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Thread: No flying (draft)

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    Default No flying (draft)

    2. What is the problem you would like the Board to address?

    The sheep population in Alaska is at an all time low. Before we mandate a draw statewide for sheep, I think we should try other means to increase our sheep population. I believe aircraft should only be used to transport hunters to/from the field during sheep hunting season. During hunting season aircraft are being used by ‘all users groups” to assist them in making their hunt easier and more successful.

    Here are several problems that may occur by allowing aircraft to fly into hunting areas during hunting season.

    1) Sheep are being harassed. I have had aircraft harass sheep that I was in the process of hunting. One time it was done on purpose, but other I am sure were just tourist taking a local flight seeing tour. Either case my hunting experience was diminished.

    2) It is unethical in my opinion to spot game via aircraft. Aircraft owners/users have an unfair advantage over those that don’t have access to an airplane.

    3) Sheep hunters currently in the field may have an advantage when an aircraft are flying. What happens when an airplane spots a sheep? They circle to get a better view. What does the hunter do when seeing this? They stop what they are doing and head to the area where the aircraft was circling. This could result in the hunter tagging a sheep he may not have seen.

    3. What will happen if this problem is not solved?

    More and more of our Alaskan recourse (Dall sheep) are being harvest by guided non-resident sheep hunters. I believe one of the major reasons behind this extremely high success rate is due to the fact that their guides are flying many hours looking for sheep prior to and during sheep season. The result of this advantage is one reason the Non-resident sheep hunters success rate is 80% or more and resident hunter’s success rate is below 20%.

    The population of sheep in both Units 13 and 14 are very low, I contribute this low population is due to the high success rate of non-resident hunters. Resident hunters are seeing our sheep hunting opportunities diminished each year due to this exceedingly high success rate. Many of our Game Management Unit has already gone to “draw only” and many more will in the near future if something is not done soon!

    If aircraft where unable to fly into these units, except for dropping of hunters, I believe you would see an increase in the population of sheep, due to the fact, success rates would be lower. High sheep number means more hunting opportunities for everyone, including us Alaskans.

    Game will continue to be harassed by these aircraft. Once these so called hunters leave the hunting area or areas, they have harassed more game then the animal they just harvested. Game that has been harassed are much harder, if not impossible, to hunt. This makes it harder for honest hardworking hunters to fill their tags.

    4. What solution do you prefer?

    For Sheep Hunts that occur in Units 13 and 14 - All airplane usage be restricted to only allow for the transportation of hunters to and from the field. I further suggest that this ban starts 5 days before hunting season and ends at midnight of the last day.

    Below is a rule that is currently being used in Nevada.

    A person shall not, for the purpose of hunting, locate or observe, or assist a person in locating or observing, any big game mammal in a management unit during the period beginning 48 hours before a big game hunting season opens until the close of the season in that management unit with the use of:


    a) An aircraft, including, without limitation, any device that is used for navigation of, or flight in, the air;
    b) A hot air balloon or any other device that is lighter than air;
    c) A satellite or any other device that orbits the earth and is equipped to produce images.

    5. Does your proposal address improving the quality of the resource harvested or products produced? If so, how?

    No, it does not improve the quality of the resource, but it will preserve the ethical standard of fair case that all of us should have while hunting.

    6. Solutions to difficult problems benefit some people and hurt others:
    A. who is likely to benefit if your solution is adopted?

    All sheep hunters that don’t use an airplane as a means to make their hunt easier. All current and future resident sheep hunters would benefit by having the success rates of the non-resident sheep hunters decrease. This means more sheep tags would become available for the draw. The sheep that are being harassed by all this airplane traffic. All sheep hunters both resident and non-resident would benefit if both of these units had more sheep in them. ADF&G would benefit greatly, if the Governor’s sheep tag would reach the $100,000 it once did, when the quality of the rams harvested where of trophy status.

    B. Who is likely to suffer if your solution is adopted?

    Guides may not be able to brag about having a 80% success rate on Dall sheep. All sheep hunters that are seeking an easier more successful hunt. Anyone that uses an airplane for sight seeing tours from Aug 10th - Sept 20th would have to sight see somewhere else. Taxidermist and butcher shops may suffer a little since less sheep would be harvested.

    7. List any other solutions you considered and why you rejected them.

    Ban all flying in Units 13 and 14 for sheep hunting until the sheep numbers recover. I have not rejected this solution; I just believe the one list above has a better chance of being implemented.

    Close Unit 14 to all sheep hunting for the next 5 years. Sheep numbers need to be increased to a point where we are offering a high quality and successful sheep hunts. This is another option that I would agree with and again I have not rejected it, but if you feel it makes more since then lets go with it.

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    for proper consideration. rather then setting which units may or may not use air craft legislative measures to push the ban state wide would make more sense. ethical it, is wrong to use an aircraft spotting system in any hunt.. on any species..
    "If you are on a continuous search to be offended, you will always find what you are looking for; even when it isn't there."

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    Quote Originally Posted by tv321 View Post
    The sheep population in Alaska is at an all time low.
    I agree sheep populations are stressed but I want to know why you don't think that repealing the non-resident must be guided regulation is not a better way to limit the effectiveness of the pilot-guide commercial hunting industry.


    Quote Originally Posted by tv321 View Post
    More and more of our Alaskan recourse (Dall sheep) are being harvest by guided non-resident sheep hunters. I believe one of the major reasons behind this extremely high success rate is due to the fact that their guides are flying many hours looking for sheep prior to and during sheep season. The result of this advantage is one reason the Non-resident sheep hunters success rate is 80% or more and resident hunter’s success rate is below 20%.
    Given the 80/20 success rate it would follow that if non-residents were not required to be guided there would be less harvest.

    Quote Originally Posted by tv321 View Post
    The population of sheep in both Units 13 and 14 are very low, I contribute this low population is due to the high success rate of non-resident hunters. Resident hunters are seeing our sheep hunting opportunities diminished each year due to this exceedingly high success rate. Many of our Game Management Unit has already gone to “draw only” and many more will in the near future if something is not done soon!
    13&14 are the first mystery concessions the guides are going after to include a non-resident allocation of tags.


    Quote Originally Posted by tv321 View Post
    Close Unit 14 to all sheep hunting for the next 5 years. Sheep numbers need to be increased to a point where we are offering a high quality and successful sheep hunts. This is another option that I would agree with and again I have not rejected it, but if you feel it makes more since then lets go with it.
    Closing any unit just pressurizes somewhere else.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Vince View Post
    for proper consideration. rather then setting which units may or may not use air craft legislative measures to push the ban state wide would make more sense. ethical it, is wrong to use an aircraft spotting system in any hunt.. on any species..
    True, but we are only allowed to make comments SE Alaska. Have to start somewhere.

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    Default some advice

    Troy, rather than comment on your draft proposals I'd like to offer some advice. Run these by the area biologists for those units and see what they think. Remember, ADFG biologists from those units have to go over every proposal and comment on them at the BOG meeting. In general, without ADFG support your proposal likely won't pass, but on proposals like this you will often get a 'no opinion' answer from ADFG. Still...pays to run it by them for advice and to find out what they think.

    I can sum up this proposal in one sentence: hopefully increase dall sheep population by decreasing guided hunter success rates.

    I don't suppose I have to tell you what some powerful orgs are gonna have to say about that <grin>.


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    Quote Originally Posted by AVALANCHE View Post
    I agree sheep populations are stressed but I want to know why you don't think that repealing the non-resident must be guided regulation is not a better way to limit the effectiveness of the pilot-guide commercial hunting industry.
    I agree that the requirement to have non-resident hunters be guided for bear/sheep/goat is BS!!!!!!!!!!! but we can not do anything about it via a proposal


    Quote Originally Posted by AVALANCHE View Post
    Given the 80/20 success rate it would follow that if non-residents were not required to be guided there would be less harvest.
    Yes, you would see the resident sheep hunters actually have better harvest number then the non resident hunters. The way it should be!


    Quote Originally Posted by AVALANCHE View Post
    13&14 are the first mystery concessions the guides are going after to include a non-resident allocation of tags.
    You are correct; the guides want a set # of tags for all draws. The Mat Valley AC has a proposal going out that limits non -resident hunters can take no more than 10% of the total tags. We are not guaranteeing them anything!

    Anchorage AC I believe is submitting a proposal that would allow a set # of tags for non residents. If you don’t like it then go to the meeting a voice your concerns.



    Quote Originally Posted by AVALANCHE View Post
    Closing any unit just pressurizes somewhere else.
    True, but we have to start somewhere. We are not doing statewide proposals this time, so it makes better since to try one small area and get it passed thru, then on the next statewide board we hit them with a statewide requirement.

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    the difference in regulation and statute is BOG writes regs for units.. legislators write statutes for law... you can work on both sides at once by contacting and setting a meeting with the rep, for house and senate in your district. find the ones who are into hunting etc. they will also help with the BOG propsals...

    I work with the office of Dem Kawasaki in FBKS and Re pub, Gutenberg for legal issues up here and their aides can flat tell you a lot on how to go about the measure.

    and they will help write it. a subject this large is sure to get legislative help.. as the same day fly and hunt is not a regulations but Alaska, state law...
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    Default A/C's don't exist just to make or comment on BOG proposals.

    Quote Originally Posted by tv321 View Post
    I agree that the requirement to have non-resident hunters be guided for bear/sheep/goat is BS!!!!!!!!!!! but we can not do anything about it via a proposal
    Can we get your a/c to take that position and write to all the other A/Cs; and encourage them to get on board. If we can do that then we will find a legislator to write the bill and change the law. We don't need the BOG to "ok" the initiative.

    Quote Originally Posted by tv321 View Post
    Anchorage AC I believe is submitting a proposal that would allow a set # of tags for non residents. If you don’t like it then go to the meeting a voice your concerns.
    Don't worry there are a few people watching what the Anchorage A/C-SFW leadership is up to.

    Quote Originally Posted by tv321 View Post
    True, but we have to start somewhere. We are not doing statewide proposals this time, so it makes better since to try one small area and get it passed thru, then on the next statewide board we hit them with a statewide requirement.
    My view is we have to stop somewhere with the 'limiting' of non-commercial resident hunters.

    When we close or limit an area by Proposals we have to think about some kind of protocol that accounts for the pressurizing of another area.

    Acknowledging that it happens but feeling forced to go ahead and propose limits and closures on your local area knowing your action pushes the pressure into some 'other' A/C's area will lead to a broader discussion which is great. I got some ideas on that if you are interested.

    I am glad you are aware, thinking and doing...I appreciate your efforts and thank you too!


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    Quote Originally Posted by AVALANCHE View Post
    Can we get your a/c to take that position and write to all the other A/Cs; and encourage them to get on board. If we can do that then we will find a legislator to write the bill and change the law. We don't need the BOG to "ok" the initiative.
    One of the problem you have is we have all user groups on these AC and yes a good number of them are guides. Why do you think they are on these AC. What we need is more people like you and I that are feed up with this chit and start making a stink!

    As you can tell by reading some of my proposals I am not that good of writer so I wouldn't count on me to write anything!


    Quote Originally Posted by AVALANCHE View Post
    I got some ideas on that if you are interested.
    Your ideas are always welcomed and yes I will work with you and anyone else that would like to see the residents of Alaska the top priority.

    The reason I posted these draft proposals is to recieve feedback and hopefully improve them.

  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by tv321 View Post
    As you can tell by reading some of my proposals I am not that good of writer so I wouldn't count on me to write anything!
    Your doing great man.

    Quote Originally Posted by tv321 View Post
    Your ideas are always welcomed and yes I will work with you and anyone else that would like to see the residents of Alaska the top priority.
    Actually we Residents are the top priority.....we just need to claim it.

    Keep up the good work.


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    Red face Guiding

    I think such a proposal is right on as the main thing wrong with guiding is the pressure for success and laws allow plane spotting. (I say guiding because the transporters have learned the laws and mostly are refusing such spotting as they used to provide, at least in my experience) Moose and sheep dont move much in the night so spotting them landing and shooting them the next day is just as effective as same day airborne. Also, sheep are smart and if shot at in a drainage will move. That makes it very hard for walking hunters to find them as they access areas that cannot be seen from below. However, plane spotting makes that a moot point and takes away their main defense and leads to easy success rates which is what is unethical about it!

    Guiding is a good way for locals to make a living off our state resources. Unfortunately, some guides and many assistants are from out of state and spend their money elsewhere paying NO local or state taxes on that money. We are giving away our resource which is another thing wrong with guiding. But reducing plane spotting is a good start.
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    AGAIN...plane spotting IS listed in the guide regs under the ethics catagory, its a law that cannot be enforced which is why its under ethics and not law. this should be changed/enforced. More sting operations would help cure this problem in a hurry, but unfortunatly money this and money that. Start encouring more funds to be put to wildlife/guide enforcement and things would get better for you.

    I see all you barkin' up the wrong tree on this one. at least your barkin'...

    Guiding is not a good way to make a living, its a good way to make part of a living....

    plane spotting does not lead to easy success, it leads to better success and more motivated clients when they know theres a sheep at the end of the valley!!
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    does any one have a link to this "ethics" category? there are ethics and there is what you can get away with legaly... so what does it say they can and can NOT do?
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    i'll see if i can find it, i only have it in paper, never looked online....

    http://www.commerce.state.ak.us/occ/...CSStatutes.pdf

    take that link and scroll down to 12 AAC 75.340 Proffessional Ethics
    Scroll down to Field Craft Standards and read numbers 6,7,8,9 i couldn't highlight it so you'll have to read it, might find it all informative.
    Last edited by BRWNBR; 11-26-2008 at 16:19. Reason: found some info
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    Quote Originally Posted by BRWNBR View Post
    Guiding is not a good way to make a living, its a good way to make part of a living....
    For yourself, perhaps so. But I have many acquaintences that make their living off guiding. Sheep are very predictable and perhaps the easiest to spot animal from the air there is. They are an easy quarry with the assistance of a plane.
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    i'm gonna go against the grain on this one....i think alot is in the wording...outfitters make a living...guides TYPICALLY do not(which is why most have a spouse who works full time). A guide to me is someone whos on the ground poundin' it out with the client beside them. an outfitter is someone who signs the contracts, steers the plane and puts camps where he wants them. hence the term guide/outfitter license.

    Also, i'm gonna go with grizzlies as being the toughest to spot from the air, i've flown into valleys for sheep, not seeing a one, step outa the plane grab my binos and see 40-50. just cause they are white, don't mean they have a beacon on them. Grizz in my experience are the ones that are tougher to see from the air. but like say, 10 different people can have 10 different opinions and all be right based off person experience.
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    Default "airplane sheep"

    Let me start off by clearly reporting that I am not a pilot and I do not own an airplane. I am a guide-outfitter and I do wish that I had made the sacrafices and investments earlier in life to fly a personally owned aircraft, but I didn't. Oh well.

    But...I do not see how the current law, not flying to spot game, is enforceable. Of course some flying guides and many resident pilot-hunters have spotted game from the air. This has been going on throughout the history of aircraft flight in Alaska. And many of us have cursed the sheep spotters and the "airplane-sheep" they harvest.

    I do not see how this law can be enforced because...pilots love to fly. If a case were to ever go to court, whats to stop a pilot from saying "I love to fly and thats is why I have an airplane and that is why I have flown my airplane 100 (or 200, or 300) days in the last year, and every year as long as I have had a pilots license. And that is why I was flying on the (game spotting) day in question. Yes, officer, I did see a sheep on that day. But the spotting of that sheep was simply incidental to my love of flying my airplane."

    I just do not see how it can be realistically enforced. Keep in mind that many past court cases involving fish & game violations, including same-day-airborne kills, have not resulted in a conviction even with multiple credible witnesses and a dead game animal and dated pictures as evidence.

    Like many of the concepts of fair-chase hunting, I feel that each flyer/hunter/guide-outfitter needs to incorporate the intent of this law into their own personal hunting ethics, but IMO the law remains unenforceable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BRWNBR View Post
    i'm gonna go against the grain on this one....i think alot is in the wording...outfitters make a living...guides TYPICALLY do not(which is why most have a spouse who works full time). A guide to me is someone whos on the ground poundin' it out with the client beside them. an outfitter is someone who signs the contracts, steers the plane and puts camps where he wants them. hence the term guide/outfitter license.

    Also, i'm gonna go with grizzlies as being the toughest to spot from the air, i've flown into valleys for sheep, not seeing a one, step outa the plane grab my binos and see 40-50. just cause they are white, don't mean they have a beacon on them. Grizz in my experience are the ones that are tougher to see from the air. but like say, 10 different people can have 10 different opinions and all be right based off person experience.
    To a certain extent I agree with ya.

    For sure the Big Game Commercial Services regulations are a word game. The intent of the 'game' is to disadvantage everyone else in favor of the industries special interests.

    Guide-outfitter license is an 'invention' that combined business with an occupation. It took the BGCSB years of amending the regulations and they still don't have it right....because it is not legal to COMBINE the outfitting business with the occupational licensing of guides.

    It was guide and outfitter license....then it was guide/outfitter license, then it was guide-outfitter license {or what ever the version is today} and it's still not legal for a special interest group to carve out an economic advantage through this type of regulation process that discriminates.

    The rule was made by a special interest industry group for no other reason than to establish an economic advantage over all others; including the non-commercial hunters, if NOT ESPECIALLY the non-commercial hunters.

    Economic interference and economic discrimination is against Federal law; for good reason. The big game commercial hunting industry is accountable to comply with all federal law. This will be proven to the non-believers within in the next couple of years.

    Outfitting is a business just like air-taxi's are a business. A person does not have to be even a private pilot to own and operate an air-taxi.

    A person by FEDERAL law is not 'required' to be a guide to 'own' and operate an outfitting business.

    In fact....a person can be [and PLENTY people are] in the 'outfitting' business for ALL OTHER outdoor activities in Alaska....except hunting.

    "Outfitting" joe blow citizen for a back packing, fishing, rafting, mountain climbing trip ect. IS NO is different.....except for the special interest the hunting industry has carved out.

    That 'special interest' wont hold up when the question of 'law' is presented.

    When the average non-commercial hunter realizes what this "special interest" is costing them...there is just not going to be enough political will to sustain the 'special interest' commercial hunting industry we have in Alaska today.


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    Red face

    Well I agree, its different for different species. We used to moose hunt by plane spotting in the Interior and while I dont do it anymore, it doesnt bother me as moose are scattered all over Alaska. And spotting caribou from planes does increase your success, but it helps transporters drop you in productive areas so it doesnt worry me either. I know sheep hunters are helped tremendously by plane spotting to avoid wasted hiking and hunts, but it really decreases our sheep hunting opportunities as many guides are forced to use spotting to keep up with the trophies and success rates of guides who use it. With the final straw of FandG citing overharvest of full curl rams hurting populations in 13 and 14 and changing them to a restrictive draw harvest we need to become more restrictive in our harvest regulations to preserve hunting opportunity. Restricting plane spotting would be helpful in more restrictive harvest while preserving opportunity. I dont think enforcing spotting would be a problem. All of the guides I have heard of who plane spot would follow any regulations placed on them in regard to their pursuit of game. Incidental spotting on fly ins and word of mouth from transporters would still occur but not the obvious flights before and during hunts that they now use.
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    "All of the guides I have heard of who plane spot would follow any regulations placed on them in regard to their pursuit of game."

    Man i sure doubt it. When you've got a success rate to keep up to keep bookings coming in, and you've got 3-8 guides on the ground with three hunters each lined up for the season, they'll be in the plane...garunteeeeD. No one would ever be able to prove your looking for a sheep, you could be just "checking out a bear", "looken' over some caribou", thought you saw an "shed" you'll go pick up, "looking at a possible landing strip", saw some "ewes". ect ect, i see this as unenforcable, its a honesty deal, which i'm guessing is why its placed under the "ethics" catagory and not actually posted as being ILLEGAL.
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