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Thread: Sportsment for Fish and Wildlife

  1. #1
    Member fishnngrinn's Avatar
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    Default Sportsment for Fish and Wildlife

    SFW

    I just joined this organization after attending a very informative meeting last night at Loussac Library. There is another meeting Thursday 12/18/08, 7:00 pm to 9:00 pm. I encourage all of you to attend and learn about the vital work that SFW is doing. http://www.sfwsfh.org/

    SFW started a project in Unit 16 by raising money and establishing hunting camps for ordinary hunters such as me. They reasoned that few hunters hunt this area because of limited access and expense. They set up baiting stations for bears and fully equipped camps for hunters. The increased harvest of bears has already resulted in increasing populations of moose. SFW started in Utah, 1993 and they have seen 500% increase in game populations. We need this in AK imho.

    Rick Kinmon will be presenting predator hunting strategies.
    http://www.outdoorsdirectory.com/store/product_info.php?products_id=335

    You will also learn about a ballistic compensating scope manufactured in the Night Force plant. Videos of long distant, one shot kills will be shown. Pretty amazing shots, e.g., a coyote taken in excess of 1000 yards, elk at 700+ yards.


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  2. #2
    Member homerdave's Avatar
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    Thumbs down long range "hunting"

    i am gonna have to say i would be just as "impressed" by a video of a beer can being shot at 1000 yds.... (it would be just as aware that it was being "hunted" )
    as far as SFW, they have been discussed on this forum ad nauseam , back when politics would get heated.
    one thing for sure, they are a boon to guides, outfitters and rich hunters in the states in which they have become established.
    plenty of info on them if you do a forum search...
    Alaska Board of Game 2015 tour... "Kicking the can down the road"
    http://www.alaskabackcountryhunters.org/

  3. #3
    Moderator AKmud's Avatar
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    Default

    I went to Kinmons seminar last year and was pretty disappointed. He pitched it as a "predator hunting seminar", but it ended up being a long video of guides/clients taking other big game and then a major pitch for SWF and some diet pills he peddles. I think the only predator related info we got was him blowing on a couple of his favorite hand calls (and of course he was pushing his new book).

    SWF may be a group worth supporting, but the "seminar" should have been pitched a little differently. I felt like I had been suckered by and Amway salesperson .

    Kinmon is evidently and excellent predator hunter, but he doesn't give up any secrets (or much useable advice for that matter) during his seminars.

    Hopefully he added a little substance for this go around.

    His book was a good, easy read, but again no substance, just a bunch of stories regarding his past adventures.
    AKmud
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  4. #4
    Moderator AKmud's Avatar
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    Default

    Some of the comments from last year - Predator seminar
    AKmud
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    The porcupine is a peacful animal yet God still thought it necessary to give him quills....

  5. #5
    Member Stogey's Avatar
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    Default Uh Oh

    This was discussed quite a bit last year, even some heated viewpoints.

    Did they happen to give up any info on how many bears were taken in the Unit 16 SFW bear harvest?

    I haven't been impressed by them - I think the NRA, SCI, and various critter Forever (Pheasant, Turkey, Trout, Moose, etc.) groups do a better job - or are at least better organized for the average member.

    They have my money from last year, I doubt they'll get anymore.
    Lack of communication, on their part, is my primary complaint.
    They could be doing GREAT things in the world of hunting and wildlife conservation.
    But, they haven't said too much to this member.

  6. #6
    Mark
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    Quote Originally Posted by homerdave View Post
    i am gonna have to say i would be just as "impressed" by a video of a beer can being shot at 1000 yds.... (it would be just as aware that it was being "hunted" )......
    You notify animals that you're hunting and inform them that they're being hunted before doing so?

  7. #7
    Member Oak's Avatar
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    Default

    set up baiting stations for bears and fully equipped camps for hunters. The increased harvest of bears has already resulted in increasing populations of moose.
    Wow, how long have they been running these camps? Is there some survey data where you can show us this increase in the moose population that is directly related to increased bear harvest?

  8. #8
    Member akjeff's Avatar
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    Default Instead of SWF???????

    Oops SFW!

    This is not a challenge just a request for info.

    If not SFW then who? Who is doing, or trying to do, something (anything for that matter) in this state? Lets be very very specific. Nothing is being done about predators and habitat. Why bash the only major organization trying to get something done?
    Last edited by akjeff; 12-18-2008 at 00:38. Reason: typo

  9. #9

    Question

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but I've gotten the impression that SFW is an organization that is using (and needs) the mass hunting population (mostly us Joe 6 pak's) to reach a goal that would enhance wildlife populations that would greatly benefit the wealthy hunters, and if in the meantime, benefits the peasants, so be it?
    If you like getting kicked by a mule...then you'll "love" shooting my .458.

  10. #10
    Member Stogey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by akjeff View Post
    ... If not SFW then who? Who is doing, or trying to do, something (anything for that matter) in this state? ...
    They aren't the ONLY major organization trying to get something done:

    Here's five minutes of Google Searching, I'm sure there are many other orgs:

    Alaska's Local SCI chapter: http://www.aksafariclub.org/
    Most recent headline on their page concerns Wood-Bison in AK.

    ADF&G: http://www.adfg.state.ak.us/
    http://wildlife.alaska.gov/
    Yep, these guys are here to protect the game as written by the laws presented - by the people.

    AWCC: http://awcc.org/home.html
    Most know about Big Game Alaska - it's not just a zoo, they also do conservation research.

    Alaska FNAWS: http://www.wildsheepalaska.org/issues/issues.html
    This group is working four projects to support their take on how to better manage the sheep hunts and populations.

    Alaska Moose Federation: http://www.growmoremoose.org/home.asp
    Small group, appear to be loosely organized

    And yes, SFW will pop-up too. Although the Alaska chapter page hasn't been updated since Feb 08. http://www.sfwalaska.org

    ... Why bash the only major organization trying to get something done? ...
    In my opinion, each organization has it's own agenda, and their own plan towards getting their agenda accomplished.

    Trouble with most organizations is - communication.

    Trouble with most hunters is - organization.

    Trouble with anti-hunters - they are organized communicators.
    I really don't believe that an anti-hunter belief or concept is more popular, but I do believe that the anti-groups are very good at getting funds and using those funds to advertise their view.

    Personally, I wish SFW would sponsor AOD, it would be great if one of their board members were active on these forums, and phenomenal if they would post the Alaska news from SFW here as well.

    They worked hard to get folks involved last year, they setup some bear bait stations in Unit 16 - I'm sure some bears were harvested.
    How many?
    Did we come anywhere near the numbers that ADF&G says are needed to effectively manage the predators in Unit 16?

    Rant off.

  11. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by fishnngrinn View Post
    SFW

    I just joined this organization after attending a very informative meeting last night at Loussac Library. There is another meeting Thursday 12/18/08, 7:00 pm to 9:00 pm. I encourage all of you to attend and learn about the vital work that SFW is doing. http://www.sfwsfh.org/

    SFW started a project in Unit 16 by raising money and establishing hunting camps for ordinary hunters such as me. They reasoned that few hunters hunt this area because of limited access and expense. They set up baiting stations for bears and fully equipped camps for hunters. The increased harvest of bears has already resulted in increasing populations of moose. SFW started in Utah, 1993 and they have seen 500% increase in game populations. We need this in AK imho.

    Rick Kinmon will be presenting predator hunting strategies.
    http://www.outdoorsdirectory.com/store/product_info.php?products_id=335

    You will also learn about a ballistic compensating scope manufactured in the Night Force plant. Videos of long distant, one shot kills will be shown. Pretty amazing shots, e.g., a coyote taken in excess of 1000 yards, elk at 700+ yards.

    Sorry but I don't believe that statement to be true at all. Do you think harvesting black bears in the spring will increase the moose population in the same year? From what I have read in many reports and seen in statistical data, it takes years for ungulates to bounce back in population, not just a few months. Let's see some real data that proves the moose population has increased.

  12. #12

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    I live in 16b I haven't seen an increase in moose, in fact every year I see fewer moose. However I am in favor of predator control I have never seen as many big black bear boars as there are out here. 10 or 12 years ago when ADFG first noticed the moose population falling you could still see a lot of cows with calves, at least a fourth of them twins, through out the winter. Now you hardly see any cows with calves in the winter, I can't remember the last twins I've seen after the snow flys.

    Right now I don't care what SFW's motives are I want moose back as far as I'm concerned let them take all the trophy bears they want.
    Chuck

  13. #13
    Member GreenTea's Avatar
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    I have two big problems with the Alaska chapter of this organization.

    First, their mission statement offers nothing that the Alaska Department of Fish & Game isn't already doing (except they don't hire biologists).

    Second, half of their founding members are disgraced former State Senators: Ralph Seekins, who sought to make it illegal for people to inform on criminal activity by State Senators, and Scott Ogan, who resigned in the face of a recall attempt because he ignored the concerns of his constituents who were opposed to coal bed methane drilling in their back yards.

    I'm putting my money into the organizations that act as true conservationists (Wildlife Forever, Rocky Mtn. Elk Foundation) and make me proud to be a member.

  14. #14
    Mark
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    Quote Originally Posted by AkHunter45 View Post
    Sorry but I don't believe that statement to be true at all. Do you think harvesting black bears in the spring will increase the moose population in the same year?.....
    I do. Each bear killed will reduce predation pressure on moose calves.

    Will that data be collected and established that year?

    I don't see how it could.

  15. #15
    Member akjeff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stogey View Post
    They aren't the ONLY major organization trying to get something done:

    Here's five minutes of Google Searching, I'm sure there are many other orgs:

    Alaska's Local SCI chapter: http://www.aksafariclub.org/
    Most recent headline on their page concerns Wood-Bison in AK.

    ADF&G: http://www.adfg.state.ak.us/
    http://wildlife.alaska.gov/
    Yep, these guys are here to protect the game as written by the laws presented - by the people.

    AWCC: http://awcc.org/home.html
    Most know about Big Game Alaska - it's not just a zoo, they also do conservation research.

    Alaska FNAWS: http://www.wildsheepalaska.org/issues/issues.html
    This group is working four projects to support their take on how to better manage the sheep hunts and populations.

    Alaska Moose Federation: http://www.growmoremoose.org/home.asp
    Small group, appear to be loosely organized

    And yes, SFW will pop-up too. Although the Alaska chapter page hasn't been updated since Feb 08. http://www.sfwalaska.org



    In my opinion, each organization has it's own agenda, and their own plan towards getting their agenda accomplished.

    Trouble with most organizations is - communication.

    Trouble with most hunters is - organization.

    Trouble with anti-hunters - they are organized communicators.
    I really don't believe that an anti-hunter belief or concept is more popular, but I do believe that the anti-groups are very good at getting funds and using those funds to advertise their view.

    Personally, I wish SFW would sponsor AOD, it would be great if one of their board members were active on these forums, and phenomenal if they would post the Alaska news from SFW here as well.

    They worked hard to get folks involved last year, they setup some bear bait stations in Unit 16 - I'm sure some bears were harvested.
    How many?
    Did we come anywhere near the numbers that ADF&G says are needed to effectively manage the predators in Unit 16?

    Rant off.
    I stand corrected. I forgot about the AK Moose Fed. Which I support. I also should not have made a blanket statement like "ONLY" or "something", I was not been very specific.

    In my narrow minded opinion, I believe that predator control is the single most important issue at hand. A very very close second is habitat. Introducing animals is good and has value. Doing research is also useful. Fish and Game (that was a stretch) must enforce the law. Some of the laws run counter to productive game management, like same day airborne for black bear or wolf (not under a control permit). Which make no sense biologically as both species are over abundant.

    Predator control needs to be dealt with head on. It is a political taboo and lots of people and groups do not want to address it. All conservation efforts are of value, but without aggressive predator control we are doomed to continue fighting each other over dwindling game stocks. What benefits one hunter benefits all hunters. And the argument that "SFW only benefits the wealthy", well...the wealthy are able to get the best of what is left now. So that is a mute point. More moose and sheep for everyone.

    Respectfully opinionated

    akjeff

  16. #16
    Member fishnngrinn's Avatar
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    I love AOD, it’s like a dozen or more Paul Harvey’s giving the rest of the story. Thank you all for the rants, info and questions.
    I did not mean to start this thread promoting SFW, I am a poor CHEECHAKO in Alaska, I usually do more research, but I was at work, had limited time and wanted to post the seminar date for those who might be interested. Some of you asked questions and I will try to answer, I am no expert, can only regurgitate some of what I heard at the seminar. I will also herein try to let you know where my heart is.

    Homerdave, I agree with you, beer cans at 1000 yards are more impressive. In the videos they had a 14 yo boy shooting balloons up to 700 yards, I like that. I like shooting small groups in paper. I have shot one black bear and several deer with bow/arrow within 25 yards, on the ground. That takes another kind of skill that is more challenging IMHO. However, I did enjoy long shots on prairie dogs in Montana and wouldn’t at all be opposed to picking off coyotes at long range-would do it if I could.

    AKMud: I think the presentation is still as you describe from last year. I overheard one participant tell Rick that he got to the varmint presentation just in time as they were ready to throw stones. I was initially annoyed, went there for varmint hunting info, got the bums rush on membership drive, nevertheless, I do believe in predator control and that is on their agenda.

    Stogey: the presenters said that lack of hunter organization gave rise to SFW in Utah. They organized and got some political clout, changed some management programs to include predator control. They said that the anti hunting groups eventually left the state. They said that the same antis have numerous offices in Anchorage. I would say that all of the organizations you identified may have communication issues, at least I have not heard from them. I get the NRA magazine because of membership and now I will get the SFW magazine (they said) bc of membership. At least I heard about them on the radio. My dependable source of info is the forum so I agree with you that SFW and others should become sponsors on AOD. Judging from the views expressed on the forum, SFW has a long way to go in bringing hunters together.

    AK Hunter and HiLine-they stated increase in Moose population, did not claim data, simply a subjective impression given. They said that in round numbers a wolf kills a moose per month and they think bears are worse. They were citing some numbers, but when they said black bears a native lady shouted out something about the “white man.” She came looking for a fight. I missed the numbers. Regarding harvest in Unit 16 they cited average annual harvest and last years harvest. I think they said last years harvest was more than 100 above average. They got my interest, I am thinking about participating. One more bear killed may save a bunch of moose calves.

    One spring I witnessed two bears at Long Lake (on the Glenn Hwy) chase a cow and calf onto the beach. The two bears appeared to be working as a team, one chased out onto the beach, the calf bolted back into the woods and the other bear ended the chase there. Seeing is believing.

    They also talked about coyotes decimating the lamb population.
    No discussion of auto/moose collisions J

    I have not hunted big game in AK, but want my sons and grandsons to have the opportunity if they so desire. I will give my support to any group that strives (effectively) to preserve our hunting/fishing traditions. We shall see about SFW.

    Thanks again, I love this forum, have learned a lot from you guys about hunting, fishing, equipment and politics. fishnngrinn out.




    NRA Lifetime Member

  17. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark View Post
    I do. Each bear killed will reduce predation pressure on moose calves.

    Will that data be collected and established that year?

    I don't see how it could.
    If you want to believe the moose population has grown in 6 months then by all means, believe it. I believe you have to get rid of a significant amount of bears for it to make a difference. And I also believe that black bears aren't the only predator preying on moose in unit 16 either so maybe they need to focus some of their efforts on those as well. I'm not saying it hasn't made a difference, i'm saying it's too EARLY for anyone to know how much of a difference it has already made.

  18. #18

    Default I went tonight.

    SFH...IS NOT accountable to SFW membership.

    Akmud's post was close to being spot on.

    The only way SFW is going to work for joe-sixpack is if you guys who send in your 30 bucks hold 'your' SFW board accountable to your interest.

    Soggy made the point...THAT SFW is doing exactly '0' to keep the so called 'membership' informed or involved. There is a reason for that. SFH does NOT want SFW membership to know what SFH is doing.

    SFW is a shill for SFH that is nothing more than an extension of the Alaska Outdoor Coalition and the Alaska Professional Hunters Association Incorporated.

    SFH uses SFW membership numbers to promote the sfH unsponken and 'secret' agenda.

    You guys who are members of SFW had best start understanding how SFW membership is being USED by SFH.

    Tonight it was reported by SFH they raised $70K of outside money ALLEGEDELY to support the 16b program last spring.

    ACCORDING to SFH 140 black bears were taken....yah sure...you betcha!

    Why don't just one of you SFW members ask your 'board' who got the $70K SFH raised by selling our sheep and brown bear tags.

    Try and get an actual accounting for the money...good luck!

    And by the way...raising money outside of Alaska by selling OUR big game tags for sheep and Kodiak Bears at auctions in UTAH and bringing that money back to ALaska goes beyond what people complain about so called "anti-orgs" are doing by raising money outside and sending it up here to affect policy.

    Crap...we are giving these guys [SFH] OUR tags, letting them sell them outside to the highest bidders and then they come back up here and use that money to influence department policy that ends up allocating our resources to the commercial hunting industry.

    Alaskans who think SFW is out to make hunting better for joe-sixpack Alaska resident hunter had better start thinking about what your membership in SFW is actually doing and just how UNACCOUNTABLE SFH is to SFW.

    SFH is using SFW membership to promote what is good for the commercial hunting industry.

    How about just one of you SFW members try and get any kind of response at all out of an SFW board member as to why SFW supported leaving 'sheep' and 'bears' out of the Alaskan Wildlife Assets bill last legislative session.

    SFW is pumping up their membership numbers [using gulliabile non-thinking hunters] through these scam seminars like tonight to support initiatives being managed by SFH which you, as a member of SFW. have NOTHING to say about what legislation SFH is advocating.

    That arm of SFW; known as SFH is advocating and lobbying only for issuse that promote the commercial hunting industry and allocate OUR resources for and to the benefit of the commercial hunting industry.

    Wakeup guys.


  19. #19
    Member homerdave's Avatar
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    Thumbs up very informative, Av.

    It takes a strong wind to blow away the smoke that surrounds SFW/SFH.
    You ask the big question though... where does the money go?
    Alaska Board of Game 2015 tour... "Kicking the can down the road"
    http://www.alaskabackcountryhunters.org/

  20. #20
    Mark
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    Quote Originally Posted by AkHunter45 View Post
    Originally Posted by Mark
    I do. Each bear killed will reduce predation pressure on moose calves.

    Will that data be collected and established that year?

    I don't see how it could.
    If you want to believe the moose population has grown in 6 months then by all means, believe it.....
    Why thank you! I believe I will!

    ....I believe you have to get rid of a significant amount of bears for it to make a difference.....
    A few predators gone makes a small difference. A significant number of predators gone makes a significant difference.

    .....And I also believe that black bears aren't the only predator preying on moose in unit 16 either so maybe they need to focus some of their efforts on those as well.....
    I agree.

    ....I'm not saying it hasn't made a difference, i'm saying it's too EARLY for anyone to know how much of a difference it has already made.
    Again, I agree. There is no way that reliable data on moose population increases from that spring's black bear harvest could have been compiled that fall.

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