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Thread: Jeff King

  1. #1
    Member AKBassking's Avatar
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    Question Jeff King

    OK Admins, is it OK now to discuss Mr. King's verdict and fine of $1750?

    It would seem that Mr. King should have known where he was in relation to the park line.

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    Forum Admin Brian M's Avatar
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    Yep, fair game now that the verdict has been rendered. Even King himself expressed relief that it is over.

    I do hope we can avoid raking him over the coals. If there are lessons to be learned, that is worth discussing. If we just want to make a spectacle of a public figure, I'd rather we didn't.

  3. #3
    Mark
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    Quote Originally Posted by AKBassking View Post
    ......It would seem that Mr. King should have known where he was in relation to the park line.
    The news reports I heard state that it was 600' inside the park.

    Can anyone tell me why he should have known?

    Was the boundry a river or waterline?

    It sounds to me like he was railroaded. He was even charged over $5K for "restitution" to the Park Service.

    What was that for?

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    Default ?

    I think that he was also charged with using an argo inside the park. Not sure if that was also included in his conviction. Whether he knew or not, fact is its over. Just a reminder for all of us to watch where we hunt.

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    Member Vince's Avatar
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    i will agree that 600 foot is not much. but when you know that you are on or near a boundary line your GPS or other methods has best be up to date.. ultimately it is UP to they hunter to know where he is at.

    in relations it is no difference then shooting a moose just in side the wood river CUA and then using your wheeler to get it out any way..then saying OH... i didn't know it was RIGHT there.......


    it would have been a hugely different story had he had proof that he shot the moose on one side and it died on the other.. he claimed the park boundary should have been MORE clearly marked...so i guess the state and feds need to pay some college kids to spray paint the boundary lines on every gmu and sub unit ans CUA and closed units exactly where they are with color codes paints...so that each of us have clearly marked lines to follow.

    there is also the argument that in dealing with fed/state lines that the people regulating these are also uniformed as to the exact locations as well. and that you will on occasion get the wrong information, however i do not feel Mr. King had this problem. it could be he made a honest mistake, and it could be he honestly did not know where he was.

    For myself i can honestly say that i put a lot of effort into knowing WHERE i will be hunting and, that by reading these forum daily that the huge majority of us also plan accordingly. I feel Mr King should have been more responsible for his actions ONCE HE was shown he was in the wrong and admitted he made a mistake rather then cost the state his expense of the trial and hubbub around it all.. though that was his right to do so.




    as we are ALL held responsible for our actions and knowing the who, what , where, while WE are HUNTING..
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    Member AKBassking's Avatar
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    I would agree that there are lessons to be learned here. A hunter is ultimately responsible to know where he/she is in relation to boundaries. Just like knowing if a moose is 50 inches or 491/2. Not sure don't shoot.

    Not sure where the line is, move to where you are certain.

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    Default hunting location

    approximately 600 feet inside the boundary.
    rifle hunting along the dalton highway - you would have a very good chance of getting a ticket for hunting 600 feet closer to the highway than the 5 mile limit. you are expected to know exactly where you are in relation to the 5 mile limit up there. so it seems like it should be the same anywhere else.
    I was surprised that hunting privileges were not suspended for at least a year.

  8. #8

    Default I still think

    that any boundary that applies to people wandering around off the road should be based on a geological line, a river, one side of a trail, this drainage but not that one etc.
    I am not saying he wasn't wrong, I just think that having recognizable features on the ground delineating boundaries for activities would be much easier for the users and easier (and cheaper) for the enforcers to prosecute.
    With the GPS we have now it is possible to know which side of the line (that runs down the middle of this alder valley/swamp) you are on but what did we do before GPS?? Not hunting/trapping/prospoecting all the land within a mile of the legal boundary of a park just because you want to guarantee you don't cross the line is just making the park that much bigger.
    Again, not saying he was in the right. If you use a boundary marker as a rifle rest (while you can read the words on the sign) you deserve everything you get!
    I know this won't change, and with the conveyances to the native corps accelerating it will just get worse.
    Mike
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    Member stevelyn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark View Post
    The news reports I heard state that it was 600' inside the park.

    Can anyone tell me why he should have known?

    Was the boundry a river or waterline?

    It sounds to me like he was railroaded. He was even charged over $5K for "restitution" to the Park Service.

    What was that for?
    Yes, what was that for?

    I really don't have the confidence that anyone getting out of sorts with fedgov's interests is going to be trated fairly.
    Now what ?

  10. #10
    Mark
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    Quote Originally Posted by stevelyn View Post
    Originally Posted by Mark
    .......It sounds to me like he was railroaded. He was even charged over $5K for "restitution" to the Park Service.

    What was that for?
    Yes, what was that for?.....
    I went back and read every news article I could on the ruling. There weren't many.

    The news reports (like usual) were pretty free-wheeling with the facts. It appears that the fine was $4,000, and $750 was for "restitution".

    There was no information that I could find on what that was for.

    ....I really don't have the confidence that anyone getting out of sorts with fedgov's interests is going to be trated fairly.
    600' inside the park, at an unmarked boundary, seems pretty zealous and aggressive "law enforcement" to me.

    Hell, my 3 1/2 acre lot is 600' long.

    I wonder where these aggressive Feds are with regard to the Pt. Hope caribou slaughter?

    (The maps I see show the area to be mostly BLM and Native lands...........)

  11. #11
    Supporting Member Amigo Will's Avatar
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    We had a case in 94 where a man shot a moose on private land. The land owner was told if he didn't want hunting on his land he had to post a sign every fifty feet around his complette property as all game belonged to the state. Why do regular folks have to mark boundries and the goverment not if game is not to be taken.By the way loved watching the greenies try to figure out how to post all those signs plus keep them up,one missing the whole thing was out the window.

  12. #12
    Member Kay9Cop's Avatar
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    The park boundary is clearly marked on USGS maps. The map Mr. King used in his defense was not a USGS map and was more akin to a tourist map they hand out at the entrance to the park. A GPS and a USGS map could have saved him a lot of hassle.
    "Beware the man with only one gun; he may know how to use it."

  13. #13
    Mark
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    600' is a 200 yard shot.

    I can nearly spit that far.

  14. #14
    Moderator LuJon's Avatar
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    Why is it that every other land owner is supposed to mark his property if he doesn't want people to hunt on it except the Feds? The Feds seem to feel like we (the state) own parts of their giant park (Alaska-land) not vice versa. Of course I have voice my opinion that the federal govt should not be in the land owner game!

  15. #15
    webmaster Michael Strahan's Avatar
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    Default On the other hand...

    Quote Originally Posted by LuJon View Post
    Why is it that every other land owner is supposed to mark his property if he doesn't want people to hunt on it except the Feds? The Feds seem to feel like we (the state) own parts of their giant park (Alaska-land) not vice versa. Of course I have voice my opinion that the federal govt should not be in the land owner game!
    Okay I'll play Devil's Advocate. Why is is that in a state twice the size of Texas, some of us have to hunt so close to the line of no-man's land that we end up in situations like this? The law is the law, and he broke it. Simple as that. Why would anyone walk so close to the edge that they put themselves at risk?

    Sometimes the law has subtle nuances that leave room for interpretation. But we're talking about a line here. Not a zone, or a gray area, or a general vicinity, but a line, with a legal description. If you owned a cattle ranch and your neighbor built a barn 200' inside the border of your land, would you call it "close enough"?

    The law has to play hard ball on things like this. If they (we) didn't, there are those among us who would take it even farther, and farther, and farther... pretty soon the law would mean nothing. This verdict sends a message that you cannot hunt inside the Park. Simple. There is no guesswork to this, no ambiguity, no "I hope I'm not hunting in the wrong area". There is only in or out. I don't know what was in King's mind at the time he did what he did, but it is apparent that he did not take the steps he should have to make sure he was in the clear.

    This is not a new law either; it's been in place for decades. So there is no excuse, folks. Agree or disagree, over-zealous enforcement or no, this one is not a matter of interpretation. He knew the law (or should have), and whether through carelessness or intent, broke it. He got caught, and now has to pay the penalty.

    That's it.

    What alternative do we have? Ignore this? Imagine what message that sends. I hope that's not what some of us are suggesting.

    -Mike
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  16. #16
    Member Vince's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LuJon View Post
    Why is it that every other land owner is supposed to mark his property if he doesn't want people to hunt on it except the Feds? The Feds seem to feel like we (the state) own parts of their giant park (Alaska-land) not vice versa. Of course I have voice my opinion that the federal govt should not be in the land owner game!

    Except the feds Lujon? I don't see any state signs out there either..

    lets take a trip around 20A. and all the CUA's or 13.. abcdefghi,or J or how every many there are now... there are NO markers out there and thats the point.. you and i KNOW we are responsible for were we hunt and we make the efforts to do it correctly... why shouldn't some famos guy who runs dogs for proft. has TV spots all over the world and way more income to blow on toys. then You or I will see in the next few years...
    "If you are on a continuous search to be offended, you will always find what you are looking for; even when it isn't there."

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    Member sayak's Avatar
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    Default I'll counter your devil's advocacy

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Strahan View Post
    Okay I'll play Devil's Advocate. Why is is that in , some of us have to hunt so close to the line of no-man's land that we end up in situations like this? The law is the law, and he broke it. Simple as that. Why would anyone walk so close to the edge that they put themselves at risk?
    So why in a state as big as Alaska should a measly 600 some feet mean that much? This isn't like the guy who killed the caribou in front of a tourist bus in the park some years ago. This is a long time Alaskan who is going about a traditional activity and made a mistake. If I remember correctly, even the ADFG allows a little grace when caught commercial fishing over the line.

    I'm sure King had his reasons for hunting so close to the park boundary. I'm sure he knew the risks also. He should have been more careful. But man, he was barely over the line in a state "twice the size of Texas". Big deal. There needs to be some flexibility.

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    Why would anyone walk so close to the edge that they put themselves at risk?


    Good point .

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    Default how much

    of a fine do you think the wanton waste caribou killers will pay?
    Gary

  20. #20
    webmaster Michael Strahan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sayak View Post
    So why in a state as big as Alaska should a measly 600 some feet mean that much? This isn't like the guy who killed the caribou in front of a tourist bus in the park some years ago. This is a long time Alaskan who is going about a traditional activity and made a mistake. If I remember correctly, even the ADFG allows a little grace when caught commercial fishing over the line.

    I'm sure King had his reasons for hunting so close to the park boundary. I'm sure he knew the risks also. He should have been more careful. But man, he was barely over the line in a state "twice the size of Texas". Big deal. There needs to be some flexibility.
    I already answered this, but I'll try again.

    Over the line is over the line. It's simple. You are not almost over the line, kind of over the line, or partially over the line. It's a line; you are on one side of it or another.

    Second, if by "mistake" you mean that he made an error in his calculations or that he had insufficient knowledge, it does not matter. The legal descriptions of these boundaries are well established, as is our responsibility to know where those boundaries lie. Or perhaps you mean that he was careless? That's even worse in my opinion, because it suggests a cavalier disregard of the law. In that case it does not matter either. Either perspective led him to a place where he broke the law, and that, in the end, is what matters.

    You said he was participating in a "traditional activity". Yes, hunting is a traditional activity, but doing so with no regard for the law is not. I know that for some it is almost a game, dodging this way and that, running along the fence hoping to not get caught. We've all heard the stories. Well, this time he was caught. To defend him in that context is something I cannot imagine doing.

    You mentioned "grace". The definition of that word is "unmerited favor". The primary duty of our courts is to ensure that the law is followed, and that appropriate penalties are applied in cases where the law is broken. Courts are not in the business of extending grace. Though they look at extenuating circumstances, previous criminal behavior, etc, they use these factors to craft appropriate responses that fit the individuals involved. This is not grace.

    As to other cases where the law was broken and nobody penalized, or cases where people were penalized too harshly, etc. I cannot answer those. All I'm trying to do is bring another perspective in THIS situation. There is no question that our legal system is broken and that there are many, many problems with it. But in at least this case, they got a guy who broke the law and successfully prosecuted him for it.

    Big deal? You bet it is.

    -Mike
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