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Thread: Keep Wildlife Wild?

  1. #1

    Default Keep Wildlife Wild?

    It occured to me today that some of the recent debate on this forum boils down to one question: Do wild animals deserve a sense of respect that we (generaly) don't afford the average cow/pig/chicken?

    The canned hunt debate tends to take on so many meanings to so many different people... meat vs trophy, fair chase vs guarantee's, personal property rights vs public lands, lazy hunts vs real world, etc. the list could continue. But the one question that remains to be asked is should traditionaly wild species be raised for profit? Or is the raising of wildlife, or habitat creation on private land for the sole purpose of atracting wildlife for profit wrong or right? And please spare us all the lectures about how all amimals were once domesticated... I'm curious as to what you all have to say.

  2. #2

    Default

    Even a pen raised Ringnecked Pheasant cannot be domesticated. Nor can a hunter.
    "96% of all Internet Quotes are suspect and the remaining 4% are fiction."
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    Member ak_powder_monkey's Avatar
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    "you can't let nature just run wild!"
    I choose to fly fish, not because its easy, but because its hard.

  4. #4

    Default private game?

    My question it this. If all the wild game once belonged to the public and it is (was) illegal for a private individual to possess state controlled wildlife (public), then how in the world did so much of it end up in private game farms and ranches under private control? It seems like the first animals had to be illegally captured then possessed and used for breeding stock to create the mess we now have with canned hunts and private ranch hunts utilizing public animals. Of course, I'm just talking about American animals. Fish & Game personel I've talked to doesn't seem to have "much" of an answer either.
    If you like getting kicked by a mule...then you'll "love" shooting my .458.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ak_powder_monkey View Post
    "you can't let nature just run wild!"
    how would you like to be a monkey and live the rest of your life behind bars .

    I would vote in favor of releasing you and putting you back in your native country .

    No more zoo's , no more fences

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    Hmmmmmm....lemme think...

    "Live Free or Die" comes to mind......

    "The hungriest Wolf Laughs at the Best fed Dog."

    Sombody said that, once.....

  7. #7

    Default It's not that

    all animals once were domesticated, it's that all men once were wild and we can't f***ing forget it, not if we value freedom. Besides, we're just crying into the wind. It's been done a long time, as soon as you turn country into hunting units. Still, a cup of coffee around a fire, smoke smell everywhere, crummy feeling eyes and achy body needing a mile or two to loosen up, just perfect.

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    Thumbs down its not philosophical , its biological

    All those are good philosophical arguments, but the better one is biological: wildlife ranching has been shown to be a very much a bad thing for the wild animals and their hunters.

    Big game that are fed act differently due to being fed - often they gather at the same place to eat every day - wouldn't much happen in the wild - and get a disease or problem that only happens when you mix this and that, with that being big game droppings in such over-quantity that it would basically otherwise never occur if they'd behaved more naturally.

    Or the deer version of mad cow disease: chronic wasting disease. It is spreading across the Western 48 states faster than those tracking it thought possible. I read 4 years ago how a few newbie F&G boys and their supervisor headed out to shoot a few doe mule deer in an area well overpopulated. They teach the newbies shooting, field dressing, etc... (many have never field dressed anything other than a bird or gator) and donate the meat. Though hundreds of miles from the closest outbreak of this disease, two of the does those newbies shot that day had the disease. And the only way it travels is from animal to animal. My point is that ranches almost always further encourage these different behaviors that are bad and that I've never seen or heard of a ranch's fence that is guaranteed not to allow wild and ranched game to physically interact; those fences break.

    (google it yourself or start here: http://www.mad-cow.org/ )

    Its a bad idea to ranch big game for every last person, except big game ranchers.

    And yes, that is how I feel about that!

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    Quote Originally Posted by need2leave View Post
    Do wild animals deserve a sense of respect that we (generaly) don't afford the average cow/pig/chicken?
    Yes 3456789

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maydog View Post
    .....If all the wild game once belonged to the public and it is (was) illegal for a private individual to possess state controlled wildlife (public), then how in the world did so much of it end up in private game farms and ranches under private control? It seems like the first animals had to be illegally captured then possessed and used for breeding stock to create the mess we now have with canned hunts and private ranch hunts utilizing public animals.....
    Even in Alaska (one of the most tightly regulated places on Earth with regard to the possession of wild animals), even raptors (owls, hawks, falcons, etc) are held privately and legally.

    Most of the more popular game ranched species are non-native, and it is all on private lands.

    Of the native animals ranched, bison is by far the most prevalent, and that's because they're now so rare in the wild.

    Supply and demand..............

  11. #11

    Wink

    Quote Originally Posted by Maydog View Post
    My question it this. If all the wild game once belonged to the public and it is (was) illegal for a private individual to possess state controlled wildlife (public), then how in the world did so much of it end up in private game farms and ranches under private control? It seems like the first animals had to be illegally captured then possessed and used for breeding stock to create the mess we now have with canned hunts and private ranch hunts utilizing public animals. Of course, I'm just talking about American animals. Fish & Game personel I've talked to doesn't seem to have "much" of an answer either.
    Apparently you haven't spoken with the right person. ADF&G knows how at least one of the Bison Ranch's in Delta Junction got their herd started. It is common knowledge around the area and nothing was done about it. No proof they said. Uh huh, like they don't know all about DNA testing? They just aren't willing to do anything about it. But....they do know.
    "96% of all Internet Quotes are suspect and the remaining 4% are fiction."
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    Default Imports

    Akres: Yes, I can post again since this is a new thread.

    I would have to disagree with you about your interesting choice of the pheasant. They can, in fact, be domesticated - just like any other animal (including moose). It just takes LOTS of time.

    I say your choice is interesting because the ringneck was imported in the 1850s solely to provide hunting "sport" for the well-to-do. In that respect they are no different from all the other exotics that have been imported (including elk & bison in Alaska). Just the time frame is different.

    As to the general question - NO, we can't and haven't just let wild animals be wild since we humans started using our brains. No matter where you hunt or why you hunt, your life is having an impact on the species you interact with. The how & why is incidental - your interaction is definite.

    The only way to truely let wild animals be wild (IMO) would be to go back to survival without tools or fire. I doubt that will happen anytime soon.

  13. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil View Post
    Akres: Yes, I can post again since this is a new thread.

    I would have to disagree with you about your interesting choice of the pheasant. They can, in fact, be domesticated - just like any other animal (including moose). It just takes LOTS of time.

    I say your choice is interesting because the ringneck was imported in the 1850s solely to provide hunting "sport" for the well-to-do. In that respect they are no different from all the other exotics that have been imported (including elk & bison in Alaska). Just the time frame is different.

    As to the general question - NO, we can't and haven't just let wild animals be wild since we humans started using our brains. No matter where you hunt or why you hunt, your life is having an impact on the species you interact with. The how & why is incidental - your interaction is definite.

    The only way to truely let wild animals be wild (IMO) would be to go back to survival without tools or fire. I doubt that will happen anytime soon.
    Can Ringnecks, Moose, Deer, Elk and Bison really be domesticated? I think not. I know they can be farmed and ranched, we have all seen that. But you let any one of the species listed get out of their pens and they will "go back to survival without tools or fire". To me, there inlies the difference. I have personally raised Ringnecks for years and even hand fed chicks, once in awhile one would get out of the cage, only to never be seen again. I suspect other wild game animals and birds are the same. I have also conditioned many wild birds, like grouse to come to feeders and such, to the point that they will eat out my hand. They seem to be less wary than some, but I would not suggest they are domesticated, just conditioned.
    "96% of all Internet Quotes are suspect and the remaining 4% are fiction."
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    Member Phil's Avatar
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    Default First Step

    Conditioning is the first step to domestication. You just haven't raised enough generations and selected for the proper traits. I certainly agree that without selection of certain genes, domestication is not possible.

    For some consideration - How about the "reindeer" on Kodiak? They do not migrate like other caribou yet they are really domesticated caribou. Or, how about our pet dogs? My opinion (not fact) is that, given enough time, any species can be domesticated.

    BTW, I'm opposed to the intentional domestication of wild animals (such as Texas whitetails). I'm firmly entrenched in the "North American Model of Conservation" as described by Shawn Mahoney.

    It's just that there are "many shades of gray" involved in wildlife - especially with our involvement in wildlife populations and their stability.
    Last edited by Phil; 12-20-2008 at 12:06. Reason: grammar

  15. #15

    Talking I hear ya

    Quote Originally Posted by Akres View Post
    Apparently you haven't spoken with the right person. ADF&G knows how at least one of the Bison Ranch's in Delta Junction got their herd started. It is common knowledge around the area and nothing was done about it. No proof they said. Uh huh, like they don't know all about DNA testing? They just aren't willing to do anything about it. But....they do know.
    Akres: You're right. I haven't spoken to the right person and like I said, I haven't received "much" of answer. Yep, they know how these ranches got their start, but by the time there started to be static, they probably could see that it was too late to get into this fight, especially when a lot of our elected legislature our ranchers themselves. The ranchers had wild elk, supposedly bought others, then told the F&G: You sort 'em out, so we have too little, too late. I'm not exactly sure, but I think Montana and Wyoming saw this coming and put a halt to it right away.
    If you like getting kicked by a mule...then you'll "love" shooting my .458.

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    Default

    I'm trying to catch up.
    There are game ranches in Alaska with Bison and Elk??
    What else?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maydog View Post
    I'm not exactly sure, but I think Montana and Wyoming saw this coming and put a halt to it right away.
    Montana outlawed game ranches in the late 90s. I don't know if it's still that way.

  18. #18

    Default Phunny Pheasants

    [QUOTE=Akres;393270]I have personally raised Ringnecks for years and even hand fed chicks, once in awhile one would get out of the cage, only to never be seen again. QUOTE]

    My family has a pheasant hunting operation in SD. They raised pheasants for years. We'd put roosters out for the daily hunt and by the end of the day there would be "survivors" back at the pen waiting to get back in. We also had a rooster that would ride on the tractor with my father in law. Domesticated? I don't know...but not so wild either.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Headhunter View Post
    I'm trying to catch up.
    There are game ranches in Alaska with Bison and Elk??
    What else?
    Correct me if I'm wrong but the Bison heard in Delta is not native to Alaska, I do no tknow if they are fenced.

    There are also Elk in Fairbanks, http://www.mistymountainelkhunts.com/
    We do not go to the green woods and crystal waters to rough it, we go to smooth it. We get it rough enough at home; in towns and cities; in shops, offices, stores, banks anywhere that we may be placed

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    Member Phil's Avatar
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    Default Alaska Bison

    I think Alaska originally had native bison. They were Woods Bison if I'm not mis-informed. The current bison in Alaska (both Delta and Kodiak) are Plains Bison. In that respect, they are not native. The bison on Kodiak are supposed to be contained by fences but I have seen them on public land.

    The island of Kodiak is populated with several species that were not native to the island including the reindeer which the AKDG & F list in the regs as caribou. SCI recognizes them as reindeer.

    I have been told (hearsay) that both Dall Sheep and moose were introduced to Kodiak but didn't survive. That is definitely 2nd hand information and not from any official source.

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