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Thread: ADF&G Cook Inlet Issues paper

  1. #1
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    Default ADF&G Cook Inlet Issues paper

    ADF&G should be commended for putting this out.

    They compiled many questions they received from the public this season and explained the departments rationele for their actions.

    http://housemajority.org/coms/jcis/p...s_20080923.pdf

    Many of these issues have been discussed on this forum. I found the truth in Sport Fish Issue 4 very interesting, considering what I was told here. It appears there was discord amongst staff, and it wasn't the S.F. side.

    I'm also confident many will find this educational and informative as I did. Unfortunately, there will also be the few that claim conspiracy, black helicopters, and arrogance in the upper echelon staff.

    Enjoy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 375JDJ View Post
    ADF&G should be commended for putting this out.

    They compiled many questions they received from the public this season and explained the departments rationele for their actions.

    http://housemajority.org/coms/jcis/p...s_20080923.pdf

    Many of these issues have been discussed on this forum. I found the truth in Sport Fish Issue 4 very interesting, considering what I was told here. It appears there was discord amongst staff, and it wasn't the S.F. side.

    I'm also confident many will find this educational and informative as I did. Unfortunately, there will also be the few that claim conspiracy, black helicopters, and arrogance in the upper echelon staff.

    Enjoy.
    I read the report and nice try 375 on calling names for those who disagree. However, here is my response that I sent to the commercial fisheries director. In addition, I met today with the sport fish director and comm fish area management biologist who pointed out the OTF estimates to him by day. On 28 July four models showed the run under 2 million yet the issue paper says they agreed to wait until three days latter and did not meet until 29 July. That is not the complete story. Staff met on 28 July. So here is my questions and comments on this paper.

    I am reminded of Craig Ferguson comment - it is written down it must be true. I think you fell for that on this one 375DJD

    I read the response to issue 4 relative to Kenai River sockeye salmon run size projections. In that response the ADF&G states that staff met on 29 July 2008 and that staff decided to wait until after the OTF project was completed on 31 July to make a final inseason projection for use in regulation of the sport fishery.

    I find this interesting since the area staff has indicated in public meetings and in the press that they made the projection as early as 22 July and that it was final well before 31 July in their minds. Thus the conflict between the two divisions and it now appears with the regional and headquarters staff of ADF&G.

    Are you saying in this response that the Area Commercial Fisheries staff has misled the public on this issue and they are incorrect in their assessment? I believe they should have a chance to respond to these charges since the public was confused on this issue and it has created significant distrust of ADF&G.

    Someone is not telling the truth here. I believe the area staff has data presented at the earlier staff meetings that show the majority of the models were in fact showing a run under 2 million and to use the uncertainty excuse right now is less than honorable. Uncertainty always comes in with the OTF models and certainly a few days of additional OTF data would not drive the model results significantly one way or the other.

    However, a major issue is why the disconnect between the area staff and the rest of ADF&G if this response is accurate? Why does area staff continue to tell the public that they made the projections earlier. Why did the ADF&G not notify the public of this delay given projections are made after 20 July on an almost daily schedule?

    There appears to be a pattern in the other responses that is very evident. ADF&G wants to rewrite history on these events - for example:

    1. There was no concern for Kenai River sockeye salmon run strength when the Kasilof River personal use and sport fishery was expanded. Concern did not come up until after that decision. To imply otherwise is to rewrite history. To reference the final escapement numbers as proof of a decision made in early July is just creating smoke. The ADF&G staff as late as the third week in July was saying that the Kenai River was fine. They fished on 24 July. If concern was so great two weeks earlier then certainly a district wide period on 24 July was inappropriate.

    2. The discussion of the Bendix sonar failed to mention what ADF&G said in committee meetings. It appears ADF&G sees the committee meetings as not being part of the record and yet the committee recommendations came about because of assumptions about counting methods and management.

    3. The ADF&G has referenced Board intent numerous times in the response but in point of fact Board intent is not written in any record or meaningful way. Legal has said numerous times over the last 30 years that Board intent is not regulation and if the Board wants something they need to put it in regulation. Relative to the use of the Kasilof River terminal area the response indicated the terminal area should only be used for conservation reasons. Given that ADF&G was projecting going over the goal then a conservation reason existed unless ADF&G is indicating going over a goal is not a conservation reason. If that is the case then the rationale used for emergency order authority relative to regulation 75.003 is invalid.

    4. The ADF&G indicated that bag and possession limits should be altered to meet escapement goals and the confusion of the language in 75.003 is the reason for not following the limitations on authority in 75.003. However, at the Board of Fisheries meeting ADF&G has a proposal to give ADF&G authority for Kenai River sockeye salmon bag and possession limit changes. Thus ADF&G had the opportunity to bring this confusion up and yet did not. Instead, the Board passed the proposal and now ADF&G says they are confused and therefore can use 75.003 anyway they want given the situation. Is ADF&G going to submit an ACR to have the language changed. If not why not. Also, the question of using changes to bag and possession limits for streams with no escapement goal (Knik streams) was not answered. Regulation 75.003 is clear on this issue. Streams without goals cannot have bag and possession limits changed. Would you please answer this part of my question?

    I have only included some of the issues here with this paper. Today the sport fish director did indicate that his staff went to legal on 75.003 but after going over the history he conceded that ADF&G has not been consistent in its use of this authority and they are confused - however, if one reads 75.003 there should be no confusion. They are confused since they have taken different actions at different times. Thus they have to say they are confused or they are illegal on numerous occassions.

    Also, relative to 75.003 we reviewed the regulaiton and it is clear that one must close if the escapement is projected to be below the goal. Also, we discussed the response to the 10 July closure announcement and he understood the reason for the question about the PMA case. That case says emergency order authority cannot be used without new and significant information - this is in the court record. Notice the PMA case response speaks only to over turning a regulation. It does not deal with the new and significant informaiton issue.

    I could go on but this document iis the Departments rewrite of history to cover this season. It is not accurate and is not complete.

    Call it black helicopters if you want. I call it a cover up of the truth.



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    So many things I want to say, but I need more time to re-read everything. I need to find out what is Nerka's words what was in the report. No time now, got homework to do.

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    Default make something clear

    I want to make sure everyone realizes that the conversations today were very productive with the sport fish director. He actually called me to meet. He listened very carefully and we clarified why there is disagreement on some of the issues.

    I felt he is learning this fishery and the reason why people are suspect of certain actions. I am not saying he agreed with everything I said. However, I think communications were improved and the answers in the issue paper were not complete relative to those concerns.

    For example, I could care less on when the final projection was made on the run projection. I am more concern about the staff not being on the same page which is very evident givent the public, press, and issue paper stories.

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    Default Good info

    Lots of good information - many thanks for posting the link.

    It was interesting to see that the comercial guys were also gripping about closures etc. I had been assured by Grumps that I was the only one complaining about anything!

    Quote Originally Posted by 375JDJ View Post
    ADF&G should be commended for putting this out.

    They compiled many questions they received from the public this season and explained the departments rationele for their actions.

    http://housemajority.org/coms/jcis/p...s_20080923.pdf

    Enjoy.
    Living the urban lifestyle so I can pay my way and for my family's needs, and support my country. And you?
    ".. ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country" JFK

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    Quote Originally Posted by tvfinak
    It was interesting to see that the comercial guys were also gripping about closures etc. I had been assured by Grumps that I was the only one complaining about anything!
    What are you talking about now?

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    Really TV you bait him and then cry about him posting after you? I wonder what you are like in person?

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    Quote Originally Posted by 375JDJ View Post
    .....Unfortunately, there will also be the few that claim conspiracy, black helicopters, and arrogance in the upper echelon staff......
    You are apparently a prophet.

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    Well Mark, how about you address Nerka's points.....

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    I'll just man the anti-aircraft gun and watch for black helicopters.

    It would probably be more successful than playing games with Nerka.

    It doesn't seem to matter who questions, debates, disagrees, etc anything with him (and/or his sergeant-at-arms). It can be a department or two full of biologists, sport fishermen, sport fishing organizations, personal use fishermen, or economists. They're all wrong, and if they produce information that can't be refuted, he simply says that it's "a cover up of the truth."

    It's like it's Biblical:

    ........Man does not live on fish alone, but on every utterance from the mouth of Nerka................

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    Default I cried about him posting after me?

    I don't recall crying about him posting after me- did I forget something?

    In person I have always been considered as a nice guy, great to work with on about anything, very intellegent esp. in the area of analysis and problem solving, and having a low tolerence for B.S. I've generally been quite sucessfull in working with all kinds of people including those generally hard to work with - and this is on many jobs overseas and in a number of states. Most important, in the very few instances where I've had real problems with people I realized almost everyone else had serious problems dealing with that person also.

    We should all get together next summer, cook some fish, and have a beer around the campfire - I'd like to meet some of you guys also. I don't get violent or mad - none of this is that important in the whole scheme of things.


    Quote Originally Posted by Akbrownsfan View Post
    Really TV you bait him and then cry about him posting after you? I wonder what you are like in person?
    Living the urban lifestyle so I can pay my way and for my family's needs, and support my country. And you?
    ".. ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country" JFK

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    Default from the commercial guys

    It was apparent from the questions that some of the commerical guys weren't real happy about being closed down when the sport fishery remained open.

    You have constatnly implied that I'm the only one that has any issues and complains- that everyone else gets plenty of fish etc.


    Quote Originally Posted by Grampyfishes View Post
    What are you talking about now?
    Living the urban lifestyle so I can pay my way and for my family's needs, and support my country. And you?
    ".. ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country" JFK

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    Mark is sour grapes. He can't address Nerka's points, so he resorts to attacking him personally. Typical.

    One thing about Nerka...he doesn't play games and he doesn't argue the facts. If you can show him where he's wrong, he'll admit it.

    tvfinak, people here don't know you. We only know what you post. So think about that next time you post.

    Comparing your complaining to the commercial fishermen complaining is hardly a legitimate analogy. The commercial fishermen were upset because they got closed down due to escapement concerns, while the sport and personal use continued to fish. I'd say they have a point. F&G even attempted to address that concern. Whereas your complaining is almost laughable...You say there were "no fish", "few fish", "no opportunity", and so on, all while the fish were swimming right under your computer.

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    You know i am a new guy here but i have a questinon. Can a discussion be had without it turning into a 3rd grade pissing match?? The level of maturity with some is a real issue and i believe comes from impropper potty training when they were young. the game of one upsmanship is truly showing your imature kids. You could care less of the subject of the thread as long as it looks like you are on top

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark View Post
    You are apparently a prophet.

    Thanks Mark, but far from one.

    I mean, does it take a rocket scientist to predict the reaction from folks here?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grampyfishes View Post
    ......One thing about Nerka...he doesn't play games and he doesn't argue the facts. If you can show him where he's wrong, he'll admit it......
    Or simply state that it's "a cover up of the truth."

    That pretty much finishes any loose ends, doesn't it?

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    Mark, I haven't seen you address any of Nerka's points. You've only attacked him for making them.

  18. #18
    Mark
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    I'm done with him and you, too.

    I get dizzy on merry-go-rounds.

    There will be no more responses to you.

    Good night.

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    It's hard to be done with something when you never did anything.

    BTW, thank you.

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    Default More like drunk fishermen

    I compare to more like a bunch of drunkend fishermen -loudered and more annoying with a lot more piss.

    I've tried to clean up my act on these newer threads but sometimes I have been gotten caught up by those who haven't. I've always tried to stay away from personal attacks even though I've been regularily slandered - but some times I do slip up. I apologize for that also and will work to improve my track record. I wish the others would make the same effort.


    Quote Originally Posted by kgpcr View Post
    You know i am a new guy here but i have a questinon. Can a discussion be had without it turning into a 3rd grade pissing match?? The level of maturity with some is a real issue and i believe comes from impropper potty training when they were young. the game of one upsmanship is truly showing your imature kids. You could care less of the subject of the thread as long as it looks like you are on top
    Living the urban lifestyle so I can pay my way and for my family's needs, and support my country. And you?
    ".. ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country" JFK

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