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Thread: Tier II question

  1. #1

    Default Tier II question

    Anyone know if any Tier II hunt has ever gone back to a regular (sport,draw,or registered) hunt? I've been looking and I can't find any thing on ADFG site.
    Chuck

  2. #2
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    Musk ox on the Northern Seward Pennensula went from Tier 2 to "General(?) Season"....

    Is that an answer?

    ~LOL!~

  3. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by strangerinastrangeland View Post
    Musk ox on the Northern Seward Pennensula went from Tier 2 to "General(?) Season"....

    Is that an answer?

    ~LOL!~
    Yep. Anyone else?
    Chuck

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    Member martentrapper's Avatar
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    Actually, Sew Pen Ox didn't go "back". They are an introduced species and started tier II when there were enough to hunt. Their pop. has grown and are now a "tier I" registration hunt open to any resident. Drawing permits are available to non res.
    You sure seem to have a beef with tier II hiline. I would suggest you speak to an F&G bio and learn more about how a species goes into or out of Tier II. Nobody likes Tier II, including the BoG and F&G. But sometimes it's necessary.
    I can't help being a lazy, dumb, weekend warrior.......I have a JOB!
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  5. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by martentrapper View Post
    Actually, Sew Pen Ox didn't go "back". They are an introduced species and started tier II when there were enough to hunt. Their pop. has grown and are now a "tier I" registration hunt open to any resident. Drawing permits are available to non res.
    You sure seem to have a beef with tier II hiline. I would suggest you speak to an F&G bio and learn more about how a species goes into or out of Tier II. Nobody likes Tier II, including the BoG and F&G. But sometimes it's necessary.
    It's not so much Tier II it is the way the points are awarded and the fact Tier II issues can only come to the BOG every 4 years. And believe me I have been to just about everyone from ADFG to the legislature to the BOG. I also have just about every court case that deals with subsistence down loaded in my computer along with statutes and administrative codes. I missed getting a proposal last year something that won't happen in 2012. The whole point of the question was to gather information for the 2012 BOG cycle so I will have as much ammo as possible.

    Thanks for the info on the musk ox that is the kind of stuff I'm am looking for.
    Chuck

  6. #6

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    Your area is to get a Tier I Moose hunt for the coming year. It will have antler restrictions and a relatively short duration. There will continue to be a Tier II Moose hunt for your area as well. The equation of how and when to establish a Tier II hunt in a given area is written, but the BOG also has the emotional outcry's of local on their plate to deal with. And with the new guy on the playing field, I don't expect to see hunts reversed from Tier II, but quite the contrary, I expect they will increase.
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    Member martentrapper's Avatar
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    Looks like we need a tier II primer. BoG members don't really determine tier II.
    F&G gathers data and presents it to the board. AC and other groups, like WACH working group also contribute their input. From all this info, the BoG determines Amount Necessary for Subsistence(ANS).
    Then, F&G does surveys and pop estimates and determines Allowable Harvest(AH). If the AH is above the ANS, we have general season hunt.
    If AH is at or near ANS, we get Tier I reg. hunts.
    If AH is below ANS, we get Tier II.
    So the only real part the BoG plays in Tier II is setting the ANS. The BoG only sets, or revises, that figure after input by F&G and other groups. I believe that anyone can propose a change to ANS figures during the normal BoG cycle.

    More variables: F&G sets Allowable Harvest based on a certain harvest rate. Like what percent of the population can be harvested without lowering the overall population. I think harvest rate can also be altered by proposals to the BoG, tho you would need good evidence to support the proposal.

    So if any of you want to change a Tier II hunt, you need to go after the ANS figure, the harvest rate, or just sit back and hope the pop. increases.
    I can't help being a lazy, dumb, weekend warrior.......I have a JOB!
    I have less friends now!!

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by martentrapper View Post
    Looks like we need a tier II primer. BoG members don't really determine tier II.
    F&G gathers data and presents it to the board. AC and other groups, like WACH working group also contribute their input. From all this info, the BoG determines Amount Necessary for Subsistence(ANS).
    Then, F&G does surveys and pop estimates and determines Allowable Harvest(AH). If the AH is above the ANS, we have general season hunt.
    If AH is at or near ANS, we get Tier I reg. hunts.
    If AH is below ANS, we get Tier II.
    So the only real part the BoG plays in Tier II is setting the ANS. The BoG only sets, or revises, that figure after input by F&G and other groups. I believe that anyone can propose a change to ANS figures during the normal BoG cycle.

    More variables: F&G sets Allowable Harvest based on a certain harvest rate. Like what percent of the population can be harvested without lowering the overall population. I think harvest rate can also be altered by proposals to the BoG, tho you would need good evidence to support the proposal.

    So if any of you want to change a Tier II hunt, you need to go after the ANS figure, the harvest rate, or just sit back and hope the pop. increases.
    Mt,
    Good overview.
    And...I would expand on the ANS figure to state: What I have watched happen, it is based on the BOG members individual perception, emotional speeches by locals wanting it all to themselves and by the number of applicants that apply for the hunts.

    I honestly don't think anyone will be successful in driving the ANS figure down in any area. Too many newbie hunters wanting some action, too many locals wanting to keep it to themselves and and ever increasing number of applicants. As for the BOG members individual perceptions, well the new appointment to the BOG speaks to that in volumes.

    The best one can hope for, is a game population increase. Given the number of surveys the Dept of F&G does, and the frequency of them, I suggest we not hold our breath.

    Rep point added for your post.
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  9. #9
    Mark
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    Quote Originally Posted by Akres View Post
    ......I would expand on the ANS figure to state: What I have watched happen, it is based on the BOG members individual perception, emotional speeches by locals wanting it all to themselves and by the number of applicants that apply for the hunts.....
    Another problem with Tier II is the non-locals using opposite emotional pleas to the BOG in opposition to the locals wanting it all to themselves. A case in point would be the "motorhomes and fleets of wheelers" arguments used to attempt to drive income into the process.

    The whole thing stinks.

    ....I honestly don't think anyone will be successful in driving the ANS figure down in any area. Too many newbie hunters wanting some action, too many locals wanting to keep it to themselves and and ever increasing number of applicants. As for the BOG members individual perceptions, well the new appointment to the BOG speaks to that in volumes.

    The best one can hope for, is a game population increase.......
    While that is the best we can all hope for, any dream that such a game population increase would last or would be an end to the morass is to reveal one's unfamiliarity with natural fluctuations in game populations and basic human nature.

    Even if there were a million caribou in the Nelchina herd, there would be allocation battles over who should be able to harvest more, who should harvest less, why increased harvests would be "unethical", no non-residents should qualify, how harvests should take place, where harvests should and should not take place, how far away from a road you can shoot, whether or not you should harvest the hide, liver, kidneys, head, etc, which outdoors vehicles should and should not be used, habitat destruction, ethics, access, and on and on and on and on and on and on into infinitum.

  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark View Post
    Another problem with Tier II is the non-locals using opposite emotional pleas to the BOG in opposition to the locals wanting it all to themselves. A case in point would be the "motorhomes and fleets of wheelers" arguments used to attempt to drive income into the process.

    The whole thing stinks.



    While that is the best we can all hope for, any dream that such a game population increase would last or would be an end to the morass is to reveal one's unfamiliarity with natural fluctuations in game populations and basic human nature.

    Even if there were a million caribou in the Nelchina herd, there would be allocation battles over who should be able to harvest more, who should harvest less, why increased harvests would be "unethical", no non-residents should qualify, how harvests should take place, where harvests should and should not take place, how far away from a road you can shoot, whether or not you should harvest the hide, liver, kidneys, head, etc, which outdoors vehicles should and should not be used, habitat destruction, ethics, access, and on and on and on and on and on and on into infinitum.
    Agree!. The Tiering System is doing exactly as it was designed to do. It is One of the most clever sociaological experiements the Thinkers of our society have come up with to date.
    "96% of all Internet Quotes are suspect and the remaining 4% are fiction."
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  11. #11
    Member Vince's Avatar
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    could you imagine what would happen to that herd if a registration or open hunt ever happened to it? it is bar far the easiest herd to hunt here in the state. with nearly unlimited access to it on all sides...


    I may not like how the Tier II works and is run... but i would hate to see it go to ANYTHING other then a draw or the tier II....
    "If you are on a continuous search to be offended, you will always find what you are looking for; even when it isn't there."

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  12. #12
    Mark
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vince View Post
    could you imagine what would happen to that herd if a registration or open hunt ever happened to it? it is bar far the easiest herd to hunt here in the state. with nearly unlimited access to it on all sides...


    I may not like how the Tier II works and is run... but i would hate to see it go to ANYTHING other then a draw or the tier II....
    It can't be an open hunt, and unless populations go way up, it can't be registration.

    But it can sure be a drawing hunt. I remember when it was. I hunted it as a draw. It worked just fine.

    And it's fair to all. And "locals" still get federal subsistence permits.

    Again, that is written by one who gets Tier II permits every time the number of permits issued hits or goes over 3,000.

    But it's too late. It's a done deal. The state Supreme Court has ruled.

    Tier II is a way of life now.

    That's the destiny of a society at war with itself.

  13. #13
    Member Vince's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark View Post
    It can't be an open hunt, and unless populations go way up, it can't be registration.
    mark that is the understatement of the year there on this herd.. and i hear ya.. every one is pissing a fit they don't get to hunt or qualify for this herd.. the issue around it really is it does not really have the room to accommodate a 40 mile or steece slaughter crowd... as it is now there are more taken off the nelchina then the 40 mile or white mt herd annually. however they have some what limited access to those areas.. in a good year Nelchina could be wiped out the first opening day. before any one was able to "record" their harvest. and have an order issued.

    I really don't have an issue with Tier hunts... they are set up for resident hunts and thats good. a non res does not qualify for these hunts as don't guides. the method of criteria for the hunt as subsistence is whats messed it up. the locations getting the hunts are non substances areas.

    there does need to be a better way of distributing this hunt.. opening it up to draw will open it up to non res. and that will start another battle. new res under the current plan will never qualify. heck i am 40. been here over 40 live in a substance area eat 90% wild game in the household. and no longer qualify

    but over the years i have stopped putting in for it. i see the battle is between have and have nots.. and stay out of it..

    but this i will say..

    I will never support opening this herd up to open or registration status...
    "If you are on a continuous search to be offended, you will always find what you are looking for; even when it isn't there."

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  14. #14

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    It could be an open hunt, without jeapordizing the herd strength in numbers.
    If it were to be: Bull only. With Antler Restrictions: Minimum 36" inside measurement and no less than two bez tines.
    Several seasons of Moose Hunts in this manner, are proof postive that it works, and numbers are not compromised.
    SP
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