View Poll Results: Should .223 FMJ be outlawed for all big game hunting

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Thread: .223 FMJ likely to become illegal...

  1. #1
    Member homerdave's Avatar
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    Thumbs up .223 FMJ likely to become illegal...

    looks like the BOG is going to pass a ban on them for hunting, based on what was on the radio just now.
    original proposal was specific to SE, but the BOG wants to make it statewide.
    one reason quoted on the APRN story was the Pt. Hope caribou slaughter.
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  2. #2
    Member #1duck's Avatar
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    So are the people responsible for poaching those caribou gonna be punished or are they just gonna ban the .223fmj from law abiding hunters?

  3. #3
    Moderator LuJon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by homerdave View Post
    looks like the BOG is going to pass a ban on them for hunting, based on what was on the radio just now.
    original proposal was specific to SE, but the BOG wants to make it statewide.
    one reason quoted on the APRN story was the Pt. Hope caribou slaughter.
    I heard some grumbling about this but felt it was unlikely that there was anything behind it since statewide props aren't being excepted this year. This is certainly a huge negative for all fur hunters! If they are going to push it then it needs to be specific to caribou and larger game. Personally I am against it across the board. I just don't see where it is a big enough problem to require new regulation. I certainly can't see what the bou massacre has to do with the problem. They sure seemed to be dead which would only go to the rounds effectiveness.

  4. #4
    Mark
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    What bearing does a 223 FMJ bullet have on anything?

    Surely there has to be a valid reason for this?

    I fail to see what the Pt. Hope slaughter has with this.

  5. #5
    Moderator LuJon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark View Post
    What bearing does a 223 FMJ bullet have on anything?

    Surely there has to be a valid reason for this?

    I fail to see what the Pt. Hope slaughter has with this.
    The good news (for the anti's) is that by classifying the common .223 bulk ammo as unfit for the taking of game we further advance the argument that "assault" rifles are only for killing people

  6. #6
    Mark
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    Quote Originally Posted by LuJon View Post
    Originally Posted by Mark
    What bearing does a 223 FMJ bullet have on anything?

    Surely there has to be a valid reason for this?

    I fail to see what the Pt. Hope slaughter has with this.
    The good news (for the anti's) is that by classifying the common .223 bulk ammo as unfit for the taking of game we further advance the argument that "assault" rifles are only for killing people......
    Worse, the varmint loads commonly used in .223 ammunition have a complete copper jacket (thus, a Full Metal Jacket).

    Most top quality hunting bullets have full copper jackets.

    And I still don't see the need for the regulation, especially if it was initiated by a high crime like the Pt. Hope slaughter. It's already against the law to kill scores of caribou and leave them to rot on the tundra.

    If this isn't specific to big game, it's a disaster for varmint hunters.

  7. #7
    Moderator LuJon's Avatar
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    From what I understand this regulation was passed in the south east in recent history and they are trying to expand it state wide now. I am not aware of any BOG backing of the prop. So far all I know is that it is in the prop book. Hopefully Troy or one of the other AC members can expound on it a bit for us.

  8. #8
    Member RMiller's Avatar
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    That is assinine.

    Barnes x bullets are full metal jacket too. Northfork bullets and trophy bear claws are fmj with lead cores.

    In this day and age the bullet choices are multiple. There are many more non FMJ bullets that are unsuitable for hunting than there are fmjs.
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  9. #9
    Member homerdave's Avatar
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    gruesendorf (sp?) on the BOG was on tape as being in favor of this.
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  10. #10
    Member martentrapper's Avatar
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    Is this only in .223? Will other small cal fmj's be legal? Sounds difficult to enforce.
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  11. #11
    Member GreenTea's Avatar
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    Default ammo ban

    This is the news from APRN:

    "Using military-style ammunition to hunt big game will no longer be legal in Alaska following action expected this spring by the state Board of Game. At its meeting last November, the Board amended a proposal to ban .223 full metal jacket bullets in Southeast Alaska to include the entire state. Extending the prohibition to include all calibers of full metal jacket bullets remains on the table for the boardís spring meeting."


    The proposal comes from a hunter in Southeast who saw too many deer shot with .223 run off and die without being recovered.

  12. #12
    Moderator LuJon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GreenTea View Post
    This is the news from APRN:

    "Using military-style ammunition to hunt big game will no longer be legal in Alaska following action expected this spring by the state Board of Game. At its meeting last November, the Board amended a proposal to ban .223 full metal jacket bullets in Southeast Alaska to include the entire state. Extending the prohibition to include all calibers of full metal jacket bullets remains on the table for the boardís spring meeting."


    The proposal comes from a hunter in Southeast who saw too many deer shot with .223 run off and die without being recovered.
    Thanks Green Tea (rep added) I hope that we can at least get this eliminated for wolf and wolverine which are both considered "big game" per the regulations. A .223 with FMJs is plenty efficient for them and is much easier on the hide which is the purpose for taking them!

  13. #13
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    Default don't ban .223

    No way should .223 should be banned:

    1) slippery slope. if that passes, how long will it take before we see the list of acceptable rounds to shoot?

    2) Today's broadcast of this from NPR wasn't accurate. They said that a double-lung shot from a .223 would provide no blood trail to track. BS. When they further described 4 dead deer per mile on the beach, my bet is that those were not from hunters that couldn't track their kills, but instead from hunters that drove on to see if the next ones would fall down.

    I would never hunt big game with a .223 myself, but I've watched effective close range headshots of mid-sized animals with this round; worked great every time. And of course its dumb to moose hunt with one.

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  14. #14
    Member chriso's Avatar
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    Default Will it NEVER end???

    It'd sure be nice to have a few moments to take some breaths without yet another attack from yet another angle for them to take away more of our rights. Of a greater concern, it sounds like this time they've bamboozled folks of similar minds and backgrounds (albeit maybe in a broad sense) as the rest of us. I mean, you've got to be really good if you can get the BOG in a place like Alaska, to do your bidding and aid your cause of banning hunting and guns altogether....

  15. #15

    Default FMJ

    Quote Originally Posted by GreenTea View Post
    This is the news from APRN:

    "Using military-style ammunition to hunt big game will no longer be legal in Alaska following action expected this spring by the state Board of Game. At its meeting last November, the Board amended a proposal to ban .223 full metal jacket bullets in Southeast Alaska to include the entire state. Extending the prohibition to include all calibers of full metal jacket bullets remains on the table for the boardís spring meeting."


    The proposal comes from a hunter in Southeast who saw too many deer shot with .223 run off and die without being recovered.
    Many states already have adopted laws to prohibite the use of FMJ bullets while pursueing big game. Many have already adopted laws which prohibit the use of .22 caliber centerfires for the taking of big game. The .223 w/fmj ammo was used irresponsably in the caribou massacre in 1995 and I'm sure was involved in the current massacre as well.
    This might give the state a law under which to prosecute the violaters, since it seems to be lacking a statute for which to prosecute. It would certainly be more expensive to shoot 140 caribou with a 300 Win Mag.
    No "responsable" hunter I know would hunt BIG GAME in Ak with a 223 and FMJ anyway. I'm not argueing that you can't kill any animal on earth with a .223 it's just not ethical to do so.
    The fact that Wolverine and Wolf are classified as Big Game animals shouldn't be a factor they could be taken with a Barne's TSX or NP and do no great damage to the pelt. 22 caliber centerfier FMJ ammo has no place in Big Game sport hunting, regardless of species.


    The fact that ethics have to be legislated and hunters act like spoiled children; Is nothing new. This new law has nothing to do with the current anti-gun legislation.
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  16. #16
    Supporting Member Amigo Will's Avatar
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    More game is killed in Africa with 223 and 7.62x39 than all what we call proper hunting round combined.Game up to the size of Elephant are poached with the 223 FMJ.We most all know the group of folks shooting deer in the S.E. and like it or not stay fairly silent about it.No doubt this ruleing could go way overboard.The 22LR could even be put in the mix.If the call for the ban to be all military cal FMJ ammo we could lose everything from the 45colt,45/70,30-40Kraig,30-06,308 right up to the new 223.If they throw in military from other countries then the 9mm through the whole list fine rounds could be gone.

  17. #17

    Default Not true

    Quote Originally Posted by Amigo Will View Post
    More game is killed in Africa with 223 and 7.62x39 than all what we call proper hunting round combined.Game up to the size of Elephant are poached with the 223 FMJ.We most all know the group of folks shooting deer in the S.E. and like it or not stay fairly silent about it.No doubt this ruleing could go way overboard.The 22LR could even be put in the mix.If the call for the ban to be all military cal FMJ ammo we could lose everything from the 45colt,45/70,30-40Kraig,30-06,308 right up to the new 223.If they throw in military from other countries then the 9mm through the whole list fine rounds could be gone.
    I said everything on earth had been killed with the .223(not legally though). The pracice of hunting elephants with 223 FMJ isn't ethical or we wouldn't need an elphant rifle over 40 caliber. We could all just use an AR-15 platformed weapon with 223 ball ammo; AK's and SKS's don't really fallinto the elephant rifle class either. BUT poachers use what they got without care or remorse.
    As for 22lr ammo it's not Full Metal Jacket ammo anyway, it's copper clad, big difference. 45 colt wasn't loaded with a factory FMJ bullet, neither was the 45-70, so what would the law do to effect these rounds.
    The milatary 30 caliber FMJ ammo while good in it's design has no place in the hunting field either. It's design was to satisfy the Hague convention agreements for ammunition of war. There is no excuse not to use a proper bullet on a game animal, there are many available in every caliber.
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  18. #18
    Member tccak71's Avatar
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    Be thankful we don't have a Board of Wildlife like the anti's have been advocating for years. They'd probably try to do something like outlaw lead bullets.

    Tim

  19. #19
    Mark
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    Quote Originally Posted by GreenTea View Post
    ......The proposal comes from a hunter in Southeast who saw too many deer shot with .223 run off and die without being recovered.
    One wonders how he "saw" this?

  20. #20
    Mark
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    Quote Originally Posted by LuJon View Post
    .....I hope that we can at least get this eliminated for wolf and wolverine which are both considered "big game" per the regulations.....
    They're also furbearers during trapping season.

    So you can shoot them with a 223 under a trapping license and not under a hunting license?

    Aren't volumes of law books fun?

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