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Thread: Where does the money go?

  1. #1
    Member Rock_skipper's Avatar
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    Default Where does the money go?

    I just recently had a meeting with the head of the AC here in delta and we got to talking about where all the money from the fines go that have been levied against the hunters that have to go to court, and what part of the system the money went to. From his understanding it all goes to the state for whatever purpose it's needed. (potholes, signs, etc.) We went through alot of subject's, and you'll be seeing more post's from myself on this subject, and a couple of others. Right now I'm wondering why that money can't be put back into the wildlife mang. to get better counts, and better understanding of the wildlife. Yes Bushrat I have all the info. from when they started the surveys to date. I am not convinced.
    I'll go into that later. This money can be put towards alot of flying, snowmachine, or boat time to see what is really out there rather than taking a guess . All For Now E.S.

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    Moderator LuJon's Avatar
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    Seems like a valid question at face value.
    To play the devils advocate however why should the money obtained by law enforcement go to wildlife management? Do you think that the ADF&G funds should be used to pay for the wildlife troopers? Should F&G be forced to budget for the legal expenses for prosecution?

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    Member Vince's Avatar
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    okay here is my layman's understanding because i am currently working on legislations for an indigent fund in the DWI law. that will be funded by non indigent DWI convictions..


    the hard part is making a fund that has a "sticky" and stays in place. Alaska constitution does allow for funding certain places however at the end of the year the monies left over roll into the general fund again..

    it is not IMPOSSIBLE to build a savings fund but it does take a lot of work to set up a dedicated fund, it may be possible to earmark the future fine monies to fund the budgets increases.. however fines are such a variable to calculate. what if nobody was bad? there would have to be a constants source of funding in to that budget outside of the fines and penalties...as of now the comes from the general fund.


    I will be back in the Legislative office Wednesday... so can ask more then..
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    Member Rock_skipper's Avatar
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    Lujon, I believe that all the State departments get a certian amount of funding, including the State Troopers and F&G enforcement. The thing is, is everyone is crying we need more money. My concern is that the BOG says it is to expencive to do a complete survey, so I'm trying to figure out how to get more money into this area.

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    Member bushrat's Avatar
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    Not to beat a dead horse E.S., but imo the best way to get more funds into Division of Wildlife Conservation is a hunting license/tag fee increase.

    Inre where the money from fines etc goes, I could be wrong but it was my understanding that any confiscated antlers/horns or hides from DLP kills of bears are auctioned off with a small percentage of that going to whomever holds the auction and the rest going straight to Division of Wildlife Conservation. Now on really big cases where things like super cubs are confiscated, I don't know what happens to the money from the sale of those items. I would hope AWT (Alaska Wildlife Troopers) sees some of it.



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    Member Rock_skipper's Avatar
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    Thanks Bushrat. My Question is to all of you out there, is where would like to see the money go? More troopers, more surveys(to get a more defined count) parks, etc.? This is monies from fines, and confiscated items. Remember what Vince said "if everybody was good there would be non of this money", but you would still have the troopers out there making sure that you were being a good hunter/fisherman. Just like some thoughts, E.S.

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    Member Vince's Avatar
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    E.S i can see where your going with this.

    and i am not sure we have that much say over department budgetary.

    we can not set up a "dedicated fund" for one subject. and fund the next out of the general fund.

    we can't necessarily ask for MORE funding in one area with out taking it from another...bush rat s right the only way we can ask for both is to GET MORE MONEY... every one says cut the fat first.. sure..your fat is another mans, shade in the form of a, education, bmx track, skate park, youth summer camp, power line grant, school funding, bus service..you name it. pick one .

    you know dang well the one's RUNNING the programs are still going to need to run it and since working in "official positions" officially sucks... then they are gong to get paid for it.
    "If you are on a continuous search to be offended, you will always find what you are looking for; even when it isn't there."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vince View Post
    and i am not sure we have that much say over department budgetary. ...bush rat s right the only way we can ask for both is to GET MORE MONEY...
    WE more say than we are exercising and we can come up with other ideas to collect more than just increased fees on non-commercial hunters and fisherman too.

    So, not to beat a dead horse but:

    WHY aren't our legislators collecting slaughter taxes from the commercial sport fishing and the commercial hunting industries to help fund the departments?

    WHY aren't our legislators REQUIREING the Big Game Commercial Services Board to collect MORE than enough money for "licensing" guides to fund the actual costs of operating the BGCSB?

    There is more we can do than just increase the cost of license and tags to everyone.

    BTW.....The Alaska Professional Hunters Association is making noise (annual meeting yesterday and today at the Millennium) about increasing non-resident Moose tags to $3,000.00.....and of course they are making lots of other 'noise' to increase their share of the resource for themselves too....should have been there to see the 'magic tricks'...got to go back now....


    Cheers.

    AVALANCHE


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    Member bushrat's Avatar
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    Default AV...?

    Av, hate to just have rumors tossed out there...so where are you getting info that APHA is really interested in pushing a tag fee increase to non-res hunters on that scale? That's the most absurd thing I've heard lately and imo there is no way APHA would ever push for such a thing.

    I'd hate for you to be posting what may have been suggested by a member or something; folks toss out ideas and opinions all the time but that doesn't mean the org supports it.

  10. #10

    Angry Dont use the hate word with me Bushrat.

    Quote Originally Posted by bushrat View Post
    Av, hate to just have rumors tossed out there...so where are you getting info that APHA is really interested in pushing a tag fee increase to non-res hunters on that scale? That's the most absurd thing I've heard lately and imo there is no way APHA would ever push for such a thing.

    I'd hate for you to be posting what may have been suggested by a member or something; folks toss out ideas and opinions all the time but that doesn't mean the org supports it.
    You know what I hate Bushrat; I hate that you imply you "know"and are some kind of an expert onhow APHA thinks, how they work, how they run their annual business meeting and what they are up to and to what limits they would go to protect their special commercial interests in our public resources.

    Of course you have not seen the "WILDLIFE CONSERVATION REFORM POROPOSAL TALKING POINTS" paper that the APHA leadership rolled out to the members at the meeting. They rolled out the talking pts. memo to the members AFTER having already met with the Governor' chief of staff. Do you know how that went Bushrat?

    The 'paper' is chock full of negative admisssions that the industry is destroying the resources and as an industry operating out-side-of-the law.
    The 'paper' acknowledges it's days are numbered but pleads with the governor to 'make a way' for their industry inspite of it all.

    The Administration has advised APHA they intentd to act on their behalf. Which of course EVERYONE knows is not in the public interests.

    Check with the Governor or her Chief of Staff if you want another source.

    I'm done giving facts as clues.

    You know what else I hate Bushrat; that you even think for one second you have standing to imply that I overstated, deliberately misrepresented, dramatized, started a rumor or flat out made up anything discussed by the APHA membership. I stated what was discussed applicable to the conduct and style of APHA's annual business meetings.

    Many of us here understand the power and the level of control APHA has over the public process; and that Bushrat is soft on the special interest of the commercial huting industry.

    This industry is complicating our resource management problems, stealing our resources and destroying our future; Bushrat knows that. He has a different approach.
    Thats fine. There can be no question he is 'soft' on the commercial hunting industry.


  11. #11
    Member Vince's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AVALANCHE View Post
    You know what I hate Bushrat; I hate that you imply you "know"and are some kind of an expert onhow APHA thinks, how they work, how they run their annual business meeting and what they are up to and to what limits they would go to protect their special commercial interests in our public resources.

    Of course you have not seen the "WILDLIFE CONSERVATION REFORM POROPOSAL TALKING POINTS" paper that the APHA leadership rolled out to the members at the meeting. They rolled out the talking pts. memo to the members AFTER having already met with the Governor' chief of staff. Do you know how that went Bushrat?

    The 'paper' is chock full of negative admisssions that the industry is destroying the resources and as an industry operating out-side-of-the law.
    The 'paper' acknowledges it's days are numbered but pleads with the governor to 'make a way' for their industry inspite of it all.

    The Administration has advised APHA they intentd to act on their behalf. Which of course EVERYONE knows is not in the public interests.

    Check with the Governor or her Chief of Staff if you want another source.

    I'm done giving facts as clues.

    You know what else I hate Bushrat; that you even think for one second you have standing to imply that I overstated, deliberately misrepresented, dramatized, started a rumor or flat out made up anything discussed by the APHA membership. I stated what was discussed applicable to the conduct and style of APHA's annual business meetings.

    Many of us here understand the power and the level of control APHA has over the public process; and that Bushrat is soft on the special interest of the commercial huting industry.

    This industry is complicating our resource management problems, stealing our resources and destroying our future; Bushrat knows that. He has a different approach. Thats fine. There can be no question he is 'soft' on the commercial hunting industry.

    AV, where do i get my eyes on this info?

    thanks
    "If you are on a continuous search to be offended, you will always find what you are looking for; even when it isn't there."

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  12. #12

    Arrow Thanks for asking...

    Quote Originally Posted by Vince View Post
    AV, where do i get my eyes on this info?

    thanks
    I meant it when I said I am done giving facts as clues.

    Do a Freedom of information [FOIA] request regarding meetings and communications with the Governors Chief of Staff, The Governor Bobby Fithinan and the Alaska Professional Hunters Association with reference to the Wildlife Conservation Reform Proposal Talking Points dated November 12,2008. Ask APHA for a recap of the meeting.....look for notes or recordings or documents....join the group yourself try and talk to someone else who was there....it's gross that there were less than 40 people there and less than 200 total membership and we are letting them control the process.

    Anyway Vince (not to be rude) if you want to know more your just going to have to find another way. I am pretty much finished on this issue here.

    I am going to take a holiday soon, the legislative session will be starting by the time I get back and it will be full on Avalanche season...there is too much to be done to monkey around with lets be easy on the commercial industry aka. Bushrat

    Bushrats rhetoric....awe shucks lets just all get along and pony up some more money for tags and licenses and see how that goes towards 'fixing' our issues guys.

    When it comes to conserving what is left of our resources and establishing the allocative protocol of the non-commercial hunters interests..........Bushrat's softball game is not going to get it.


  13. #13
    Member Vince's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AVALANCHE View Post
    I meant it when I said I am done giving facts as clues.

    Do a Freedom of information [FOIA] request regarding meetings and communications with the Governors Chief of Staff, The Governor Bobby Fithinan and the Alaska Professional Hunters Association with reference to the Wildlife Conservation Reform Proposal Talking Points dated November 12,2008. Ask APHA for a recap of the meeting.....look for notes or recordings or documents....join the group yourself try and talk to someone else who was there....it's gross that there were less than 40 people there and less than 200 total membership and we are letting them control the process.

    Anyway Vince (not to be rude) if you want to know more your just going to have to find another way. I am pretty much finished on this issue here.

    I am going to take a holiday soon, the legislative session will be starting by the time I get back and it will be full on Avalanche season...there is too much to be done to monkey around with lets be easy on the commercial industry aka. Bushrat

    Bushrats rhetoric....awe shucks lets just all get along and pony up some more money for tags and licenses and see how that goes towards 'fixing' our issues guys.

    When it comes to conserving what is left of our resources and establishing the allocative protocol of the non-commercial hunters interests..........Bushrat's softball game is not going to get it.
    thank AV... i am still learing this side
    "If you are on a continuous search to be offended, you will always find what you are looking for; even when it isn't there."

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    AVALANCHE...I sat through both days of the APHA meeting Fri and Sat. If you were there, you never objected to anything anybody said. And I never heard Bob F. or anybody else talk about any $3000.00 nonresident moose tags you mentioned in a prior post. I just read through the Wildlife Conservation Reform Proposal Talking Points paper, dated 11-12-08. I do not see any mention of $3000.00 nonresident moose tags. And the points discussed in the talking points paper, discussed on 12-06-08 at the APHA meeting, mostly make great sence to this hunter-guide. And again, if you were at the meeting it would have been an appropriate time for you to voice your beliefs and objections.
    If you had been there and voiced your objections, I'm sure I would have remembered. And if you had, you might have initiated some great and necessary discussions. But you were not there.
    Perhaps you will attend the BGCSB meeting on Tue, Wed, and Thursday at the Egan Center. This would be another great venue for you to express your viewpoints concerning the big game commercial services provided in Alaska.
    I just read through the talking points paper a 2nd time today. Based on the opinions you have expressed many times in your prior forum posts, I think you would probably agree with the vast majority of this APHA document.

    Dennis
    AK TAGS

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    Quote Originally Posted by AlaskaTrueAdventure View Post
    AVALANCHE...I sat through both days of the APHA meeting Fri and Sat. If you were there, you never objected to anything anybody said. And I never heard Bob F. or anybody else talk about any $3000.00 nonresident moose tags you mentioned in a prior post. I just read through the Wildlife Conservation Reform Proposal Talking Points paper, dated 11-12-08. I do not see any mention of $3000.00 nonresident moose tags. And the points discussed in the talking points paper, discussed on 12-06-08 at the APHA meeting, mostly make great sence to this hunter-guide. And again, if you were at the meeting it would have been an appropriate time for you to voice your beliefs and objections.
    If you had been there and voiced your objections, I'm sure I would have remembered. And if you had, you might have initiated some great and necessary discussions. But you were not there.
    Perhaps you will attend the BGCSB meeting on Tue, Wed, and Thursday at the Egan Center. This would be another great venue for you to express your viewpoints concerning the big game commercial services provided in Alaska.
    I just read through the talking points paper a 2nd time today. Based on the opinions you have expressed many times in your prior forum posts, I think you would probably agree with the vast majority of it.

    Dennis
    AK TAGS
    I do agree many of the issues raised in the paper are worthy of public discussion. I wont waste my time with the BGCSB that is owned and operated by the special interest commercial hunting industry.....


  16. #16

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    Guide Board meetings.... "I suggest you view my five pages of comments to the board at www.apgs.com/images/Comments_to_the_BGCSB.pdf."

    "http://newsminer.com/news/2008/dec/08/guiding-rules/?opinion

    "....the Alaska guiding businesses will be nothing but a front for rich hunt clubs. These hunt clubs already exist and donate lots of money to the Alaska Professional Hunters Association. The association was the main driving force behind creating the commercial services board and the exclusive use areas. It represents less than 5 percent of the guides."




    Quote Originally Posted by AlaskaTrueAdventure View Post
    AVALANCHE...I sat through both days of the APHA meeting Fri and Sat. If you were there, you never objected to anything anybody said. And I never heard Bob F. or anybody else talk about any $3000.00 nonresident moose tags you mentioned in a prior post. I just read through the Wildlife Conservation Reform Proposal Talking Points paper, dated 11-12-08. I do not see any mention of $3000.00 nonresident moose tags. And the points discussed in the talking points paper, discussed on 12-06-08 at the APHA meeting, mostly make great sence to this hunter-guide. And again, if you were at the meeting it would have been an appropriate time for you to voice your beliefs and objections.
    If you had been there and voiced your objections, I'm sure I would have remembered. And if you had, you might have initiated some great and necessary discussions. But you were not there.
    Perhaps you will attend the BGCSB meeting on Tue, Wed, and Thursday at the Egan Center. This would be another great venue for you to express your viewpoints concerning the big game commercial services provided in Alaska.
    I just read through the talking points paper a 2nd time today. Based on the opinions you have expressed many times in your prior forum posts, I think you would probably agree with the vast majority of this APHA document.

    Dennis
    AK TAGS


  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by AVALANCHE View Post
    Originally Posted by Vince
    AV, where do i get my eyes on this info?.......

    I meant it when I said I am done giving facts as clues......
    He wasn't asking for "clues". He was asking for the info that you presented as fact.

    Got it to reference back?

  18. #18
    Member bushrat's Avatar
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    Default Avalanche...

    Av,

    Hey. It's -45 here, doesn't get light til 9am and is dark dark by 4.

    Sorry if my other post came across wrong. For the record, all I was trying to say I suppose was that your initial post on the APHA stuff came across more as rumor than fact, and I just didn't think we should be throwing rumors around. I am certainly no expert on APHA or any other org and never implied I was.

    As to your claim that I am "soft" on the commercial hunting industry, I'm not really sure what that means or how to put it in context. The way you put it it comes off like I am some sort of bad guy for not being harder on that industry.

    I want to tell you something in all candor, but let me preface it by saying I very much respect your opinion and your tenacity in trying to highlight some of the problems we have with the commercial hunting industry. It is that very same tenacity that tends to work against you I think, because for the most part you tend to be a single-issue poster: "The Commercial Hunting Industry is Bad!"

    And maybe I too come off as a single-issue poster on the mgmt forum as well, which is something to think on. Because I think folks tire of hearing the same thing over and over. Maybe in the long run it is like crying wolf and then people just skim over our posts and get to thinking "yeah sure, whatever dude."

    I really believe that education is a good thing, that if we can present facts we can all learn something here in discussing those facts and presenting our differing opinions. Maybe my post directed toward you was too off-the-cuff and harsh, and again my apologies to you for coming across wrong.

    I think there are times when what you post tends to make all guides look bad, or alludes that. And there are times I try to correct that perception. And it's ironic I suppose cuz it turns out you are Don Duncan, a master guide (I just read your good op-ed in the Newsminer, and your comments sent in)!

    Which leaves me wondering why you've been reluctant to say who you were for so long...had you all along said you were a guide posting all this stuff, I think many would have viewed it differently.

    Anyway, will comment on the other thread you started.
    Allbest,

  19. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by bushrat View Post
    I want to tell you something in all candor, but let me preface it by saying I very much respect your opinion and your tenacity in trying to highlight some of the problems we have with the commercial hunting industry. It is that very same tenacity that tends to work against you I think, because for the most part you tend to be a single-issue poster: "The Commercial Hunting Industry is Bad!"
    Well Bushrat I appreciate your observations.

    Those who want to chat about hunting, guns, gear, operators, equiment, places, times, locations can. I read a lot of that stuff and where I can add something in those type threads I have; on occasion.

    The single most important issue to all Alaskan must be to get the out of control commercial hunting and commercial sport fishing industries into compliance with the resource management laws established by the constitution.

    The 'industry' controls every aspect of the public process. Until we put the process back in the control of the public non-commercial interest in our fish and game all the adminstrative mgmt, fund raising, science, predator control type issues will continue to be undermined by the special interests of the commercial sport fishing and commercial hunting industries.

    IMO the fundamental issue of who is controlling the process and why this is happening is the single most important issue to solving all the other important issues.

    Quote Originally Posted by bushrat View Post
    I think there are times when what you post tends to make all guides look bad, or alludes that.
    Industry BAD....GUIDES not BAD.

    Quote Originally Posted by bushrat View Post
    And there are times I try to correct that perception.
    The way the industry is permitted to operate and manipulate the public process makes all guides look bad...the only way you are going to correct that perception is to come out strong against the industry practices you know are hurting every aspect of resource managment. I know you know what those issues are.

    Quote Originally Posted by bushrat View Post
    And it's ironic I suppose cuz it turns out you are Don Duncan, a master guide (I just read your good op-ed in the Newsminer, and your comments sent in)!
    Nope, AVALANCHE is NOT Don Duncan.



  20. #20
    Member Vince's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlaskaTrueAdventure View Post
    AVALANCHE...I sat through both days of the APHA meeting Fri and Sat. If you were there, you never objected to anything anybody said. And I never heard Bob F. or anybody else talk about any $3000.00 nonresident moose tags you mentioned in a prior post. I just read through the Wildlife Conservation Reform Proposal Talking Points paper, dated 11-12-08. I do not see any mention of $3000.00 nonresident moose tags. And the points discussed in the talking points paper, discussed on 12-06-08 at the APHA meeting, mostly make great sence to this hunter-guide. And again, if you were at the meeting it would have been an appropriate time for you to voice your beliefs and objections.
    If you had been there and voiced your objections, I'm sure I would have remembered. And if you had, you might have initiated some great and necessary discussions. But you were not there.
    Perhaps you will attend the BGCSB meeting on Tue, Wed, and Thursday at the Egan Center. This would be another great venue for you to express your viewpoints concerning the big game commercial services provided in Alaska.
    I just read through the talking points paper a 2nd time today. Based on the opinions you have expressed many times in your prior forum posts, I think you would probably agree with the vast majority of this APHA document.

    Dennis
    AK TAGS
    Hey Dennis, I am learning alot of this as we go along this year so please bear with me...

    Is this "talking points" a regularly published paper is it online? if not how do i get a hold of it..

    Thanks

    Vince
    "If you are on a continuous search to be offended, you will always find what you are looking for; even when it isn't there."

    meet on face book here

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