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Thread: Hunting Questions

  1. #1
    Member Phil's Avatar
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    Default Hunting Questions

    OK, we all know a canned hunt when we see one. 36 members responded to the thread about a canned Dall Sheep "hunt". Among those were me, 2 moderators, and 33 other members. So now I have some questions for anyone but especially the previous respondents.

    1. What constitutes a "canned hunt"? or, if you prefer - How do you define a "canned hunt"?

    2. Is a canned hunt in Alaska the same as a canned hunt somewhere else? or, if you prefer - All all canned hunts the same?

    3. Is there a difference between a game ranch and a canned hunt? If there is, what are the differences?

    4. Are canned hunts the future of hunting in the US?

    I'm not going to start the answers - I may respond after others have a chance at them.

  2. #2
    Supporting Member Amigo Will's Avatar
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    All about the same but some you have to get out of the Jeep and at times even walk some but you will get your game

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    Perhaps living in Alaska has spoiled me. When I was stationed in VA I worked at a auto shop part time and a few of the guys there were avid hunters. Most of their stories consisted of a "club" hunting in group fashion with trained dogs chasing deer across private property. Not my cup of tea, but it was what they knew.

    Here in Alaska we have thousands of acres to trek across in search of what fuels us, and because of that we know over time that filling the freezer, it takes a bit of work and persistence, to some it only takes a few steps out the back door, and others its a day by boat. Ive done the day long trip up the Koyukuk to bag a dandy bull, I could have stayed closer to home but it was more than that, it was the trip of a lifetime for me.

    1
    I consider a canned hunt a hunt on private land with animals in which to hunt, more so where all the work is taken out of the hunt. catch 22 when considering what types of animals. In this case the conversations were based on a trophy dall sheep, most folks here that bag sheep know its one hell of a job to make it successful, so to see one advertised on craigslist really pisses me off. So ultimately if there's a fence around what your hunting, then I guess it could be considered canned. This question has a lot of what ifs, relaly depend son what your dealing with.

    2
    I'm only aware of a few hunts here in Alaska that offer animals not normally found in other parts, which are the elk hunts up north, perhaps something else I haven't heard about.

    3
    Differences
    I would say theres a huge difference between A) me paying a day fee to hunt on my own on your land, going after birds, deer or whatever and B) paying 11,000$ for a trophy. There's no sport in nailing a trophy behind a fence.

    4
    Are canned hunts the future of the US?

    I would say in away YES. As our grounds expand we have less hunting to be done. Case in point although a whole different topic, the native corps that recently took over a few more acres. We can now A) not hunt there or B) pay a fee. I know several guys form the lower 48 who would kill for a hunt in Alaska due to the restrictions or lack of hunting areas they have access to.
    We do not go to the green woods and crystal waters to rough it, we go to smooth it. We get it rough enough at home; in towns and cities; in shops, offices, stores, banks anywhere that we may be placed

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    Default same question I just asked

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil View Post
    ...1. What constitutes a "canned hunt"? or, if you prefer - How do you define a "canned hunt"? ...
    Same question I asked, I hadn't seen that you started a new thread on this.

    I gave some examples that I have seen and/or done to ask: are each of these or any of these fair chase hunts?

    http://forums.outdoorsdirectory.com/...9&postcount=55

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    Member bushrat's Avatar
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    I define a canned hunt as one in which animals are enclosed by a manmade fence and success is guaranteed. Or one in which there is no fence but success is still guaranteed.

    According to that definition, no matter where the "hunt" takes place, it's still a canned hunt.

    There is a huge difference between a canned hunt and what many game ranches offer. Usually when we discuss this matter it invariably comes down to how large an enclosure is on a game ranch, whether or not animals can "escape" into cover or what have you, and exactly what is "fair chase." For more insight on fair chase, I recommend Jim Posewitz's excellent thoughts:
    http://www.alaskabackcountryhunters....ir%20Chase.htm

    Some game ranches are tens of thousands of acres. Then again, some very large game ranches also offer canned hunts. It is as easy to train deer to come to a feeder on automatic timer as it is to train a dog to salivate at the sound of a dinner bell. Some large game ranches have blinds over manmade watering holes and feeders, and they guarantee success. Some don't guarantee success. Many if not most genetically or otherwise alter whatever the trophy potential is for a given animal, whether it is feeding them antlermax foods or only breeding animals with known favorable trophy qualities. I call this farming/ranching. Those animals are not wild.

    Canned hunts imo will be a larger part of the future of "hunting" in the U.S. if we continue to lose more public lands hunting opportunities. However, some states are trying to ban them, and some states have.

    My own thoughts are in complete agreement with Posewitz, but remember it's only my opinion:
    Hunters have experienced cases where the public has stepped in and put and end to certain hunting seasons and practices. In most cases, these challenges have addressed what is fair chase and what is not. As hunters, we must establish a high ethical standard of fair chase or we risk three things important to our future. One is the leadership in doing what is right for wildlife; the second is the opportunity to hunt; and the third is our self-respect.


  6. #6

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    A canned hunt is when an individual animal is purchased (ie that sheep) and taken to an area to be shot by the buyer. A game ranch is just that, a ranch were game is raised and for a fee you can hunt the ranch. The ranch provides a hunting atmospere. I have been around both the good and the bad. The good being a father and son that have never been hunting going to a ranch and shooting a couple pigs and maybe a exotic sheep. Those guys gain some hunting and shooting skills, great father-son time, then start looking for more hunting opertunities outside of the hunting ranches. I have seen the bad, I was called out to an exotic animal farm (not a hunting ranch) to skin an elk. This was not unusal, they had animals die all the time and they would have their hides tanned or the horn mounted. To my suprise when I arrived this elk was alive and well inside the barn corral. There was I guy there that had bought the elk and was going to shoot it and have it mounted. They guy asked me where he should shoot it!!!! I told him in Wyoming at about 8000ft. He said he was going to shoot it between the eyes. Being a farmer and having butcherd alot of beef and hogs I told him the margin of error in a head on shot between the eyes is very small and a shot behind the ear is much more effective. He declined my advice and took a between the eyes shot. Then sweet, sweet karma kicked in. The 400 inch elk rared up like a stallion and leaped straight up in the air and flip upside down, landing on his rack and shadering it in a million pieces. Believe me when I say you do not want a@@holes like that in the field with you, But I would be more than happy to share a hunting camp with that father-son team that also go to a game ranch once in a while.

  7. #7
    Member Phil's Avatar
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    Default Finished

    It looks like this thread is just about finished. I would recommend that you read bushrat's and gladetop's answers very carefully. They both have some great thoughts.

    My inclination is to consider a canned hunt as one in which a person buys a specific animal or in which the enclosure is quite small (how small depends on the part of the country and the species). Definitely (IMO) buying a specific animal constitutes a canned hunt.

    I suspect (baring a big decrease in human population) that game ranches will play an increasingly large part of the future of hunting.

    BTW, I don't think this topic has been discussed since the "old forums". I well remember those discussions.

    Now (well, on Jan 31) I'm off to Texas to hunt with a friend from college whom I haven't seen in 51 years. We will be on a ranch that does not do commercial hunting, has only a low (4 foot) fence, has exotics than easily clear the fence, but does have a feeding program. I might come home with nothing or I might come home with 3 trophies. Do I consider it a "canned hunt"? Definitely NOT. Is it like hunting in Alaska? Definitely NOT. Will I come to Alaska again. Definitely YES - Kodiak deer and reindeer in 2009. Will I enjoy both hunts? Definitely YES.

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    Member pinehavensredrocket's Avatar
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    bushrat, i thought your response well thought out, lucid, and to the point. your reference to jim pozewitz (sic) speaks to the larger issue of game, game management, and hunting. not unlike aldo leupold.

    anyway........thanks for your reply, i am in full agreement!

    jh

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    Member bigdog's Avatar
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    What if there is a fence but say it covers 10,000 acres? Is this still a canned hunt? It is hunting behind a fence but an area of that size would force one to actually hunt or find their animal... I have never hunted behind a fence, but there should be a difference I would think if the enclosure is fairly large... There is a ton of this type of hunting in my state (WI) for deer, elk, pigs, birds, etc... Some ranches are 80 acres and others are thousands of acres is there a difference from one to the other? What do you guys think...

  10. #10

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    To define what you ask, is like being asked to define the term Quality.
    Each of us have our own yardstick to measure it by. And they are each and everyone different.
    But....We know it when we see it.

    For myself, I would never participate nor condone the hunting of animals that are not free ranging. I have much distain for those that would hunt or raise animals specifically to "hunt", on game ranches or in pens. Game should remain wild and never attempted to be domesticated. The purposeful intent or actual rearing of exotic or non-native animals to a region should be prohibited. I think it is fine to hunt and shoot a native species on a working ranch or farm, and their presence on the property is incidental and not specific to the monetary success of the farm or ranch. A fee should never be expected nor paid. Any fees associated with trespass or access, cheapens the deal to the point of it no longer being hunting. All hunting regulations should apply to private lands. If they are posted to "No Hunting", this should also apply to the landowner. Wild game populations belong to the people of the state, not to the landowner, simply because they live or wander onto private land. I think you can tell a lot from an individuals geographic home. What is acceptable in Georgia, NY, Calif. or Texas is what it is. It not for the most part in Alaska. Sure you can buy an Elk, Bison, Birds and Fish from private farms, in Alaska, to shoot, but I think most in Alaska would not particiapte nor condone it. Most in fact would speak feverishly in opposition to it. Once again I take the opportunity to denounce it, here.
    "96% of all Internet Quotes are suspect and the remaining 4% are fiction."
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    Member Phish Finder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigdog View Post
    What if there is a fence but say it covers 10,000 acres? Is this still a canned hunt?
    You are talking about a 3 mile by 5 mile area. A fence is a fence is a fence.

    If you are guaranteed success inside a fence, it's a canned hunt. The stock is bred for being shot. It's more ranching than hunting.
    ><((((>.`..`.. ><((((>`..`.><((((>

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    Member bigdog's Avatar
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    Like I say not my cup of tea, but I guess this isn't going to go away anytime soon... I would like to know how much money is spend hunting behind a fence each year, I bet it is amazing....

  13. #13

    Default If I buy an elk for my freezer

    and run it in a chute and cut it's neck...that's ok?

    If I decide to shoot it, it's not ok? I wholeheartedly agree that neither scenario is "hunting", but what do I care? It's meat in the freezer...I prefer to kill my own, you can let someone else do it for you.

    I've seen all kinds of animals on the wall, and after I've talked to the owners, I can tell in 15 minutes if he's a hunter or a shooter.

  14. #14
    Member bigdog's Avatar
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    I agree 257wby, I guess if it keeps them away from my hunting area I don't care what they do... If you want to shoot one for the freezer have at it, just don't tell me how hard you hunted for it or what it scores...

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    Member ret25yo's Avatar
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    ok to throw another wrench in the conversation... what about this senario

    2,000 acres.. total .. 180 acres is triple barbed wire ,highest line 5 feet ( deer..antelope ect.. can jump) you see a ten point within the 180 acres.. Do you shoot it? , is it canned?

    thanks alaskachuck for putting me at 99 rep..

    If you cant stand behind the troops in Iraq.. Feel free to stand in front of them.

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    Member bigdog's Avatar
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    Still would be a free roaming animal... For if you miss he should jump the fence and leave the area...

  17. #17
    Supporting Member Amigo Will's Avatar
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    In Texas 95% of the land is private owned. If you don't own a ranch and want to hunt you get a deer lease.A rancher may lease out 1,000 acres to six hunters. The hunters then put up stands and feeders and build a camp in a area the rancher points out as Ok.With luck you keep the same lease twenty years or more and its where the family hunts.About 2% of the state and federal land in Texas can be hunted by about ten million local hunters if they feel leases are canned hunts and refuse to hunt that way.

  18. #18

    Unhappy

    Quote Originally Posted by Amigo Will View Post
    In Texas 95% of the land is private owned. If you don't own a ranch and want to hunt you get a deer lease.A rancher may lease out 1,000 acres to six hunters. The hunters then put up stands and feeders and build a camp in a area the rancher points out as Ok.With luck you keep the same lease twenty years or more and its where the family hunts.About 2% of the state and federal land in Texas can be hunted by about ten million local hunters if they feel leases are canned hunts and refuse to hunt that way.
    Allow me to express my pity for the Texans. To them it might sorta feel like hunting, but to me it wouldn't. But none of this suprises me, I have hunted with a few Texans up here and heard it all before. No wonder they watch the tv commercials that teach them how to hunt. Sad, very sad. But this doesn't explain why they would pay to "hunt" exotic planted species that they do. Do you think they are so keyed up from the pressures of living in such a close society, that they just have a real urge to go kill something? Anything? Sorta like a way of letting off steam?
    "96% of all Internet Quotes are suspect and the remaining 4% are fiction."
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  19. #19

    Default just my thoughts

    Phil,

    Great question, cant imagine a canned hunt in alaska, because to me canned means like shooting fish in a barrel--and I haven't seen that there. Matter of fact, a guide can't say that he guarentees a kill if Im not mistaken. Hunting is hunting--sometimes it is easy--most of the time not--that is why it is rewarding when we are blessed to take one of Gods Creatures. I don't think it is wrong to hunt fenced in animals--it has its place/purpose--I probably wouldn't brag about it either--but would have no problem taking my kids on this type of hunt to start them out either. Let me also say that there are a lot of people that think that they are great hunters--I believe that I am a very average hunter---that has been blessed by God to have been given the oppurtunities that I have had to harvest animals.

    Good luck in Texas--and I want to hear the full report when you get home with picutres

    Wayne

    AKA Gobblinfool

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    I could have guaranteed success from my bait station for black bear, do you consider that a "canned hunt".

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