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Thread: new experience

  1. #1

    Question new experience

    For the first time in all the different loads for a lot of different firearms, I've never had this happen. I received my powder today for my Win 71, 348, and had some time to load and shoot a few rounds, just for kicks (really). I started with the suggested (Hodgon's) minimum load and loaded three, and then went up one grain and loaded three more. The first three were fine for pressure and the second three was starting to show a little pressure. So then I loaded up three more that were two grains from minimum and shot the first one...wow, kicked like heck and flattened the primer, so definitely too hot. In all my life I've never seen this happen with minimim loads. Hit pressure so soon. I'm going to chronograph these, cause I can't accept these as being minimum. It was aways from max...can't imagine trying them...which I WON'T!!!! Any thoughts?
    If you like getting kicked by a mule...then you'll "love" shooting my .458.

  2. #2
    Member Alangaq's Avatar
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    Did you use the EXACT components called out in the load book? You didn’t accidentally substitute magnum primers for standard or a different brand of brass?

    Are you sure you got the OAL correct and didn’t seat the bullets too deep?

    Those are the three biggies that I have messed up at one time or another……..
    “You’ve gotten soft. You’re like one of those police dogs who’s released in to the wild and gets eaten by a deer or something.” Bill McNeal of News Radio

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    I have not loaded for this caliber, so I have no first hand experience. Strictly guessing...

    I'm wondering about bullet seating depth. Maybe the bullets were seated too long and jamming into the lands when chambered, which could cause excessive pressure. Did you measure the distance to the lands for these bullets with this rifle?

    Second guess, are you using the recommended primer?

    Third guess, find a second source to cross reference the load range for the powder and bullet that you're using.

    Last guess, is your powder load data matched to the specific bullet that you are using?

    Anyway, that's all I have off the top of my head. Good luck with it, and let us know what you discover.

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    Member Alangaq's Avatar
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    Default I wonder.....

    Hey……….. I noticed in your other post that you were waiting on some H4350. The load you used doesn’t call for IMR4350 does it? I have found these two powders to be very close in burn rate, but not close enough for a grain for grain substitution.

    Just a thought.
    “You’ve gotten soft. You’re like one of those police dogs who’s released in to the wild and gets eaten by a deer or something.” Bill McNeal of News Radio

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    Member Darreld Walton's Avatar
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    Default Just a thought...

    But, gotta ask if you're loading through the magazine, and is it possible that the bullet has slipped deeper into the neck, reducing capacity and boosting pressure? Again, an idle thought from an idle fellow.....

  6. #6
    New member George's Avatar
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    Default 348 pressure

    Maydog,
    Since my little square thingy is still black not green don't know if you can trust anything I say or post

    I have four different Win 71 originals and load for and shoot all of them. In a nutshell I've found that the Hornady data and some of the older Lyman data is on the "hot" side for this cartridge. If you are shooting the Hornady 200 gr FP jacketed bullet you should be lightly crimped in the crimp groove. If that is done correctly then I doubt the bullet is being pushed deeper into the case when feeding causing the higher than expected pressure signs. There is a difference between H4350 and IMR4350 but it shouldn't be an issue at or near starting load levels. My instinct is that you are finding out about some published data and/or your chamber is on the minimum spec side. While the 71/86 action is a strong one it is not a Mauser type bolt action.... so you are smart not to try to push the envelope.

    My go to powder for the jacketed bullet loads in the 348 is IMR 4320. I have found that I start seeing the first signs of too much pressure a FULL 7 GRAINS under the max listed in the Hornady manual. What you are seeing may be normal or at least similar to what I've found in the Hornady 348 data for the 71.

    For cast bullets namely the 230 GC my go to powder is 4895 (H, IMR or milsurp doesn't seem to matter). With the cast loads I'm well below listed max charges anyway so don't pay too much attention because the pressures are low.

    In both types of loads my emphasis has been on accuracy. If I can get 2100fps out of the jacketed bullets with top accuracy I'm happy. If I need more horsepower I go to a large bolt gun.

  7. #7

    Talking I made it back

    Sorry it took a few days to answer some of your questions, but just got back from buffalo shooting. Had a good trip and put five buff in the freezers.
    Now back to my question. I used a Hodgon manual, H4350 powder and bullets are properly crimped to the correct overall length. No magnum primers...I don't use them so I have none. George might be right about minimums. It seems that an old Hornady manual is real close to what my "max" really is, but I sure do wonder why the Hodgon manual (with H4350)recommended max is so far from my results. I guess my results are exactly why one should start at minimum.
    If you like getting kicked by a mule...then you'll "love" shooting my .458.

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    This idea maybe way off base but, how clean is the barrel? Might there be lead build up in the groves and throat increasing pressures. I know it is hard to see the throat end of the barrel on these it might be worth pulling the bolt and having a look.

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maydog View Post
    Sorry it took a few days to answer some of your questions, but just got back from buffalo shooting. Had a good trip and put five buff in the freezers.
    Now back to my question. I used a Hodgon manual, H4350 powder and bullets are properly crimped to the correct overall length. No magnum primers...I don't use them so I have none. George might be right about minimums. It seems that an old Hornady manual is real close to what my "max" really is, but I sure do wonder why the Hodgon manual (with H4350)recommended max is so far from my results. I guess my results are exactly why one should start at minimum.
    Could be that the lots of powder used in the old manual were significantly different than the ones available today. I'd go to the Hodgdon site and compare their recommended loads using today's powders with what you see in the manual.

    I'm assuming you trued and chamfered the necks on your new brass before loading? Here's a test for you: Take your fired cases and try to drop a bullet down into them. If they hang up on the neck rather than dropping freely into the case, you've got something going on there. Could be due to lack of chamfer and a fairly tight neck in the chamber, but it could also be due to cases that are too long. I've got a bunch of old Remington cases, and they are significantly more uniform than a batch of Winchester cases I had.

  10. #10
    New member George's Avatar
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    Default pressures signs

    Yes,
    Could be a lot of things. As Bb said check the case length. Minimum chamber length along with stretched or long case will crimp bullet in throat and raise pressure. Same with minimum chamber specs.

    One thing about the 348 is the large amount of case body taper. That in turn can exaggerate the "signs" of pressure with increased bolt thrust compared to straighter bodied cases at same pressure. Without pressure testing equipment no way to tell which it is.... real pressure or exaggerated pressure "signs". The 71 ejector is large and accounts for a fairly large surface area of the bolt face. Increased bolt thrust (head thrust?) can leave an unusual imprint on the base. Whether that indicates too high pressure or just an artifact of the ejector and body taper.... hard to tell without the pressure equipment so always best to err on side of caution.

    Another method of indirect checking of pressure is head diameter. Given the design of the case plus the slightly lower operating pressures for lever guns I don't know if that would be of much use. The chronograph may be the best tool to help gauge what is going on. When I checked mine I was happy getting about 2100 fps with the 250 gr. Hawk and about 2225-50 fps with the 200 gr. Hornady with best accuracy and comfortable pressure- or at least reasonable pressure "signs". The current Hornady data shows the 200 gr. JFP topping out at 2500 fps. whew... I never felt comfortable going there.
    Good luck

  11. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by George View Post
    One thing about the 348 is the large amount of case body taper. That in turn can exaggerate the "signs" of pressure with increased bolt thrust compared to straighter bodied cases at same pressure. Without pressure testing equipment no way to tell which it is.... real pressure or exaggerated pressure "signs". The 71 ejector is large and accounts for a fairly large surface area of the bolt face. Increased bolt thrust (head thrust?) can leave an unusual imprint on the base. Whether that indicates too high pressure or just an artifact of the ejector and body taper.... hard to tell without the pressure equipment so always best to err on side of caution.
    That brings up another important consideration. With lots of body taper, especially as loads heat up, you want to be a real nitpicker about a clean chamber, and especially about getting any oils or case sizing lubes off the cases. Oil or lube between the case and the chamber walls add dramatically to bolt thrust. The cases simply can't grab onto the chamber walls as they should during a firing cycle.

  12. #12

    Talking perplexing at best

    I cleaned the bore and chamber (really didn't need it) and it was real good. I chamfered all the necks and used no lube because they were new cases and checked case length and they were right on. Bullet seated and crimped properly. I was using the most recent Hodgon data. George may be onto something. It is possible that the pressure signs may not be accurate because of the case design. I miked every case and there is only .0001 from the first fired and last (the one that showed the flattened primers), so just from that measurement, they are not max loaded, but flattened primers get my attention. I'll check out the neck tension on fired cases, because the chamber could be on tight side. I'm also going to just drop a loaded cartridge into the chambe and see if it goes in easy without hanging up. And I agree, the chronograph may also shed some light.
    If you like getting kicked by a mule...then you'll "love" shooting my .458.

  13. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maydog View Post
    I cleaned the bore and chamber (really didn't need it) and it was real good. I chamfered all the necks and used no lube because they were new cases and checked case length and they were right on. Bullet seated and crimped properly. I was using the most recent Hodgon data. George may be onto something. It is possible that the pressure signs may not be accurate because of the case design. I miked every case and there is only .0001 from the first fired and last (the one that showed the flattened primers), so just from that measurement, they are not max loaded, but flattened primers get my attention. I'll check out the neck tension on fired cases, because the chamber could be on tight side. I'm also going to just drop a loaded cartridge into the chambe and see if it goes in easy without hanging up. And I agree, the chronograph may also shed some light.
    Sounds like good steps all around. On a "miniature" scale, I find the little 25-35 to be demanding to load for because of the long body taper, thin case necks, and kinda sloppy nature of the 94 action. There's a fine line between suitable pressures and too much, and I haven't owned one yet that let me push "book" max even a little. The 71 is a much tighter action than the 94, but as you suspect, case design has to be taken into consideration.

  14. #14

    Talking

    Quote Originally Posted by BrownBear View Post
    Sounds like good steps all around. On a "miniature" scale, I find the little 25-35 to be demanding to load for because of the long body taper, thin case necks, and kinda sloppy nature of the 94 action. There's a fine line between suitable pressures and too much, and I haven't owned one yet that let me push "book" max even a little. The 71 is a much tighter action than the 94, but as you suspect, case design has to be taken into consideration.
    I think we're on to something here...I've never loaded for a tapered case like this one before. I have a 30-30 but don't load for it cause I don't use it much. This all makes sense and may explain it. I don't plan or need hot loads, but I'd like to take advantage as much as I safely can with this great cartridge...like it'd be nice to at least be close to factory ammo, not 2-300 fps slower. I still need to do the chambering thing and chrono. Just eliminate the possibilities one at a time. Makes life interesting, ay?
    If you like getting kicked by a mule...then you'll "love" shooting my .458.

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