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Thread: same day airborne proposal (draft)

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    Default same day airborne proposal (draft)

    2. What is the problem you would like the Board to address?

    The “Same day airborne” rule states “It is against the law to hunt or help someone else take big game until 3:00am the day following the day you have flown”. I believe this rule is weak and need to be changed.
    I believe the original intent of this rule was to prevent hunters from searching for an animal from the air, land close to it and kill it? If so, this rule is not working! Some hunters are using aircraft late in the evening to spot game, land and shot them at 3am. This in not fair to the game they hunt nor to other hunters. I find this type of hunting unethical!

    3. What will happen if this problem is not solved?

    This is not fair chase and those with aircraft will continue to use this loophole to their advantage (results in higher success rate) over those that don’t have or choose not to use aircraft in this manner. In areas where a tag is required, this high harvest success rate could reduce the number of available tags for next years permit draw.

    Game will continue to be harassed by these aircraft. Once these so called hunters leave the hunting area or areas, they may have harassed more game then the ones they harvested. Game that has been harassed are much harder, if not impossible, to hunt. This makes it harder for honest hardworking hunters fill their tags.

    4. What solution do you prefer?

    I would like to change our current rule to read as follows:

    “It is against the law to hunt or help someone else take big game [REPLACE (until 3:00am the day), WITH (24 hours)] following the day you have flown”.

    5. Does your proposal address improving the quality of the resource harvested or products produced? If so, how?

    No, it does not improve the quality of the resource, but it will preserve the ethical standard of fair case that all of us should have while hunting.

    6. Solutions to difficult problems benefit some people and hurt others:

    A. who is likely to benefit if your solution is adopted?

    All hunters except (see below). All game that is being harassed by aircraft.

    B. Who is likely to suffer if your solution is adopted?

    Those that enjoy using this loophole will find that their harvest success rate may drop. All hunters that are transported via aircraft will have to wait 24 hours before pulling the trigger.

    7. List any other solutions you considered and why you rejected them.

    • Having a 48 hour wait. I personally prefer this choice but believe the 24hrs is more likely to be implemented.

    • Allow same day airborne hunting as long as hunters are 5 miles from the drop off point. I believe this would be hard to enforce.

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    5. Does your proposal address improving the quality of the resource harvested or products produced? If so, how?

    No, it does not improve the quality of the resource, but it will preserve the ethical standard of fair case that all of us should have while hunting.

    there is something missing here in each of these post... and this subject
    i understand that it may not improve the quality of the meat harvested how ever less harassment by air craft would in fact improve the quality of the game being harvested by reducing the stress level of hunted game, sheep herd, loss of life to game from spooking etc.... there is a big hole here... any other's with ideas?


    as i stated on the youth hunt... to be taken seriously, you need a professional resume. the commercial hunters have one. base it on fact and with good sound arguments that are difficult to break, and pick apart..with out a personal bias.
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    I guess the current reg is fair, a few times I've landed on a road, walked 10 miles to set up camp and wonder why the heck I can't shoot something that day. Other times I've landed then the next day motored a Zodiac more than 20 miles. If you wanted me to wait 24 hours from landing it is just another day of sitting around, in order to keep me scent and presence down. I think it would be better written to stated something like you can not use aircraft to locate animals from the air and then target them until. Hard to enforce anyway I imagine.

    Where it is now is ok in my opinion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AKFishOn View Post
    I guess the current reg is fair, a few times I've landed on a road, walked 10 miles to set up camp and wonder why the heck I can't shoot something that day. Other times I've landed then the next day motored a Zodiac more than 20 miles. If you wanted me to wait 24 hours from landing it is just another day of sitting around, in order to keep me scent and presence down. I think it would be better written to stated something like you can not use aircraft to locate animals from the air and then target them until. Hard to enforce anyway I imagine.

    Where it is now is ok in my opinion.
    actually it is not hard to enforce. this year i was asked by both the F&G bio and Trooper to report on plane activity around my camp. there are a few there that use planes to spot until late eve. tail #s are all thats needed. and a few photos. if handy.
    "If you are on a continuous search to be offended, you will always find what you are looking for; even when it isn't there."

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    Sorry I'm primarily a bear hunter when it comes to fly ins and most often I do not see another hunter, person, or plane until I'm picked up. I guess I never really have thought of the enforcement of it, several times I've seen bear later the drop off day. We've also spotted bear from the plane but I normally don't call that an unfair spotting of game as the bear we have spotted then shot the next day were eating fish. Yes there were bear in the same area we spotted them the day before from the plane but seeing them from the plane only confirmed me thoughts that bear like to eat fish...go figure. I was once watching a video which seemed that they were using the plane to their advantage, they were hunting near Cordova with Air boats, they would fly all around the night before then the next day have coordinates to when the moose were held up. Seemed unfair but in the that country the Air boat really seemed to be a large advantage also. I do wish there was some consideration into flying and shooting the same day if during your flight in it was not used to spot game. Say for example you fly in for spring bear at 7AM, you then head 10 miles down the coast in a raft and walk another 2 miles inland and at around dark you see a bear. There has to be a happy medium to the regulation and I think we are there now works as it can be explained, if you made it 24 hours, who is the one marking the time on the clock if on the same hunt you shoot one at 7:01 AM on the second day and get turned in, that is hard to enforce, and if for example you make it 48 hours after flying in who is counting that clock, and if you have several folks flying in on different days who is couting who is getting on and off the plane, the guy in the camp in the area. Whew, one can say it might be easy to enforce now but it all depends on the situation and each one is different, if you try to tie it to a time I'm not sure how to enforce that, heck why don't we make each hunter hire an ADF&G guy to go with them so they can apply to the regs. I will keep hunting either way and I follow the regs religiously but my vote is for them to remain as they are but there are certaintly others in different situations where it may need review, maybe by species and GMU as the reg are currently under 100 pages.
    Last edited by AKFishOn; 11-23-2008 at 19:24. Reason: spelling

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    not to steal the line of thought here...

    but.. the issue is people, groups, guides, and large camps using planes as spotters

    there is a HUGE camp several miles down river from me.. we have a plane flying 3-4 hours in the am and eve each...
    this year F&G started watching it.

    last year there were 20+ guys. each with an uncle or bro inlaw.... they haul out several moose, caribou, sheep and bears each year...

    i have never met them or the camp owners...

    but i am getting an idea as to whats up..

    Vince
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    By the way if I can get the time off work I do intent to fly an area to scout for sheep about a week prior to walking in to a walk in only area. I guess this early prior to hunting is not of disput but if the opportunity to fly it the day prior was there I'd like to do that too. You can't land anywhere near close to where I've been told the sheep are and it is walk in only, but I shouldn't have to worry about that as I should win the DCU sheep hunt anyway (hee...hee).

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    Here is a proposal you could think about too.

    All guides who fly guided sheep hunting clients under a guide outfitter license in unit 13 and 14 must be:

    • the contracted guide
    • the pilot
    • and the person guiding the client

    2. What is the problem you would like the Board to address?

    A reasonable protocol must be implemented that begins to limit the impact of the commercial hunting industry on sheep populations and non-commercial hunters.

    From compliance with Federal Aviation Regulations to favorite-time/location conflicts between the special interest of the commercial hunting industry and non-commercial hunters.....


    3. What will happen if this problem is not solved?

    It is no secret Alaska's commercial hunting industry regulations as implemented are affecting resource populations, resource management, predator-prey balance and non-commercial hunters opportunity.

    With more [annual] limits and restrictions on non-commercial hunters and no standing down of the special interest of the commercial hunting industry in any of the units where residents are being limited have brought this problem to the front burner.

    This problem of not limiting commercial hunting special interest when residents are forced to tolerate limits, draws, closed areas and other restrictions is impossible not to address.

    This proposal provides the board the opportunity to act on behalf of the non-commercial interest; the true public interest in game resources.

    In making this proposal for unit 13 and 14 we are hopeful the BOG will establish the protocol that begins to show how the BOG intends to begin to implement limiting protocols that counter the effect the commercial hunting industry has on harvestable big game populations and non-commercial opportunity.

    4. What solution do you prefer?

    We prefer the BOG recommend this proposal for implementation in unit 13 & 14 to include all guided hunts.

    yada yada .....


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    Quote Originally Posted by AKFishOn View Post
    By the way if I can get the time off work I do intent to fly an area to scout for sheep about a week prior to walking in to a walk in only area. I guess this early prior to hunting is not of disput but if the opportunity to fly it the day prior was there I'd like to do that too. You can't land anywhere near close to where I've been told the sheep are and it is walk in only, but I shouldn't have to worry about that as I should win the DCU sheep hunt anyway (hee...hee).
    I agree with being able to fly your hunting area before hunting season, but airplane traffic should be held to the min during season. I have had an airplane on 2 different sheep hunts one on purpose and the other I don't think so, scare the sheep.

    I have also talked with people who have used the circling aircraft to harvest sheep they would not have found.

    I have another proposal working on this topic.

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    I like your thinking! keep it coming!

    Quote Originally Posted by AVALANCHE View Post
    Here is a proposal you could think about too.

    All guides who fly guided sheep hunting clients under a guide outfitter license in unit 13 and 14 must be:

    • the contracted guide
    • the pilot
    • and the person guiding the client

    2. What is the problem you would like the Board to address?

    A reasonable protocol must be implemented that begins to limit the impact of the commercial hunting industry on sheep populations and non-commercial hunters.

    From compliance with Federal Aviation Regulations to favorite-time/location conflicts between the special interest of the commercial hunting industry and non-commercial hunters.....


    3. What will happen if this problem is not solved?

    It is no secret Alaska's commercial hunting industry regulations as implemented are affecting resource populations, resource management, predator-prey balance and non-commercial hunters opportunity.

    With more [annual] limits and restrictions on non-commercial hunters and no standing down of the special interest of the commercial hunting industry in any of the units where residents are being limited have brought this problem to the front burner.

    This problem of not limiting commercial hunting special interest when residents are forced to tolerate limits, draws, closed areas and other restrictions is impossible not to address.

    This proposal provides the board the opportunity to act on behalf of the non-commercial interest; the true public interest in game resources.

    In making this proposal for unit 13 and 14 we are hopeful the BOG will establish the protocol that begins to show how the BOG intends to begin to implement limiting protocols that counter the effect the commercial hunting industry has on harvestable big game populations and non-commercial opportunity.

    4. What solution do you prefer?

    We prefer the BOG recommend this proposal for implementation in unit 13 & 14 to include all guided hunts.

    yada yada .....

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    Default Changed it to 12 hours

    I just changed my proposal. I replaced the 3am with Noon.

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    Red face plane spotting

    Why not adopt this one?

    Below is a rule that is currently being used in Nevada.

    A person shall not, for the purpose of hunting, locate or observe, or assist a person in locating or observing, any big game mammal in a management unit during the period beginning 48 hours before a big game hunting season opens until the close of the season in that management unit with the use of:


    a) An aircraft, including, without limitation, any device that is used for navigation of, or flight in, the air;
    b) A hot air balloon or any other device that is lighter than air;
    c) A satellite or any other device that orbits the earth and is equipped to produce images.
    “I come home with an honestly earned feeling that something good has taken place. It makes no difference whether I got anything, it has to do with how the day was spent. “ Fred Bear

  13. #13

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    It's those that have and those that don't. I almost can see it for head hunters but give me a break. Why not include vehicals under 1000lbs too. Lets sit on our nut sacks for another day. I am after the meat and don't want to be stuck for another day or so because the weather closed in. Why don't you buy a plane and quit drumming up ways to get your book animal.

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    Leave it alone it works just fine.
    Tim

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    Default Boats

    In the south east people cruise the beaches in big boat then take zodiacs to shot the bears, there is no difference. Oh there is a difference you can pull a boat right up next to the bears and shot them. Lets ban boats or put a 6 hour time limit on hunting from exiting boats.

    Terry

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    Default 4 wheelers

    Lets ban 4 wheelers, where lazy fat people ride their wheelers miles from where they spot, get off shot the animal, and clean it with use of a winch, throw it in the trailer and go back to camp and get drunk. Would held game populations around Delta.

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    Boats and Planes should be used for TRANSPORT. IT is against the law to shoot out of a boat while it is moving or under power. a boat does not give the aerial advantage. that guide camps are using to spot game for the clients.

    rather then criticize a person for attempting to make an effort. because it may or may not fit your immediate needs. add some constructive advice.

    every season. people rally against the system.. but few are willing to put pen to paper and help to make some changes.

    most Alaskan pilot/hunters. land and then go hunting... these are not the issue here.. go buy a plane sounds great advice.. what about the ones that circle you for several hours each day chases your game off. and runs from camp to camp in the afternoon...

    last fall there were several threads on sheep hunter complaining of the same thing.

    moose camps are 80-95% successful? how is this routinely possible by any hunting standard. the success rate of resident and NON resident hunters has no comparison by Hunter numbers. the NON resident Guided hunters have the advantage. would any one like to guess where a lot of it it?

    take a look at TV's Props and read them for how could they be better. People are afraid of Change. thats for sure... how ever would you feel better if you were part of it by making educated decisions rather then seat of the pants reactions?
    "If you are on a continuous search to be offended, you will always find what you are looking for; even when it isn't there."

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    I've done a number of fly ins for caribou and seen them in the area before landing. Those animals are not there the next day. Penalizing me 24 hours from the time we land is a waste of a day. Even until noon is a waste of the morning. Moose also travel during the night and wmay not be in the same area. Plus you have the problem of proving what time you actually landed, etc. Leave it alone and enforce what is there.

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    Default Vince

    Whats the difference between, beaching a boat shooting a bear and landing and waiting hours to shoot a moose? Have you checked the 95% success rate for boat based bear hunts. The rules are fine and clear, we all know the problem is peoples moral values, and the commericalization of our natural resources. And if you do your research, you will know that its the guide board, big time commerical users (ask Brown bear) that has basically self regulating and governing provisions already built into the laws. These are what everyone needs to come together against to overcome. Take for instance one guide had 14 assist guides, how many do you think he oversaw in the field. Avalanche is spot on. Only thing changing the current rules are going to do is hurt the average guy. You cant tell me that AK F&G and our Troopers don't know what is happening. We just need enforcement for the current rules.

    Terry

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill S. View Post
    I've done a number of fly ins for caribou and seen them in the area before landing. Those animals are not there the next day......
    Conversely, a bear on a kill might stick around for days. So what will this "ethical hunter" do next? Ban killing bears when they're on kills?

    This is yet another example of somebody trying to fix something that isn't broken.

    .....Moose also travel during the night and wmay not be in the same area......
    It's a common tactic to spot moose in the evening when they start getting active, swoop low and get a GPS mark, then walk in the next day using the GPS to guide you right to where the moose was several hours before. The odds are extremely high that he's still within a quarter mile of where he was seen the evening before.

    So what's this "ethical hunter" going to do? Ban the use of GPS's while hunting?

    .....Leave it alone and enforce what is there.
    I agree, but it's also painfully clear that the "fix it" folks, who consider themselves above everybody else and who think they have all the answers (and who mostly are just trying to make it more difficult for "the other guy" in order to save the resource for themselves), aren't going to go away.

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