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Thread: Guide Board meetings....

  1. #1

    Post Guide Board meetings....

    "I suggest you view my five pages of comments to the board at www.apgs.com/images/Comments_to_the_BGCSB.pdf."

    "http://newsminer.com/news/2008/dec/08/guiding-rules/?opinion

    "....the Alaska guiding businesses will be nothing but a front for rich hunt clubs. These hunt clubs already exist and donate lots of money to the Alaska Professional Hunters Association. The association was the main driving force behind creating the commercial services board and the exclusive use areas. It represents less than 5 percent of the guides."


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    Member BRWNBR's Avatar
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    just read thru your pages there....some good insight and some good questions. i do get the feeling your advocating for the bidding process which concerns me. Also you've got some bunny hugger words in there they use to try ot make a point but come off sounding emotional and uneducated..like murdered and cry baby? maybe switch those up to some more logical and in control...unless you sent that all off already.
    I would also like to know if non res guides will get graded the same as res guides of some of us are gonna get the axe...
    Think any guide with a felony violation of trespass shouldn't even be considered before someone with a clean slate....
    it'll be interesting to see what comes of all this.
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    Here is a working link to Don's Newsminer op-ed:
    http://newsminer.com/news/2008/dec/0...rules/?opinion

    Av, I like to call folks by their first names. So do I call you Don or Smokey?

    Thanks very much for the good op-ed in the Newsminer, and for the comments you sent in to BGCSB. Thanks for taking the time to get involved and fill us all in on what is going on.

    I think this gives us a good opportunity to really discuss this issue here on the forum - the plan to create exclusive guide use areas, what the downside and upside may be, and whether or not we need to change how guides operate now etc.

    Jake, not sure where you stand on this plan for exlusive GUAs on state lands. Most all of the guides I know personally are like you, AK residents, guide their own clients still, don't hire a whole bunch of AGs etc. And of those folks, only one even remotely supports this new GUA plan (because he is likely going to keep his area) but the rest don't support it because they are going to be put out of business.

    One guide I know has guided in 20A for a long time, where we have a lot of guides operating in fairly small areas, and over the years who guides where has been hashed out by handshake and some turmoil, but for the most part it's working there. Now I know this kind of thing isn't working well in some other areas, especially when we get into sheep country. And I do think we have a "problem," but not sure what the solution may be. I've always thought we should change the statutes on guiding and make it so guides have to guide their own clients, and can't just hire on a bunch of AGs and inundate an area and skirt the overall intent of guiding in the first place. Others think that the fed system is working, and want the state to emulate that whereby we assign exlcusive GUAs to a guide based on the same kind of system the feds use.

    Am open to hearing what others think. I do agree with Av's op-ed quote he used...there is the potential for the new plan to turn into a box-store guiding kind of thing, a rich hunt club of sorts.

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    Member BRWNBR's Avatar
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    well i'm not for the exclusive state land stuff, although the people i've talked to haven't even used the word exclusive, i've heard joint use and mulit use and it won't apply to all state land is my understanding, hope to be more educated by the end of this week though.

    I'm in agreement with guides guiding their own clients though, i think that would go a long way in easing some tension, you've got a guide with 8 guides in the field, he's under some pressure to get game on the ground and will be more difficult to deal with than a guide whose only working on one animal at a time.

    I would be very suprised to see this go to a biddin' process, that'll be obviously favored by the guys with the money and the backers and disfavored by guys who think they'll get pinched by this...i'd envison this being more of a prespectise (sp) application process than anything else, i know they've reviewed the process the nat wildlife refugee's use to give out their areas, so we'll see what they do.

    Nat forest permits are given out on a client basis, each guide is given X number of clients he can take in the field on their land per permit term. It works to some extent, but the problem they are having is new permit holders are makin' the older permit holders pie's get smaller...so even that has its problems.

    All this not makin' sense or changing anything, i'd vote for guides doing their own guiding over any idea i've heard yet.
    Or even give each guide one or two AG he can hire that way we can always have new blood entering the business so we don't die off of old age with no new guides to keep it going.
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    Default Av, now I'm really confused

    Av, in the other thread you said "no, Avalanche is not Don Duncan," but this thread at the start says "I suggest you view my five pages of comments..." and is signed Don Duncan.

    I see now you have that in quotes, but I sure didn't catch that and doubt others did either. Pretty confusing for me.

    And Jake, guess we'll find out how any final bidding process may work, hope you and others who are members of APHA will push that the statutes need to be changed and guides go back to guiding clients in the field and cutting back on number of AGs one can hire.

  6. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by bushrat View Post
    Av, in the other thread you said "no, Avalanche is not Don Duncan," but this thread at the start says "I suggest you view my five pages of comments..." and is signed Don Duncan.

    I see now you have that in quotes, but I sure didn't catch that and doubt others did either. Pretty confusing for me.

    And Jake, guess we'll find out how any final bidding process may work, hope you and others who are members of APHA will push that the statutes need to be changed and guides go back to guiding clients in the field and cutting back on number of AGs one can hire.
    Seems we all are susceptible to drawing conclusions pretty easily sometimes on what we 'think' we are reading into a post.


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    nevermind...just more gargon
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    Default You Northern boys have it easy ....

    I haven't kept up to speed on the proposed allocation system ....

    Since I guide on mostly Fed / NF lands and very little State (beach / little uplands) ...

    The Fed is our regulators down here. There is currently a moratorium on new Black Bear permits in all of SE and existing guides are locked in on current allocation's. Brown Bear went quota quite awhile ago. Goat is heavily regulated by the USFS permits issued and they work with the local ADF&G biologist over that. There is no cap or problems getting deer use (within reason) at this time.

    In other words we have been under the heavy ALLOCATION thumb for quite sometime.

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    johnnie, hows that allocation thing sit with everyone and how has that effected the guide biz down there, you were in it before it all went to allocation weren't you?
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    Cool Smokey?

    Bushrat...

    Are you sure about that AVALANCHE connection to Don "Smokey" Duncan?

    The Smokey Duncan I've heard about is a very-big-time, very well respected Master Guide within the Big Game Commercial Services Industry.

    There must be some type of a mistake..."stolen identity"?.

    Dennis B.
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    Default The problem

    AlaskaTrueAdventure, I think avalanche was just cut and paste with out adding enough information. You must read above very carefully or read one of the links to see that is a quote from the article with a link to the 5 pages. The problem with this, is that the guide board also controls the transporters so the average Joe's will be limited by the quota set by the board if they need an Air Taxi. So you better be a guide or have you own plane. Think this is in the guides best interest? I do

    Terry

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    after noticin' the quote i'm pretty sure avalanche is NOT duncan....
    and after reading the 5 pages, didn't sound like the anti guide requirment or bull system that avalanche is always going on about...two different attitudes.
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    Default Dennis, I was mistaken

    Dennis, the way this thread was started I had thought Avalanche was the same guy who posted "I suggest you view my five pages of comments to the board at...."

    Didn't realize that first sentence was in quotes and the "I" wasn't really Avalanche. Sorry for any confusion.

    I'd like to hear from Johnnie too how the fed allocation thing is working for him in SE.

    And Dennis, I think the fact that Don Duncan is a very respected long-time master guide makes his comments and criticism of what is going on even more powerful,

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    Quote Originally Posted by BRWNBR View Post
    well i'm not for the exclusive state land stuff, although the people i've talked to haven't even used the word exclusive, i've heard joint use and mulit use and it won't apply to all state land is my understanding, hope to be more educated by the end of this week though.

    I'm in agreement with guides guiding their own clients though, i think that would go a long way in easing some tension, you've got a guide with 8 guides in the field, he's under some pressure to get game on the ground and will be more difficult to deal with than a guide whose only working on one animal at a time.

    I would be very suprised to see this go to a biddin' process, that'll be obviously favored by the guys with the money and the backers and disfavored by guys who think they'll get pinched by this...i'd envison this being more of a prespectise (sp) application process than anything else, i know they've reviewed the process the nat wildlife refugee's use to give out their areas, so we'll see what they do.

    Nat forest permits are given out on a client basis, each guide is given X number of clients he can take in the field on their land per permit term. It works to some extent, but the problem they are having is new permit holders are makin' the older permit holders pie's get smaller...so even that has its problems.

    All this not makin' sense or changing anything, i'd vote for guides doing their own guiding over any idea i've heard yet.
    Or even give each guide one or two AG he can hire that way we can always have new blood entering the business so we don't die off of old age with no new guides to keep it going.
    As a resident hunter who does not use the services of a guide, I would prefer to see exclusive guide use areas similar to the federal system. I've found that on federal lands I hunt exclusive guide use areas provide for a higher quality experience.

    If I were a guide working on state land I would probably feel differently about the situation and having the registered guide be in the field with all of the clients would reduce crowding just as well as exclusive guide areas.

    I'd hate to see hard working, Alaska resident guides who actually spend time in the field with clients put out of business.

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    Member Chisana's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Terry View Post
    The problem with this, is that the guide board also controls the transporters so the average Joe's will be limited by the quota set by the board if they need an Air Taxi. So you better be a guide or have you own plane. Think this is in the guides best interest? I do
    A quota on air taxis won't make any difference unless it is set on the number of air taxis using an area. Most of the people I fly with will not bring in more than one party to the same area at one time. The crowding comes when multiple air taxis/guides are using the same areas.

  16. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chisana View Post
    I'd hate to see hard working, Alaska resident guides who actually spend time in the field with clients put out of business.
    So would I. Each year that goes by 'those' guys; the real deal guides, are getting run over by the good ol' boys club i.e. APHA. As we all know MOST real deal guides do not run with the APHA crowd; for good reason.


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    Default Bgcsb

    OK, OK, OK.
    There seems to be a lot of mis-information, partial-information, opinion, and plain old fashioned BS about the the BGSCB and the guide-outfiter and transporters industries..

    There is also a bunch af mis-directed information about APHA. I support some of APHA ideals and other ...not so much.

    Everybody just missed a great opportunity to learn about APHA. The annual meeting was 12/05 and 12/06/08. Every guide with a license was sent an invitation.

    The next great opportunity to learn about big game commercial services is on 12/09, 12/10, and 12/11/08 at the Egan Center. You will learn more by attending one meeting then you ever will by listening to the fear and superstition of any internet expert, or by cutting and pasting a bunch of fragmented concepts.

    Attend.
    Attend if your a guide, or a guide-outfitter, or a transporter.
    Attend if your a hunter.
    Learn.
    Participate.
    Be part of the solution...or part of the problem.
    Start the revolution.

    Dennis

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    Default the FED system

    Does prevent overcrowding (by guides)... but I don't think you could call it 'exclusive' use ... at least not on USFS forest lands.

    I have been around for some time and seen the system go through many changes. From each individual Guide having to ask for exact days in advance to be used ... an add in the local paper for each individual Guide as per NEPA ... to a total collapse of the system ... to the one we are working under today. A system based on 'hunts' not day use. One hunter = one hunt. The Fed cannot regulate animals (dead or wounded) just upland use. So on that basis you are only allowed X number of hunts for each specie ... success or non-success in kill does not matter.

    Not only do we have to keep up all our State paper work and reports we also have to do our Fed paper (annual operating plan, pre-season planning, end of the season activity report which includes GPS cords on daily movement during a hunt, IDing camp locations and kill sites, and more) ..... and the Fed and State paper have to match because when the Brown Bear went to Quota based on past use .... the 2 years that were picked for basing the Quota allocation; the Fed matched the State / Fed paper turned in by the Guide and if it didn't match the Guide got Zero Bear hunts ... several Guides got Zero Brown Bears.

    The Fed system keeps the working guides spread out, even when several guides work the same GUA, kind-of. By allowing / regulating your permit and your annual operating plan. In your annual operating plan you have to be specific ... now-a-days ... much more specific than in the past.

    One Guide got busted for allowing his Mt Goat hunter to trap while hunting late season Goat from the beach. The Guides Permit did not contain combo Mt Goat / Trapping language. Same goes for Fishing or any other activity that you conduct on NF. You must make sure your Operating Plan contains all the proper verbiage and all that is approved and included in your signed permit.

    Once you have a long track record (nothing negative) with the USFS your Use is considered Priority and you get to lock your permit in for 3, 5 or even 10 years at a time. Then just being required to submit an annual operating plan ... but until then your permit is issued on a yearly basis.

    When the caps were placed on Brown Bear / Black Bear there will be no new permits issued and we are held to allocated number of hunts. That does make it difficult for a new Guide to get going. It is already difficult for a new Guide as the amount of paper work / time required to get through the Fed process is very intimidating in itself.

    For Brown Bear; less guides is the object so when attrition takes place that is just one less guide working Brown Bear, type thing ... to my knowledge as for the Black Bear cap there is no plan when attrition takes place to fill that Guides slot ... at this time.

    Some Guides were working the 'below high tide' hunt and not having a USFS permit for the uplands ... working under State DNR allowed use or permit ... that was one of the reasons for the tweaking of the 'upland owner permission / contiguous acres' laws that were written into the newest Guide Law.

    Could the Fed system use some tweaking .... yes. But for now it seems to be a good working relationship with most Guides that I know.

    The USFS considers the relationship with a Guide a partnership. The bottom line is client satisfaction while hunting the USFS uplands. If the USFS permits a Guide that basically is the USFS endorsing that Guide as a good, legal, upfront partner.

    The Fed Permit System is currently under a rebuild on a National Level and we will see where that takes us in the future.

    Just some rambling .... thoughts.

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    Member muskeg's Avatar
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    Default APHA membership

    Quote Originally Posted by AVALANCHE View Post
    So would I. Each year that goes by 'those' guys; the real deal guides, are getting run over by the good ol' boys club i.e. APHA. As we all know MOST real deal guides do not run with the APHA crowd; for good reason.
    I don't think that is a true statement at all .... many Guides in SE are members and are 'real deal' guides .... and in the statement you cut and pasted said that 95% of the Guides don't belong to the APHA ... I can't see where that is at all an accurate statement.

    The last time I looked there were like 140 Guides in membership ...

    How many Guides are currently Guiding hunts in AK anyway?

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    Member BRWNBR's Avatar
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    140 registered or 140 master, reg and asst?
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