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Thread: lowest recoiling big bore

  1. #1

    Default lowest recoiling big bore

    hey, what's the lowest recoiling big bore? I thought I heard somewhere that the 458 Win kicks less than the 416 rigby or rem mag, but that the 416 Taylor kicks less than them all. Is that true?
    Thanks!

  2. #2

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    If you google up some reloading data you can compare the amounts of powder that these ctgs use with the same bullet weights. The more powder, the greater the recoil if the firearms discharging the cartridges weigh the same. You could reload a .458 to moderate levels and not get too much abuse, using a 300 or 350 grain bullet.

    The Marlin guide guns in .45/70 and 450 Marlin are pretty light in the recoil dept, chiefly because they are ported. If you install a muzzle break on a heavy rifle it pretty well tames the recoil. I shot a .300/378 once and thought the recoil was lighter than a standard .30-06. The standard .378 burning 115 grains of powder has the reputation as the hardest kicking cartridge there is.

    If you put a good aftermarket recoil pad on your stock, buy a muzzlebreak and then handload your ammunition; you should be all set.

  3. #3

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    does case shape have anything to do with it? or is powder-amount really THE determiner of recoil?

  4. #4
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    Smile The Recoil Determinator...

    Go_North,

    1. Bullet weight. Directly proportional.
    2. Exit velocity. Directly proportional.
    3. Powder charge. Directly proportional.
    4. Weight of gun. Inversely proportional.
    5. Bore diameter. Inversely proportional.

    Thats five.

    Was that your questions?

    Good shootin'.

    Murphy
    Is there nothing so sacred on this earth that you aren't willing to kill or die for?



  5. #5
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    Default variables

    Case shape and powder quantity are relevant primarily in that they impact how much hot gas or, potentially, uncombusted powder comes flying out the muzzle.

    The two rules that matter here are that Force=Mass*Acceleration and every action has an equal and opposite reaction.

    The more force straight out the barrel, the more force straight back at the shooter's shoulder. Heavier bullets at higher velocities kick harder. The heavier (more massive) the rifle, the lower the acceleration of the shooter's shoulder for the same force. That's why some rifles feel more like a push than a sharp kick.

    Muzzle brakes direct some of the hot gas to the sides. If it isn't going straight out the bore, the equal and opposite reaction isn't coming straight back at the shooter's shoulder. Brakes vent gas in two opposing directions (or 360 degrees) so the vented gas doesn't shove the muzzle sideways.

    I have read that uncombusted powder propelled out the muzzle generates greater recoil than the hot gasses from completely combusted powder - an effect similar to afterburners on a military jet. I don't know if that's true or if the 'blast' of that powder combusting in the open air just generates its own shockwave that we perceive as recoil. But then, I'm not sure that's an important distinction. They're both unpleasant.

    Wiser fellows than me will be able to comment on whether any of the big bores out there have a reputation for expelling extra powder in a 'standard' length barrel. I'm inclined to doubt it, and certainly a handloader would stop finding performance improvement from added powder before that happened.

    While just about any rifle with the barrel cut way down will have significant 'blast' when loaded with anything but the fastest burning powders, I suspect what Murphy describes as 'overbore' cartridges (30-378, f'rinstance) amplify the problem.

  6. #6
    Moderator Paul H's Avatar
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    Default

    Low recoil and big bores are somewhat mutually exclusive.

    Case shape has nothing to do with recoil. It is a factor of bullet weight, powder charge, and velocity.

    A big factor in fealt recoil is the shape of the stock, and the weight of the gun. A poorly designed stock in a lightweight gun can make for punishing recoil in a moderately powerful round, whereas a very powerful round can be quite tollerably in a properly designed gun.

    I've never heard anyone say a 458 win mag is milder than a 416, maybe the 416 Weatherby is worse, but certainly not the Rem mag or Rigby. The 458 win mag pushes a 500 gr bullet 2100 fps, the 416's a 400 gr 2400. While the 416's are faster, the extra 100 grs of bullet weight more than makes up for that.

    The real issue is, do you want to get a big bore, and if yes, how do you shoot it without it beating you up? I made that decision in the affirmative about 10 years ago and picked up a 458 Lott from a pawn shop in Anchorage. The stock was atrocious, the gun fairly light, but the price was right.

    Here's what I've found, if you want to shoot a big bore, then you can. A past mag recoil shield or equivalent for your shoulder is essential. Ideally you should work up from lighter bullet loads to full patch, I took the plunge and went directly to 500 gr loads. It must have knocked some brain cells loose, as I sold that first lott, had a 500 Jeffrey built, and a second 458 Lott.

    Do not shoot from a benchrest position, shoot standing with a rest under your forearm. Sling swivels should be mounted on the barrel, stock mounted will bite you. Big bore rifles should IMHO be 9# for a 40 caliber, 10# for a 45 caliber, and 10 1/2 to 11# for a 50 caliber.

    While the 45 calibers have more recoil than the 416's, the 45's have a much larger selection of bullets, and many that are very inexpspensive, and easy to come by. You can load a 458 win mag or lott down to 45 colt pistol levels, or on up to full patch. With Alaskan game, there is no need for the 500 gr bullets, a good 400 gr is more than enough for all Alaskan game, is flatter shooting, and milder on the shoulder.

  7. #7

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    Thanks for the help, guys!
    Now this is a bit off-topic but related... can you load 416 Taylor rounds into a gun chambered for 416 rigby? If not, what's the easiest way to come by a gun in 416 Taylor? I know it's based on 458 Win brass, so maybe convert a rifle chambered for that? (I've never built/customized a rifle before, and I know nothing about it, so I'm probably mistaken)
    Thanks

  8. #8
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    Red face 458 win mag

    I fired my friends ruger .458 win mag I think it was a 400 grn bullet.
    Was the largest rifle ive fired. I took aim leaned a little forward squeezed one off and kaboom. It kiked me so hard my jaw slammed shut and it shoved me a step backward. it was an eye opener. My 375hh with 275 grainers is about as much kick as I like to deal with. And I dont think a moose or a bear would know the difference between it and 458 and the like.

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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by go_north View Post
    Thanks for the help, guys!
    Now this is a bit off-topic but related... can you load 416 Taylor rounds into a gun chambered for 416 rigby? If not, what's the easiest way to come by a gun in 416 Taylor? I know it's based on 458 Win brass, so maybe convert a rifle chambered for that? (I've never built/customized a rifle before, and I know nothing about it, so I'm probably mistaken)
    Thanks

    No you cannot laod 416 Taylor in a 416 Rigby chambered gun. Well you can load it, but you cannot shoot it.

    Easiast way to get a 416 Taylor is to buy an old used Ruger Model 77 that was chamberd in 338 winny, 300 winny or 7mm remmy if you want a firearm with CRF. If CRF vs PF doesn't matter than you could get a Remmington 700 that was chambered in one of the above mentioned cartridges. Than it is just a matter of rebareling and maybe some feed ramp work. The feed rails should be ok already.

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    Thumbs down Yikes!

    [QUOTE=go_north;25259]Thanks for the help, guys!
    ... can you load 416 Taylor rounds into a gun chambered for 416 rigby?
    /QUOTE]

    Go_North,

    That's a scarry thought. The 416 Taylor is the 338 WM case necked up, or the 458 WM case necked down, to 416. The 416 Rigby case is twice the size. Longer and fatter than the Taylor. Go to a shop and just look at the Rigby ammo, it's huge. But it is far better to ask than just shoot.

    I fellow here in Fairbanks bought a CZ 416 Rigby rifle. Went to SW to get ammo. Some .....clerk there told him there was no such thing as a 416 Rigby caliber just a rifle company, the caliber is 416 Remington. So our unknowing friend bought the 416 Remington ammo. 416 Remington is the same diameter as the 416 Taylor just longer, but still much smaller than the 416 Rigby chamber. Well our new CZ owner, wanting to shoot the new gun went to the range and loaded the Rigby. After several shots, he noticed the cases hard to extract and returned to the shop where he had acquired the CZ, thinking something was wrong. The 416 Remington brass expanded to fit the Rigby chamber. What a sight. I wouldn't have thought it would even fit well enough to fire, but it did. The brass stayed together and so did the strong CZ. There is a sample of the brass for show and tell at Alaska Guns & Ammo in Fairbanks. I believe he got his money back from SW, plus other considerations. They are stamped on the barrel for a reason.

    Good shootin'.

    Murphy
    Is there nothing so sacred on this earth that you aren't willing to kill or die for?



  11. #11
    Moderator Paul H's Avatar
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    Default

    Unless you are a handloader, you should stay away from the Taylor, as you won't be finding ammo for it from your local gunshop. There are some small custom ammo makers that do load for it though.

    If you're going to the trouble of building a custom rifle, I'd opt for the 416 rem mag. It is a large enough case to easily achieve 400 gr @ 2400 fps (the Taylor falls a bit shy) and don't need the weight savings of a shorter action in a big bore! Then again, you can buy a CZ 416 Rigby for much less than having a 416 built, which will more than pay for the more expensive ammo.

  12. #12

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    Lightest kicking big bore? A friend's Encore rifle in 45 ACP. Okay, back to the question.

    For me the biggest differences of all are pretty basic- stock design and fit for the individual shooter, along with your hold and stance. They make huge differences in PERCEIVED recoil, to the point that my rifles might kick you more than me and visa versa, simply because I'm big and need a little more LOP. Scope a rifle incorrectly or shoot open sights on a rifle stocked for scope use, and you're gonna get whacked. Along with recoil reducing technology from pads to vents to stock inserts, they allow you to vastly manage/alter the effects of recoil. When everything is right for you, a gun can move you a whole lot without hurting.

  13. #13
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    Default

    My 1874 Sharps kicks less than any of these. Of course it weighs 13 pounds too. Jim

  14. #14

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    Hey, this info is great.
    Just wondering- couldn't a smaller case actually produce MORE recoil because it would take higher pressure levels to achieve such-and-such ballistics? Is pressure level a recoil factor? Or does bullet weight, bullet velocity, and powder load say it all?
    Also, would building a 416 Taylor from a 458 Win be any more involved than building it off some 338 Win? I ask only because I'm interested in the CZ Safari Mag.
    Thanks!

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    Default

    The CZ Safari mag is a real nice rifle and outstanding value. If recoil is an issue, try a .375 H&H. I spent a bit of time shooting one last summer and it wasn't that bad considering. This rifle went to the Zambezie valley for a Cape hunt.

    Set off the CZ Safari mag with a nice set of Talley detacheable mounts.

  16. #16
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    Thumbs up Not Pressure

    Quote Originally Posted by go_north View Post
    Is pressure level a recoil factor? Or does bullet weight, bullet velocity, and powder load say it all?
    go_north,

    Pressure is not.
    But you forget to mention rifle weight (mass, actually) in the second half.

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    Default

    I'd get a 45/70. With factory remington 405gr it is a real *****cat and you can load it up with good softpoints and heavy hard casts to do anything that the other big bores will do in the US.

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    Default

    You want less recoil? How about a 10 lb.+ 375 H&H?

  19. #19

    Default recoil

    The rule of thumb is the heavier the bullet at the same velocity the more the recoil provided the firearms weigh the same and they have same type stocks and other recoil reducing equipment
    A gun that generates 5000 FPE will kick 25% more than a similar gun that generates 4000FPE
    Now, the stock designs helps tremendously, so does a muzzle brake, mercury recoil reducer and high tech recoil pad.
    The worst recoiling gun I owned was an early 70's Rem 700 in 300 WM, it had a stock with a high cheek peace similar to the Weatrtherby. This design caused great muzzle jump which accelerated the velocity of the recoil since the enery was moving up and back away from the shooters mass, I restocked this gun and now it is a pleasure to shoot
    The weight of the gun is porpotionate to felt recoil because whatever action there is a reaction so a light gun will kick harder than a heavier gun all else being equal.

    Keep this in mind when you choose your gun, no matter how powerful the gun if you can't hit the spot you need to your defeating your pupose.

  20. #20

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    Bob,
    I'm thinking it must be more than just FPE. The 416 Rem, for instance, maches the Rigby's ballistics for less recoil...so the efficiency of powder-use must be a factor, right?

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