Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 24

Thread: Flash Hole Prep

  1. #1

    Default Flash Hole Prep

    I getting ready to reload some once fired brass. How do you guys prep your flash holes if you do? I used to run a pipe cleaner through them.

  2. #2
    Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Kenai
    Posts
    1,888

    Default

    Generally I run a decapper pin through them But, some folks are probably pickier than I am & I'm sure it pays off for them.
    Vance in AK.

    Matthew 6:33
    "But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added to you."

  3. #3
    Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    West"by GOD"Virginia
    Posts
    168

    Default

    I uniform the primer pockets and deburr the flash holes since it's only a one time affair.

    til later

  4. #4
    Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    SwampView AK, Overlooking Mt. Mckinley and Points Beyond.
    Posts
    8,808

    Default

    The de-burr is one time, but I use the PP uniformer every time, since it's an easy way to clean'em.

    I've never had a Primer Hole blocked, and I can tell by looking, if they are. I don't use a brass polisher though, so I don't have a concern that the cleaning media would plug them.

    Smitty of the North
    Walk Slow, and Drink a Lotta Water.
    Has it ever occurred to you, that Nothing ever occurs to God? Adrien Rodgers.
    You can't out-give God.

  5. #5
    Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    West"by GOD"Virginia
    Posts
    168

    Default

    Smitty,I also use my uniformer as a cleaner. On really tarnished casings I'll use a 3M pad and drill to clean them so I can inspect them,no tumbler. Most of the time I just wipe them down and reload.

    til later

  6. #6

    Default

    I use a vibrating "tumbler". Why dont you guys use a tumbler???

  7. #7
    Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    West"by GOD"Virginia
    Posts
    168

    Default

    Most of the time anymore I'm only reloading for my rifle so I'm not reloading in a large quantity and keep up with it. Lately I've worked up loads for two rifles for someone else,which I haven't done in yrs,to the tune of almost 200rds so a tumbler would have been useful as some casings were really dirty but I got by.

    til later

  8. #8
    Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    SwampView AK, Overlooking Mt. Mckinley and Points Beyond.
    Posts
    8,808

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MontanaRifleman View Post
    I use a vibrating "tumbler". Why dont you guys use a tumbler???
    I donít use a tumbler, because it seems like a waste of time, and resources.

    I clean the necks with steel wool, or maybe some water soluble brass cleaner, or whatever else works, but itís not necessary.

    If I acquire cases that are really cruddy, I use a homemade liquid cleaner.

    I brush the inside of the necks so they size easier.

    I donít like the cases to be too shiny and slick. Iím afraid they wonít stick to the sides of the chamber as well, when the loads are fired.

    Smitty of the North
    Walk Slow, and Drink a Lotta Water.
    Has it ever occurred to you, that Nothing ever occurs to God? Adrien Rodgers.
    You can't out-give God.

  9. #9

    Default

    I wonder if tumbling them keeps the inside of the cases from getting too powdered up?

  10. #10
    Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    West"by GOD"Virginia
    Posts
    168

    Default

    I would say if any of the tumblers would clean the inside of casings the best it would be a vibrating one such as yours. I've used a pencil beam LED light to look inside casings I've used for over 20yrs and saw no powder residue build up and could actually see a reflection off of bare brass. But I'll say again that if I had ALOT of casings to clean up,so I could inspect them for damage,I'd use a tumbler(vibrating).

    til later

  11. #11
    Moderator
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Midwest
    Posts
    4,431

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MontanaRifleman View Post
    I wonder if tumbling them keeps the inside of the cases from getting too powdered up?
    Tumbling cases gets rid of the abrasive carbon and powder residue inside the cases and lessens the need for inside neck lube when sizing. Try this. Tumble half of a batch of cases for about four hours then lube and size the hole batch normally. I'll bet the tumbled cases do not neck chatter with the expander like the un-tumbled half does.

    It is a very good idea to tumble cases clean. If you use the red rough and walnut hulls in place of the car polish and corn cob media, you'll need to clean off the red stuff before sizing it will scratch the dies.
    Is there nothing so sacred on this earth that you aren't willing to kill or die for?



  12. #12
    Member Dan in Alaska's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Anchorage
    Posts
    854

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Smitty of the North View Post
    I donít like the cases to be too shiny and slick. Iím afraid they wonít stick to the sides of the chamber as well, when the loads are fired.
    I don't understand. Assuming proper headspace, where are are the cases going to go? Where can they go? The texture of the case should have nothing to do with headspace.



    I use a tumbler and clean my cases whenever they need it. I prefer shiney, new looking cases over dirty grungy ones that introduce dirt and debris into the chamber.

  13. #13
    Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Kenai
    Posts
    1,888

    Default

    Dan, I use a vibratory media "tumbler" between each firing as I too like a clean case, but I believe what Smitty is refering to is the pressure put on the bolt face during firing. As the case expands it "grips" the chamber to a degree causing less presure on the bolt face. The AI line of cartridges featured nearly no taper on case walls for this reason (as I understand it).
    Vance in AK.

    Matthew 6:33
    "But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added to you."

  14. #14
    Member Dan in Alaska's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Anchorage
    Posts
    854

    Default

    Okay. I see what you're saying, but is that a really big deal? I'm asking sincerely, BTW. I'm still trying to understand this concept.

    If the headspace is correct, there should be no (very little) movement of the case. It can't move forward because of the fit in the chamber, and it can't move rearward because of the bolt face. And, since pressure is uniform (a non-vectored force), the pressure "pushing back" on the bolt face should be the same as the chamber pressure.

    I still don't see how a "slippery" case would exert more force on the bolt than a "sticky" one. The case shouldn't be moving, anyway.

    If the headspace is too great, however, I can see how a case would move rearward. This isn't a good thing, at all, but I don't see a "sticky" case as an effective cure for bad headspace.

    I'm still looking for a downside to having clean cases.....other than the obvious - I really hate tumbling them.

  15. #15
    Member L. G.'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    N'ern S.E. AK
    Posts
    838

    Default

    On the flash hole prep, I de-burr/chamfer the primer hole. Seen some pretty ugly ones myself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan in Alaska View Post
    Okay. I see what you're saying, but is that a really big deal? I'm asking sincerely, BTW. I'm still trying to understand this concept.
    Dan, if you don't understand how a case can grip a chamber wall, you should read about P.O. Ackley's Win M94 experiment where he removed the "bolt" and fired the rifle with an AI case and it. The case remained in the chamber and did not rocket out rearword. This was not with a lubed case. Think about what would probably happen with a lubed case.

    Also, you need to know that the cartridge brass, chamber and bolt are all working elastically. It stretches and then bounces back. Only if you had a perfectly rigid system would it not matter.

  16. #16
    Moderator
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Midwest
    Posts
    4,431

    Default

    Dan, L.G. Smitty and interested parties,

    I'd like to get in this "case gripping the chamber walls" debate if I could. I at one time fully subscribed to the P.O. Ackley concept of straight(er) walled cases gripping the walls and reducing bolt thrust. I am not now fully convinced that this is a valid concept. I have had some rather extensive debate with the Dr's. Ken (Howell and Oehler) about this and they both disagree with it in a modern rifle at the pressures of about 60,000 psi. At these pressures, as Ken Oehler put it, brass is like bubble gum and is so elastic that any gripping would not reduce bolt thrust by any significant amount. Certainly the P.O. Ackley calibers even of his time would operate at enough pressure to be in the same consideration.

    Other factors do come into consideration here, one being that at lower pressures ( I don't know what that would be exactly) before the brass becomes like bubble gum, the cases will grip the walls very tight. Both before and after the pressure curve gets above the bubblegum line. This due to the uniform force of the nature of gas pressure inside the case. Straight walled revolver calibers are a good example of the before. Hopefully revolvers of even magnum calibers aren't enough to turn brass into bubble gum. This is the principle by which the case head is not thrust back against the recoil face of the revolver and stop it from turning, at least it springs back after it does press hard against the recoil face. This would seem to be true for straight walled rifle cases that operate at below bubble gum pressures as well and of course black powder calibers.

    Another point I have dicovered in my not so scientific tests is with auto loading gas opertated rifles, specifically the Remington 740/742 rifles and the M-1 Garrand. With mid burning rate powders, 4895, 4064, RL-15, etc, the pressure at the port is ideal for gas operation. The gas pressure is below the peak and significantly lower by the time the bullet crosses the gas port with these powders and somewhere around 20,000 psi for the Rem 740, and about 14,550 with the M-1. The system is designed around this pressure. (port size vs gas volume, etc) With the slower burning powders, 4831, RL-22, etc, pressure at the port is significantly higher when the bullet crosses the port and this gives much greater force on the operating mechanism and can damage the Garrand operating rod.

    With the Remington, since the port is much closer to the receiver, this higher pressure works the action but the pressure inside the barrel (the bullet hasn't exited yet) the action will cycle but the case will remain in the chamber because the pressure has the case expanded and locked in the chamber. The Remington extractor will routinely tear a chunk of brass off the rim of the case and leave it in the chamber, every time. This is an example of the after bubblegum level pressures but not low enough to allow the brass to relax and spring back to normal dimensions.

    Further since the repeatable Remington experiments, I will say that a case certainly grips the walls of a chamber but there is a point where the case is so pliable (bubble gum) that it can no longer offer any resistance to flow, or only a minor amount, and would then transmit full bolt thrust to the bolt head or very nearly full thrust.

    Also, I will say that with modern, high pressure, bottle neck rifle cases, there is no measurable difference in this grip, or lack of it, due to cases being polished slick or left slightly rough surfaced. Ackley did many experiments with his case wall gripping some times oiling the case, sometimes dry, and found that even with excessive headspace dry cases did not expand longitudinally or stretch the rear of the case because of this grip. I am not about to dispute his findings but I do not know what pressure these test were conducted at and likely neither did he. I am convinced that there is gripping of the side walls but I also know at some point the brass will become a liquid, I've seen that. Granted it will be well above the normal SAAMI pressure but it will do it.

    Ken Howell has also written about the Ken Waters (We've had a lot of good Kens in the shooting industry) method of determining pressure relative to case head expansion. Howell says this isn't a reliable test for most of us because of the varying anneal, elasticity and work hardening of the brass and it is not a consistant gage of pressure. The CUP method of measuring pressure is even suspect because of the copper pellet used may be harder or softer from time to time and to such a degree that ambient temperature can make a difference in how much the pellet is crushed. Ken Waters is an engineer and trained in the metalurgical field and his technique is well disciplined so I would tip my hat to him. I think Dr. Howells comments about his method gave him credit but cautioned against its use as a general practice by others because of errors in technique. Dr. Howell also points out that the maximum safe pressure for many rifles is below the pressure required to expand brass to any measurable extent.

    Given this nature of brass, too hard, too soft, unknown, etc we would be wise not to rely on brass to be the indicator of excess pressure or to reduce bolt thrust or to even be much more than a vessel to hold the other components together. If we are lucky it will be an effective gasket to prevent gas from leaking out into our face when we hear the boom!

    Now back to the case cleaning, a clean case is a happy case.
    Is there nothing so sacred on this earth that you aren't willing to kill or die for?



  17. #17
    Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    SwampView AK, Overlooking Mt. Mckinley and Points Beyond.
    Posts
    8,808

    Default

    Walsir,
    Iíve not formed any opinions on these theories of P O Ackley, and others concerning this.

    And I AM, an ďinterested partyĒ, regarding Murphyís dissertation on the subject.

    Iíve always understood, that the sides of the case stick to the sides of the chamber on firing a round.

    For me, itís the same reason I donít want lubricant left on my cases, or oil in the chamber of my rifle. Granted, Iíve equated ďshinyĒ with ďslickĒ.

    As I said, ďI donít like the cases to be too ďshiny and slickĒ. Iím afraid they wonít stick to the sides of the chamber as well, when the loads are firedĒ.

    Iím not saying itís all that valid of a reason, or an argument, but it works for me, and I wanted to answer the question put to me.

    Smitty of the North
    Walk Slow, and Drink a Lotta Water.
    Has it ever occurred to you, that Nothing ever occurs to God? Adrien Rodgers.
    You can't out-give God.

  18. #18

    Default

    Wow...from flash hole prep to grippy cases... I guess I did ask the question It has been an interesting discussion and thanks for all the input. Here's my know nothing view on it. I think consistancy matters. So if my polished cases "slip" they are probably more consistant in their slipping than not so clean (dirty) cases. I might be wrong, but I'm guessing the design of the rifle chamber and bolt was made to hold the fired case and not the wall of the chamber? Especially with factory ammo. This might be a successful technique for some but I will stick to vibrating my brass. And I'm not being cynical or sarcastic, there are a lot of different approaches to handloading. Thanks again for the input and thanks Smitty and 300S&W for your answers.

    Back to flashole prep... I could not find a tool locally that would debur the flash holes so I decided to use a 1/4 inh drill bit and twisted it a few times by hand to clean the edges. And I also used a primer pocket uniforming tool for the pockets and used a piece of tie wire (for tying rebar) to rub out the flash hole of any powder or irregularities.

    I'm trimming now and hopefully shooting tomorrow if it doesn't rain.

    Cheers,

    Mark

  19. #19
    Moderator
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Midwest
    Posts
    4,431

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MontanaRifleman View Post
    Wow...from flash hole prep to grippy cases... I guess I did ask the question It has been an interesting discussion and thanks for all the input. Here's my know nothing view on it. I think consistancy matters. So if my polished cases "slip" they are probably more consistant in their slipping than not so clean (dirty) cases. I might be wrong, but I'm guessing the design of the rifle chamber and bolt was made to hold the fired case and not the wall of the chamber? Especially with factory ammo. This might be a successful technique for some but I will stick to vibrating my brass. And I'm not being cynical or sarcastic, there are a lot of different approaches to handloading. Thanks again for the input and thanks Smitty and 300S&W for your answers.

    Back to flashole prep... I could not find a tool locally that would debur the flash holes so I decided to use a 1/4 inh drill bit and twisted it a few times by hand to clean the edges. And I also used a primer pocket uniforming tool for the pockets and used a piece of tie wire (for tying rebar) to rub out the flash hole of any powder or irregularities.

    I'm trimming now and hopefully shooting tomorrow if it doesn't rain.

    Cheers,

    Mark
    Rain! It is snowing here and 20 degrees!

    That deburring tool is available frome Lyman, Redding, Sinclair, and several others but is rarely found on the lacal shelf. Honestly I do not deburr primer flash holes very much rarely ever for hunting loads. When the hole is punched in the brass it is punched from the bottom. This leaves shards of brass, little nubbins, on the inside of the case. Sometimes the brass turds clog the touch hole and can be seen from the bottom as an obstruction in new brass. This deburring tools has a long point that goes into the case from the mouth. The long point cuts the hole diameter uniformly and the drill bit second step of it is about .200" in diameter with cutting flutes to cut out these little blobs of brass that were punched in. The tool also has a stop that aligns the tool with the case mouth and is adjustable and tapered to be a one size fits all with some allen set screw adjustment.

    This adjustment is important and needs to be understood. You also must feel when you have cut through the little brass nubbins, then you chamfer the inside of the flash hole just slightly, or not at all, and experiment with this judiciously. You can freelance with this tool until the cattle futures go up but not ever make anything better, only worse. You can as Al pointed out a while back, destroy the brass. And as you say, consistancy is the name of the game. Also cases done this way with this adjustment must be kept seperate from those done another way and you cannot see the difference in the chamferred cut or flat cut..........so.

    Also the flash hole in fired brass need not be cleaned I can see no advantage of that only degradation if the hole is made out of round.

    I use this tool to repair new brass that has been poorly made or to dress up a flash hole or to experiment on the case of a cratridge giving me trouble. I do think for most handloaders that it is something that should be ignored until you have a few hundred thousand rounds under your belt. Quite frankly I put this right there with neck turning or neck reaming, if you don't have a certain need for it or are not actually fixing a problem, leave it be.

    If you have designed a certain cartridge for a particular application and drawn the reamer dimensions and die dimensions in such a way to need special prep and brass forming operations then you probably know what your doing and will make the right choice with these tools. Lacking that it might be best to stick with the basics. I don't mean to imply that you have no arrived at this level but just that knowledge base does not arrive overnight and we often need more instructions than what comes with the tool.
    Is there nothing so sacred on this earth that you aren't willing to kill or die for?



  20. #20
    Moderator
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Midwest
    Posts
    4,431

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Smitty of the North View Post
    The de-burr is one time, but I use the PP uniformer every time, since it's an easy way to clean'em.

    I've never had a Primer Hole blocked, and I can tell by looking, if they are. I don't use a brass polisher though, so I don't have a concern that the cleaning media would plug them.

    Smitty of the North
    It is odd sometimes for me to see the way others do the same tasks I do. To me the purpose of tumbling my cases clean is so they will be clean BEFORE I put them in my expensive dies. They won't have mud and sand a carbon fouling on them that can be mixed with case lube and rammed into my sizing die. So rarely ever would I have cases in the tumbler without primers in the pockets and no corn cob/walnut hull coffee grounds in the flash hole . Some folks and I myself sometimes will decap brass then throw it in the tumbler cleaner. I do this with a decapping only die. The cases do not touch the die body just a decapping stem. ON these occasions I will pick out all media before loading because it will matter. I like you use the carbide primer pocket uniformer every time to clean the carbon out of the primer pocket and get a good seat for the primer. I know some people use the tumbler as a means to clean the primer pocket but it really doesn't do much cleaning to the pocket just plugs it up.

    I'm not pickin' on ya hear just want to make a point about the cleaning of cases. We've covered about every step in brass prep here in the flash hole thread.
    Is there nothing so sacred on this earth that you aren't willing to kill or die for?



Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •