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Thread: canoe complaints

  1. #1
    Member akriverrat's Avatar
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    Default canoe complaints

    i am looking into getting rid of my jet boat and start using a freighter canoe mainly for backcountry moose hunting. ive thought the osagian was the best thing going and was unaware of the scott or norwest canoes until i started reading this canoe forum. so i am wondering what you guys own and what are the things you would change if you could. i am looking for something big enough to make one trip in and 1 trip out with moose and travel in some skinny water portaging if i have to.

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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by akriverrat View Post
    i am looking into getting rid of my jet boat and start using a freighter canoe mainly for backcountry moose hunting. ive thought the osagian was the best thing going and was unaware of the scott or norwest canoes until i started reading this canoe forum. so i am wondering what you guys own and what are the things you would change if you could. i am looking for something big enough to make one trip in and 1 trip out with moose and travel in some skinny water portaging if i have to.
    Well, I wouldn't be portaging my Scott. At 250 pounds the 21 foot Hudson Bay would be too much for me. However in the water it's a dream. The handling is outstanding, the hull stiff and strong and the transom is designed like it's suppose to be. An outstanding craft.

    I have some 300 pound capacity canoe wheels that will handle the Scott on well groomed portage trails. Have to remove the motor of course.

  3. #3
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    Default Why?

    Just curious, but, why would you want a canoe over your river boat?

  4. #4
    Member akriverrat's Avatar
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    Default price to run

    Quote Originally Posted by AlAlaska View Post
    Just curious, but, why would you want a canoe over your river boat?
    the boat i have now is running about $40.00 an hour to operate and i could actually get into alot more secluded areas with a canoe/kicker setup for moose hunting. its hard to get away from people when you have to stick to main channels. i am having a hard time justifying the payment all year long when i only use my boat half a dozen times a year. a trip to montegue these days are running about a $700.00 bill from whittier with the setup i have, it is cheaper to charter.

  5. #5
    Moderator Alaskacanoe's Avatar
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    Default Expenses

    The costs of using larger boats is expotential...
    The $700.00 you suggest is just the cost of that trip alone...
    If you add the insurance, wear and tear on your vehicle and trailer it goes even higher.. but... we all work so we can enjoy the finer things in life,, and it sounds like you have one of those really nice boats.
    It seems like Money fixes lots of things in life........ and for most of us,, we have $ limits...
    I have been very interested in these posts, because like you.. I want to make the experiences enjoyable and without limits...
    So.. Lets make a list or,, lists of things we would like to have, etc..
    One consideration for me, is my wife and children, or guests..
    My wife does not like to be cold, or wet.
    My wife does not want to be scared.
    Oft times Alaska weather changes so rapidly, that you may encounter shirt sleeve to winter wear, to shirt sleeve weather in a half day trip on Alaska waters...
    I have been looking at the Scott boats because they offer an opportunity to maybe get some comfort, some safety, and be able to go far distance with little expense....
    So what is your list?
    Max
    When you come to a fork in the trail, take it!

    Rentals for Canoes, Kayaks, Rafts, boats serving the Kenai canoe trail system and the Kenai river for over 15 years. www.alaskacanoetrips.com

  6. #6

    Default Canoe

    I bought a 21' Scott because it seemed so practical. Ran it all around the Kenai this summer for 3 weeks and used about $25 to $30 fuel! Very stable does skinny water
    extremly well. There are better big water boats but the big water boats will not
    do what the Scott will. Wanted to spend more time playing and be able to afford
    to do so. So in that respects I am pleased.

  7. #7
    Member sayak's Avatar
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    Default A list, Max...

    What could be said? The smaller the craft, the cheaper it will be, but the more you will suffer in the elements, be they wind, rain or cold.
    The larger the craft, the more the creature comforts, but the more it will hit your pocket book HARD for (as you said) not only the cost of the craft, but the gas, insurance, wear and tear on vehicle, etc.

    My solution is to have three craft, all cheap, but with varying degrees of comfort.
    - 17' square stern canoe for small rivers like the Swanson and no-power lakes,
    - 14' jon boat with small kicker for lakes and bigger rivers like Kasilof and lower Kenai,
    - 19' aluminum skiff w/ large kicker for those trips to Katchemak Bay, Hidden Lake, and dipnetting.

    None of these boats are particularly comfortable, even the Bayrunner on a windy day can be a bit hairy. All are paid for. All are economical.

    Every outing in the great outdoors will cost you. Even a trip from Soldotna to K-Bay and back will run run $150 with gas/bait/food/launch fee. Imagine what it would be from Anchorage.

    For comfort, take lots of food and drinks, a bucket, a tarp, cushions, a campfire grill and maybe an infa-red heater for spring or fall. Go ashore as frequently as your schedule allows or as wife and children dictate.

    When I see folks going by with the 24', double Honda outboard powered, cushy cabin boats, I gotta say, I get a little envious for a moment. Then I remember my income, how infrequently I would actually use a cushy boat, and the impact on my wallet or the debt I would incur, and I realize that scenario is not for me.

    Hey Max-
    Thank you for the info on the Moose and Swanson. Never made it out as I got really busy, but I filed it in the back of my mind for future reference.

  8. #8
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    Default the correct Canoe / Boat

    the size of the canoe is in queston, bigger is more stable, but cost to operate goes up an it needs deeper water to operate in, so you have make up your mind what you want to do,
    Once you get larger than the grumman 19 or the Osage 18 it is tuff if not inpossable to portage, an the 19 FT I have is about 125 lbs an is tuff to portage [I am getting old]

  9. #9

    Default

    I'm in the same fix the Rat is in. I sold a Grumman 19 foot because I thought I couldn't take my family in it and I worried about my daughters falling out. I bought a boat just like his last September because I wanted a boat that could go up rivers and out in the bays. I was thinking comfort (soft top and heater) and safety. It's an awesome boat but I haven't taken it into skinny water yet because I'm nervous about tearing up a 40k boat. I haven't taken it into salt water because I don't feel ready yet. I took it out two times last year and 4 times this year. My girls road in the back with the wind in their hair. So much for the heater. Daughters are tougher than I thought they'd be. A trip up the Yetna and back usually costs us about $300+. A boat similar to the 21 foot Scott could do that trip under $50 and still haul everything we need. I'd like to hunt the Koyukuk someday but that would mean at least $2500 in fuel with my boat. I may consider selling my boat next summer and look into a Scott or build that 20 foot canoe mentioned in another thread. It would probably be a better fit with one of my osage selfbows anyway. Things to ponder over the winter....

  10. #10

    Default 20 foot square stern

    this is the one I keep thinking about building. But I haven't done it yet. If anyone does build it let me know how it goes.

    Here's the link http://www.common-sense-boats.com/columbia_canoe.htm
    Wasilla Real Estate News
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  11. #11
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by martyv View Post
    this is the one I keep thinking about building. But I haven't done it yet. If anyone does build it let me know how it goes.

    Here's the link http://www.common-sense-boats.com/columbia_canoe.htm
    I stitch and glued a kayak and it was pretty easy and enjoyable. The result was excellent. As for the design...the best freighters lift up at the stern like a boattail bullet to reduce friction. If you look at the big Scott freighters they have this feature. Old timers like Calvin Rustrum talk about this.

    Despite this it looks good. I'd fiberglass the bottom to aid impact resistance and use West System Epoxy. Good stuff!

  12. #12
    Member danattherock's Avatar
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    Default

    There is a Canadian Canoe forum that may be of use to you. Check out the "Equipment" and "Boat design and construction" forums. Lots of insights from some guys serious about canoeing. Post a question there and you will get some good feedback. The canoe is more widely used in Canada than the US.

    http://www.myccr.com/SectionForums/index.php
    The two loudest sounds known to man: a gun that goes bang when it is supposed to go click and a gun that goes click when it is supposed to go bang.

  13. #13
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    Default

    Here is what Calvin Rustrum has to say in " North American Canoe Country" page 32.

    "The first consideration in the selection of a square stern canoe is to make sure the flat face of the transom does not continue below the waterline. Som aluminum canoes have this serious defect and the manufacturers should lose no time in correcting it. The flat area of the transom below the water creates a drag, kicks up a swirl and back whips the water into the canoe with motor speed. When paddling the canoe the flat area below the water creates a noisy suction churn thus making the canoe entirely unfit for the quiet travel...." Page 33 has a picture of the proper and improper design.

    I'll go out on a limb and agree with Mr. Rustrum on this.

    Check out this site for a look at a properly designed Transom in a canoe similar in weight to the one you want to build.

    http://www.scottcanoe.com/1_canoes/makobe.html

    or even nicer I think, the following. I own the HB Scott and it is a beaut!

    http://www.scottcanoe.com/1_canoes/albany.html

  14. #14

    Default

    North, I would agree with the design of the transom for most square stern canoes. I have a 17' alumacraft that is designed that way and I would say that it is an exceptionally efficeint hull design. With an electric motor I can cruised for a long time with almost no wake.

    This design I am looking at however is flat bottomed from about 1/2 way on the canoe and designed to be a planing canoe. If it is planing I think it should act like a normal flat bottomed boat and cruise nicely. If it is off plane it will be very inefficeint like most flat bottomed boats are.

    I guess we will have to see.
    Wasilla Real Estate News
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  15. #15
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by martyv View Post
    North, I would agree with the design of the transom for most square stern canoes. I have a 17' alumacraft that is designed that way and I would say that it is an exceptionally efficeint hull design. With an electric motor I can cruised for a long time with almost no wake.

    This design I am looking at however is flat bottomed from about 1/2 way on the canoe and designed to be a planing canoe. If it is planing I think it should act like a normal flat bottomed boat and cruise nicely. If it is off plane it will be very inefficeint like most flat bottomed boats are.

    I guess we will have to see.
    Only one way to find out and I think you will enjoy building her. Let us know how it works out.

  16. #16
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    Default Freighter Canoes Alm 19'

    The lightest freighters for the size are still aluminum.
    The best out thereare the Osage and the Older Grummans.
    The Osage is rated for 1000 pounds and is 17' by 44".
    The Grummans are rated for 1100 pounds and 19' by 39".
    I have recently talked to Osage and might be able to get them to stretch the 17' to a 19' if I can get some interest in it. That could
    be the next best thing. I'll keep you posted.

  17. #17
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    Default 20' Osage

    Why not go 20', 46-48" wide, and add 1" of Height to 15 1/2 on the Osage?

    Would these be a functional size?

    This would push the weight into the 120# range, a piece of cake for two guys. This would push the motor size to 15 hp?

    Marketing wise, Osage could have three models:
    - Little Missourian
    - Missourian
    - Yukonian -- Large, light, versatile aluminum freighter

    -Tim


    Quote Originally Posted by Madboater View Post
    The lightest freighters for the size are still aluminum.
    The best out thereare the Osage and the Older Grummans.
    The Osage is rated for 1000 pounds and is 17' by 44".
    The Grummans are rated for 1100 pounds and 19' by 39".
    I have recently talked to Osage and might be able to get them to stretch the 17' to a 19' if I can get some interest in it. That could
    be the next best thing. I'll keep you posted.

  18. #18
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    Default special run Osage ....

    Is Osage willing to redesign their 17'er to 20', or are they only willing to stretch it?

    The transom on the Osage 17'er is 18" wide. On the big Scotts, it's 26" wide. I'd like to see the transom at least 22" wide, more beam, and higher sides. And I'd be VERY interested. It would be a true Alaskan Moose Hunter's Special.

    Keep us informed.

  19. #19
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    Default osanagon out of montana/faibanks boat works

    a 17' osanagon cargo canoe is 42" wide a center and if you invest and can tig weld put G-channel aluminum rail all the way around it wont buckle

  20. #20
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    Cool Stetched Osage 17'

    I am working on convincing Osage on the sales they could pick up with the larger freighter. The canoes are stretched on a steel jig.
    At this time they are not ready to build a larger jig. But think they might be able to work with the current set up to a certain degree.
    1 to 2 ft. If interested let me know. More amunition.
    mike@boatshopak.com

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