wannabes running off to the sportsman's warehouse and skipping all the training and dedication needed to be proficient with there weapons.
    ...fast cut, high fence, out doors show ethics with them!
    ... "Lost 3 deer so far this year, I think I gut shot them"
    ... tolerance of sport killers is!
    ... every year causing needless suffering and further embarrassment.
    ... wanton waste, fudging the regs, folks who can't hit the broad side of a barn, drunken foolishness
    Hope you don't mind that I selected a few points from your post...

    In essence, from your post, the problem is not the gadgets, it isn't Nuge - it's the few.

    As with SO many things in our lives, one IDIOT can and does screw up the good of the many.

    I believe the gadgets in my pocket allow me to enjoy my hunt more.

    Navigation: Give me a compass and I know, without a doubt that I can start at a place, walk/hike/hunt and end up at my starting point (ie truck, camp, etc.). Add a topo map and I will know where I am during the walkabout.
    However, the GPS gives me a toy to goof around with while walking around - usually while just sitting.

    Ranging: Up to 30 yards, I can do pretty good at guestimating my yardage. Until you put me in the tundra. I don't live close to tundra, when should I practice my range estimation? Too many variables can mess with my range estimation - I spend my efforts on shooting. I can shoot at known distances all year long in my backyard. I estimate ranges when I get to go on a 3d course or something, then check it with my range finder.

    Release, sights? I won't shoot without them. Adds an advantage FOR ME to ensure consistent arrow placement.

    As much I would like some of it different; I do spend 40 hours a week at a job. I do spend quality time with my son. I do things around the house for me, my wife, my dog, my son, etc. I do get out and stomp around the woods without a bow, rifle etc. My practice time is limited to 30 minutes or so, every few days. Until I get close to an archery season... then I reprioritize the honey do list.

    That's me. I'm sure other hunters have similar stories, or maybe there are those fortunate enough to spend all their waking hours in pursuit of their hobbies.

    I would LOVE to see the guy that shot a moose in the haunch a few years ago come forward, own up - explain why the moose was shot poorly, not recovered, nor reported.
    I would LOVE it if F&G had the resources to prosecute those that violate the BOG rules/laws, etc.

    Every sport and hobby has those without the skills, ethics or honor to do the right thing - especially when no one is looking. Our choice happens to include the ending of a life, and tends to be very public when it is not done in a humane way.

  9. #9
    Member Rick P's Avatar
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    This one was ment for Doug.

    Agreed I do think it is ridiculus to use a range finder for distances between 0-30 yards and if one is a "essential tool" for a particular hunter I would encourage him/her to put in some more range time.

    I have no intention of openly welcoming everyone into hunting. Fact is just like I will never be in the NBA not everyone can or should hunt. Am I an elitist? You bet! We are talking about an activity that ends with a living being loosing it's life. If you can't make a humane kill then get the hell out of the woods till you can! I hurt your feelings, well tough, the traditions of hunting, the prevention of needless suffering and preservation of the hunting lifestyle are more important than your, my or anyone's feelings.

    Doug the quote about loosing gut shot deer.....it came from a trad only sight and I never said the trad community was free of yahoo's. Hunting in general has way to many of them across the board, do in large part to society as a wholes degenerated morals.

    I don't care if Mr. Nuggent hunts with a self bow and flint, he, his attitude and that of many of his fans have done more to hurt hunting than anyone since arch duke Franz Ferdinand! You explain to me how screaming at a teen holding a chicken "Kill it! You got to kill it!" is helpful or honorable. Or what fast cut editing and rock sound tracks have to do with the hunting experience. Thank the goddess I no longer get TV!
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    Member Rick P's Avatar
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    Stogey

    You got it with a couple of exceptions, never thought of the slope by the way your right hard to judge distance up there.

    OK my exceptions
    1) Mr Nuggent. Having hunted and been a musician in Michigan I have met Mr. Nuggent more than once.....I have several problems with him in particular but have already covered the hunting related ones.

    2) "the few" they have become the many and we let them! It's allot worse in the lower BTW but getting bad here to.

    I also most confess I'm not entirely guilt free here. I made it possible for a "friend" to get a hunting rifle, problem is his outdoor ethics are horrible!
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    Member Rick P's Avatar
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    "Thou shalt count three, and having reached the third number though shalt hurl the holly hand grenade at thine enemy and he will be blown to bits having been found naughty in the eyes of god"
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    Member Rick P's Avatar
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    This has been a great debate and lots of fun! I have to go be a father now, hopefully you guys found this as helpful and thought provoking as I did. See ya.

    PS you guys even changed my mind on range finders, I will admit there are situations were they are useful. But I still wont be running out to buy one.
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  13. #13
    Member Vince's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rick P View Post
    This one was ment for Doug.

    Agreed I do think it is ridiculus to use a range finder for distances between 0-30 yards and if one is a "essential tool" for a particular hunter I would encourage him/her to put in some more range time.

    I have no intention of openly welcoming everyone into hunting. Fact is just like I will never be in the NBA not everyone can or should hunt. Am I an elitist? You bet! We are talking about an activity that ends with a living being loosing it's life. If you can't make a humane kill then get the hell out of the woods till you can! I hurt your feelings, well tough, the traditions of hunting, the prevention of needless suffering and preservation of the hunting lifestyle are more important than your, my or anyone's feelings.

    Doug the quote about loosing gut shot deer.....it came from a trad only sight and I never said the trad community was free of yahoo's. Hunting in general has way to many of them across the board, do in large part to society as a wholes degenerated morals.

    I don't care if Mr. Nuggent hunts with a self bow and flint, he, his attitude and that of many of his fans have done more to hurt hunting than anyone since arch duke Franz Ferdinand! You explain to me how screaming at a teen holding a chicken "Kill it! You got to kill it!" is helpful or honorable. Or what fast cut editing and rock sound tracks have to do with the hunting experience. Thank the goddess I no longer get TV!
    Rick I agree with a lot of your sentiment here. though i do hunt with bow and firearm... i Love bow hunting. but when i am hunting it is for one purpose. and thats to put meat on the table...period. coming down to doing with out? out comes the gun... needless to say.. I have only shot one moose with a bow..

    I wish you would spend more time in those arguments on caliber and choice of weapon... cause the fact is... to many people don't have a clue....
    "If you are on a continuous search to be offended, you will always find what you are looking for; even when it isn't there."

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  14. #14
    Member Rick P's Avatar
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    Vince

    If I had a really bad bow year I to would switch to a rifle if it were a mater of feeding the family. At times in the past it has been for me and mine, thankfully I have the luxury of being able to do without a harvest now.


    Unfortunately it is difficult to express things clearly on the Internet some times. I just wanted to make sure everyone understands I have no problem with Doug or his ethics. My last post seemed vague on that point.
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