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Thread: PRB Questions

  1. #1
    Member aknewbie's Avatar
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    Default PRB Questions

    I am going to work up a round ball load for a new muzzleloader, and I was wondering if there are any tips, tricks or things to look for. It will be for a 58 cal and 1:48 twist- I am hoping to use 777 and #11 caps, but I dont know if there is any advantage to using musket caps over a certian charge of powder, different types of material or lubes for patches etc..... Any help would be appretiated.

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    Member homerdave's Avatar
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    i'm no expert by any means, but one thing that will tell you a lot about your load is what the patch looks like after you have fired it. if it is badly scorched you might want to either use a thicker patch or less powder.
    everybody says that different rifles like different loads, even if the guns are essentially the same....
    i am sure brownbear will have some advice for you, i seem to recall he has a .58.
    Alaska Board of Game 2015 tour... "Kicking the can down the road"
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  3. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by aknewbie View Post
    I am going to work up a round ball load for a new muzzleloader, and I was wondering if there are any tips, tricks or things to look for. It will be for a 58 cal and 1:48 twist- I am hoping to use 777 and #11 caps, but I dont know if there is any advantage to using musket caps over a certian charge of powder, different types of material or lubes for patches etc..... Any help would be appretiated.
    It's a bit of a guess without knowing the specific make of your ML in addition to barrel twist, as well as the preferences of an individual rifle.

    A good round # is to go with a .570 ball and a .018 lubed patch. It may seem a little tight when you start it, but a whack on a short starter should do the job. But as a rule of thumb, tighter will always be more accurate.

    I'm betting too, that 3f 777 will be more accurate than 2f 777, but that's pure guesswork based on my very limited experience with 777 in the caliber.

    I'd probably just get some prelubed .018 patches to start out, then experiment with your own after you're familiar with it and RBs in general. I'm using Walmart pillow ticking, washed and dried to thoroughly remove the "sizing" coating they put on it at the factory. Joan's Fabrics sells the same sort of thing. I lube and cut mine at the muzzle or as I load them into loading blocks, rather than cutting and prelubing at home before heading out. Lots of folks do it that way, too.

    I've tinkered with commercial lubes of all sorts, with the best probably being Hoppes black powder solvent (and not the cleaner you're used to using in your CF rifles). Just squirt a little onto the patch, and it both lubes and keeps the bore from fouling. Next in line is either Wonderlube or Nature Lube.

    But I've had the most fun making my own lubes. Right now I've settled on 3 parts rendered deer tallow to one part olive oil for summer use and 2 parts tallow to one part olive oil for winter use. In real cold weather I might even go to 1:1. Almost any other fat or grease will work too, including Crisco or plain olive oil. So will plain old spit.

    I've got two 58's. One is a custom barreled TC with a 1:48 twist. It likes the .570's and .018 patches just fine, but for simplicity I use the same balls and patches I use in my second 58.

    That one is a GRRW Hawken with a bore that's "choked" a little tighter at the muzzle. I can't even get .570 balls started with no patch. Therefore I'm casting my own .562 balls. It's probably the most accurate ML I've seen or shot due to that choked bore.

    As for loads in your gun, I'm betting 50-60 grains will be a nice mild target load. For hunting I'd run it up to a minimum of around 80 grains for deer and probably 100 grains for larger. You can go higher than that by quite a bit, but accuracy depends on the individual rifle. If you start going over 100 grains, I'd probably switch to 2f. Remeber too, that those #'s are for the real black powder I'm using, so you might want to cut them about 10% due to the higher pressures of 777.

    My TC gets 80 grains for deer and 100 of 3f for bigger stuff, mostly because it's got a short barrel and it gets really loud and recoil goes up fast with more powder. Again due to that short barrel, it gets REALLY loud with big charges of 2f.

    My GRRW 58 has a 36" barrel, and it really seems to like 100 grains of 3f for general use and 120-140 grains of 2f for bigger game. Due to the extra weight (12 pounds) and barrel length, neither noise or recoil are too bad with the bigger charges, though sometimes I'd like to have a gun bearer to lug the thing uphill.

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    Pre-lubes or pillow ticking lubed with :

    "Stumpy's Moose Milk

    A general purpose blackpowder solvent and liquid patch lube. Shake well before using

    Castor Oil 3 oz.
    Murphy's Oil Soap 1 oz.
    Witch Hazel 4 oz.
    Isopropyl Alcohol (91%) 8 oz.
    Water (non-chlorinated) 16 oz.

    I dip my patching in this twice and let it dry between. Makes a semi-dry patch material that's easy to carry & use. If you don't mind carrying a little bottle it's a GREAT liquid lube as is."

    I would also buy some .575 balls, I like them tight.

    #11, RWS cap are the hottest, CCi Mags next, no need for musket caps.

    Not a big fan of 777, I like the Goex, it always goes BANG.

    Someday, I will have a .58, always wanted a large small bore.

    Good Shooting,
    Bruce






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    Member rimfirematt's Avatar
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    777 does have a reputation of hard starting. You might want to think about musket cap ignition.

    Its not a big deal to switch over. 5 dollar nipple and your done.

    I also like musket caps cause they are bigger and easier to mess with when you got cold hands.

    I have a T/C big boar in .58. Its a 1:48 twist I load a .570 hornady ball and .010 patch in my gun behind 100 grains of 2F black for my hunting load. I probably could upsize my patch but again I dont like to fight things when Im hunting. And close inspection of my patches show that Im getting a good seal.

    I like the Hoppes black powder solvent/lube mixed with windshield washer fluid in a 50/50 mix for a patch lube. Its easy.

  6. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by rimfirematt View Post
    777 does have a reputation of hard starting. You might want to think about musket cap ignition.

    Its not a big deal to switch over. 5 dollar nipple and your done.

    I also like musket caps cause they are bigger and easier to mess with when you got cold hands.

    I have a T/C big boar in .58. Its a 1:48 twist I load a .570 hornady ball and .010 patch in my gun behind 100 grains of 2F black for my hunting load. I probably could upsize my patch but again I dont like to fight things when Im hunting. And close inspection of my patches show that Im getting a good seal.

    I like the Hoppes black powder solvent/lube mixed with windshield washer fluid in a 50/50 mix for a patch lube. Its easy.
    Hey aknewbie,

    I'll tack on some more info to Matt's good points. I got my short 58 from a guy who was still sorting between Pyro and 777, and he gave up on #11 before trying CCI #11 magnum caps, switching instead to musket caps. I tried it with #11 mags, and they worked at least as well as musket caps. But here's the deal:

    I was still getting misfires after 3 to 6 shots because the barrel has a drum bolster rather than a patent breech. I switched to real black powder, and have never had a misfire since, and we're talking as many as 30 shots between barrel swabbings. I switched from #11 mags back to standard #11's and still didnt' have any misfires.

    If your new rifle has a drum bolster (CVA, eg), you're going to be happiest with real black, which you can get at GNG in Anchorage. It's sure-fire, and actually easier for me to clean up after than Pyro.

  7. #7
    Member aknewbie's Avatar
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    Default same gun.....

    Quote Originally Posted by rimfirematt View Post
    777 does have a reputation of hard starting. You might want to think about musket cap ignition.

    Its not a big deal to switch over. 5 dollar nipple and your done.

    I also like musket caps cause they are bigger and easier to mess with when you got cold hands.

    I have a T/C big boar in .58. Its a 1:48 twist I load a .570 hornady ball and .010 patch in my gun behind 100 grains of 2F black for my hunting load. I probably could upsize my patch but again I dont like to fight things when Im hunting. And close inspection of my patches show that Im getting a good seal.

    I like the Hoppes black powder solvent/lube mixed with windshield washer fluid in a 50/50 mix for a patch lube. Its easy.

    Matt & Bear,
    The gun is a T/C Big Boar. I have been looking for one for quite some time and I have found one that is in REALLY good shape! We will see if it goes through- I am trying to get a head start if I get it cause I dont have a lot of time before I deploy again. I figured I'd start picking up some things ahead of time cause .58 isnt in any stores very often- I already have a few different conicals I'm gonna try- but I want to work up a good RB load first. Just a whole lot more fun to shoot all day without loosening any fillings. I want to try 777 cause it already works real good in all my other guns, makes things simple.

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by aknewbie View Post
    Matt & Bear,
    The gun is a T/C Big Boar. I have been looking for one for quite some time and I have found one that is in REALLY good shape! We will see if it goes through- I am trying to get a head start if I get it cause I dont have a lot of time before I deploy again. I figured I'd start picking up some things ahead of time cause .58 isnt in any stores very often- I already have a few different conicals I'm gonna try- but I want to work up a good RB load first. Just a whole lot more fun to shoot all day without loosening any fillings. I want to try 777 cause it already works real good in all my other guns, makes things simple.
    I doubt you'll have any ignition problems with 777 in the TC. You can loosen fillings with the RBs too, when you get up to the top end of the scale in the Lyman book! Certainly not as much as with conicals and hot loads, but with the high comb on the TC, hot loads will eventually start to smack you up side the head.

    On another note, if the deal falls through:

    My hunting pard gave up on finding a Big Boar. He found a great deal on an older TC Hawken with the 1" barrel rather than the 15/16", then got a 58 caliber replacement barrel from Green River. Dandy, dandy results.

    You're gonna love that rifle if you get it. Best of luck! You'll like it so much however, that you're going to start thinking about a 62 caliber or bigger I bet. No reflection on the 58, but I've noticed that with muzzleloaders, the bigger they get the better I like them.

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    Member rimfirematt's Avatar
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    Good luck getting that big boar! I really like mine! Its a great shooter and not bad to carry neither. Its short length makes it handy to carry through thick brush.

    If I had the percusion nipple that came with mine Id try out 777 for ya just to tell you the results. I got a can of it in the garage that I had for my inlines.

    But like brownbear said, im sure it will be fine.

    Ive had good luck getting the roundballs and conicals from great northern guns. But jags and short starters and patches I get from trackofthewolf.com

    Ahhh I cant wait for black bear season!!!

  10. #10
    Member aknewbie's Avatar
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    Default GMR 58 barrels

    Bear,
    Yeah I had looked into a GMR 58 barrel in a renegade, but the only one they had was a 1:70 twist that was 32" long. Not that there is anything wrong with that, I just want the option to still shoot conicals, and I have never really been a fan of long barrels- kind of a pain to carry in the brush, and that is where I like to hunt. There is just something about getting close that gets my blood pumping!

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    Member rimfirematt's Avatar
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    you memtioned "if the deal goes through" not sure what your situation is but I saw a big boar at gunbroker.com up for bids. It was at 220.00. Might want to bid on that if your other deal falls through

  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by aknewbie View Post
    Bear,
    Yeah I had looked into a GMR 58 barrel in a renegade, but the only one they had was a 1:70 twist that was 32" long. Not that there is anything wrong with that, I just want the option to still shoot conicals, and I have never really been a fan of long barrels- kind of a pain to carry in the brush, and that is where I like to hunt. There is just something about getting close that gets my blood pumping!
    I understand completely. The custom barrel on my TC is 26" and tapered from 1 1/8" to 15/16" at the muzzle and 1:48 twst. That shifts the center of gravity way back between your hands almost like a shotgun. It weighs pretty close to 9 pounds, but handles really fast.

    My GRRW 58 cal has a 36" barrel tapered from 1 1/8" to 1" at the muzzle and 1:70 twist. With an overall weight of 12 pounds, it's also muzzleheavy.

    Guess which one gets carried and used most!!!!


    you memtioned "if the deal goes through" not sure what your situation is but I saw a big boar at gunbroker.com up for bids. It was at 220.00. Might want to bid on that if your other deal falls through
    I'd consider that a good buy at twice the price. If I didn't already have two 58's, I'd be bidding. It's a great caliber, especially up here.

  13. #13
    Member aknewbie's Avatar
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    Default restorationfirearms.com

    Has anyone ever seen this site www.restorationfirearms.com ? I found it a few months ago. The guy that was building these BEAUTIFUL muzzleloaders had passed away and his wife kept the site up because of how proud she was of his work- for good reason. The site is still up so check it out if ya got time- really nice guns done the right way!!!

    BTW I did see that big boar on gun broker and it looks good too! Also, does anyone know if someone makes a drop in 58 barrel for a Lyman Deerstalker? I think that would turn out to be a dandy rifle also.

  14. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by aknewbie View Post
    Has anyone ever seen this site www.restorationfirearms.com ? I found it a few months ago. The guy that was building these BEAUTIFUL muzzleloaders had passed away and his wife kept the site up because of how proud she was of his work- for good reason. The site is still up so check it out if ya got time- really nice guns done the right way!!!

    BTW I did see that big boar on gun broker and it looks good too! Also, does anyone know if someone makes a drop in 58 barrel for a Lyman Deerstalker? I think that would turn out to be a dandy rifle also.
    Yeah, I've seen that site. Really cool stuff!

    No one that I know of makes a drop-in for the Deerstalker. I'd sure have one if they did. The Deerstalker (as well as all other Lyman rifles) has a 15/16" barrel and the minimum anyone will make in a 58 cal is 1". The smaller ones in 58 were available a decade or so ago, but when guys started pushing maximum limits and hiring lawyers when they got a faceful, the companies all backed off. You still see 15/16" barrel for sale used now and then, but none specifically inlet for the Deerstalker.

    BTW- I got my wife a Deerstalker 54 cal last summer, and it's a real shooter. She prefers it to all others because of the combo of weight and balance. Course she won't let me shoot it unless she's there, and I'm yet to hunt with it.

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    Member aknewbie's Avatar
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    Default big boar

    Thanks for the heads up on the big boar on gun broker guys! I should have known this would happen. Here goes....... The one I was trying to buy is from a friend of my dads-NEW IN THE BOX!!!!! He has offered it to me for the second time now, but once it comes time to deliver (agreeing on price) he backs out and will not discuss it any more. I guess I should have known better- just annoying due to the fact he has 2 of them and more money than he knows what to do with. Needless to say him and I wont be speaking much anymore in the future.

  16. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by aknewbie View Post
    Thanks for the heads up on the big boar on gun broker guys! I should have known this would happen. Here goes....... The one I was trying to buy is from a friend of my dads-NEW IN THE BOX!!!!! He has offered it to me for the second time now, but once it comes time to deliver (agreeing on price) he backs out and will not discuss it any more. I guess I should have known better- just annoying due to the fact he has 2 of them and more money than he knows what to do with. Needless to say him and I wont be speaking much anymore in the future.
    I know guys like that, and you've got the best answer. Mostly they just want folks to envy them for something they have and you don't, and never had any intention to sell. Leave em to their lonely misery.

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    Member aknewbie's Avatar
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    Default annoying......

    guys like that are REALLY annoying- He knows that I am militiary supporting my family on a single income, so I dont have a lot of money for such things. It is just a slap in the face, like you said it is HAHA!!!! LOOK WHAT I HAVE AND YOU DONT!!!!! I think that he just doesnt like me cause I have made him look kinda silly on the trap and rifle ranges in the past. I guess old grudges die hard.......

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