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Thread: Guide fined $8000 - anyone have the rest of the story?

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    Member CanCanCase's Avatar
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    Default Guide fined $8000 - anyone have the rest of the story?

    Here's a re-print (with permission to re-distribute!) of a State news release I received yesterday. I realize it's the State's position, and there's probably more than one side to the story. Anyone have another point of view? Or is this just a case of one bad apple making us all look bad?

    http://www.cancancase.com/forum/alas....html#post7674

    -Case
    M/V CanCan - 34' SeaWolf - Bandon, OR
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    Member ret25yo's Avatar
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    I personally think he got off waaaay to easy... I think honestly (based on evidence) that he should no longer be licensed ever... I think also that any object used in the commission of a crime should be confiscated and publicly auctioned.. that would include the boat and all tackle and rods...

    get tough...

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    Member moose-head's Avatar
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    I don't know about the other side of the story, but that seems pretty cut-and-dried to me. Letting someone keep fishing to fill the boats limit then stopping when the boat has a limit on board is one thing (although it is illegal) but is not as damaging to the resource as what the link suggests happened here. Sounds like the guide was sorting through and killing smaller fish just to get a better picture at the dock and should get in trouble for that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ret25yo View Post
    I personally think he got off waaaay to easy... I think honestly (based on evidence) that he should no longer be licensed ever... I think also that any object used in the commission of a crime should be confiscated and publicly auctioned.. that would include the boat and all tackle and rods...

    get tough...
    I agree. This man has no business in the industry.
    Vance in AK.

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    "But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added to you."

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    Member ak_powder_monkey's Avatar
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    He should have his license revoked for 3 years which is the maximum... They should also confiscate his boat and all his gear.
    I choose to fly fish, not because its easy, but because its hard.

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    Member ret25yo's Avatar
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    what about the illegal "hunting" of waterfowl (with a paintball gun).... what a chithead!!!!

  7. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by ak_powder_monkey View Post
    He should have his license revoked for 3 years which is the maximum... They should also confiscate his boat and all his gear.
    I agree, it sounds like they gave him a soft pat on the fanny. The guy makes a living from the resource, and was caught red-handed grossly abusing the resource - and they take his license for one month? Cmon.

  8. #8

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    Remove his lic-for-life! What a loser! That kind of ethics has no place in the charter biz!
    (GOOD THING THE UNDERCOVER GUYS WERE THERE TO PREVENT THE WASTEFUL KILLING OF THE FISH, SINCE THAT IS THERE MAIN PRIORITY RIGHT?)

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    Member CanCanCase's Avatar
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    The really sad part is that technically, he won't surrender his licenses until May of '09... I wonder if there's any sort of injunction keeping him from hunting, fishing or guiding between now and then? Further, don't licenses expire Dec. 31 each year? Maybe I'm missing the point, but why force him to turn in expired licenses, or why allow him to guide/fish/hunt at all between now and May '09?

    Too bad we don't see this sort of aggressive prosecution in all sectors... I know there's plenty of nastiness going on amongst non-guided sport and personal use fishermen, and some of the things that a few commercial boats get away with are just atrocious too...

    -Case
    M/V CanCan - 34' SeaWolf - Bandon, OR
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    Member TWB's Avatar
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    Guide license revoked for 13 months with 12 months suspended? Thats bull****. He should have lost his guide license permanently, AND given the full fine.
    We do not go to the green woods and crystal waters to rough it, we go to smooth it. We get it rough enough at home; in towns and cities; in shops, offices, stores, banks anywhere that we may be placed

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    Member CanCanCase's Avatar
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    I'm not defending the guy here... opposite, in fact... lock him up and toss the key as far as I'm concerned. What I'm wondering is what will happen to the clients who are the ones actually doing the taking and wasting? The guide was convicted of allowing the clients to over-harvest, so what's the penalty to the anglers themselves?

    Also, if we are or should be confiscating boats, rods, reels, etc. and doing jail and loss of license time for a guide who got caught allowing his clients to over harvest a few fish (by my reading, there were at least 2 extra fish... could have been up to 6 or more over-limit, I suppose) what is or should the penalty be for a boat captain who takes a few thousand extra fish in a year? Or does it just go against their quota for the following year? What happens to the boat that catches and keeps (and then is legally allowed to sell) hundreds of 3-12# king salmon... even in a year of low abundance when sport fisheries all over the country are being limited or closed? Of course I'm talking about commercial fishing and bycatch issues, not a guide who cheats, but if we're going to impose nasty penalties on a guy for getting caught with a few extra fish, should the penalty for a few thousand pounds be just as strict if not more?

    -Case
    M/V CanCan - 34' SeaWolf - Bandon, OR
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    Case you mentioned commercial guys in both your posts...........you got any facts there or you just speculating? Beyond that I agree with you and what you are saying. I don't understand your need to bring other users into this. Just like I wouldn't understand if someone said guides do this because of this one documented occurence.

  13. #13
    Member Stogey's Avatar
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    Default Feds?

    Have the feds grabbed any of the charges?

    Migratory Bird Act -- since he was harassing ducks; heck this protects Gulls, Magpies and other PLENTIFUL annoying birds!

    Northern Pacific Halibut Act - thought that area of the ocean was covered by these or some other federal statutes... remember... the 1 fish limit that was imposed and promptly rescinded this past spring.

    Magnuson-Stevens Fisheries Conservation and Management Act - talks about guided fishing.

    Heck, when in doubt - throw the Lacey act at someone... it ain't iron clad, but it covers LOTS of 'bad' behavior.

    With any luck - based upon the details released in the article; the state went light so the Feds could 'hook him up.'

    Cheers.

  14. #14

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    http://forums.outdoorsdirectory.com/...ad.php?t=39071

    Does the interstate compact the State just got approval to join have any affect on this deal?

    I don't think it does but be interesting to get some other views.


    And.....

    What about the proposed Commerical Sport Fish Guide Board?

    http://forums.outdoorsdirectory.com/...ad.php?t=39080

    Would that board have any authority in this instance?


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    Member Anglette's Avatar
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    Default Oh Puleeeeeeeeeeeez

    oh boy 1 month suspension, 3 years probation, that doesn't even account as a slap on the wrist!!!!! More like, GO TO YOUR ROOM!

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    Default Lacey Act

    I believe the Lacey Act only applies when there is a big game violation that crosses state lines or native american reservation boundries. I have been involved in the prosecution of three or four and they all involved big game or eagles and only when state lines or reservation boundries were crosses.

  17. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by cool_husker View Post
    I believe the Lacey Act only applies when there is a big game violation that crosses state lines or native american reservation boundries. I have been involved in the prosecution of three or four and they all involved big game or eagles and only when state lines or reservation boundries were crosses.
    Yah; and I think the intrastate compact doesn't apply to commercial sport fish or even commercial fisherman so I guess he dodges that bullet too....


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    Member willphish4food's Avatar
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    It's always good to see the rogues get nailed. I have to question the 1 month loss of license, with the clearly shown intent to violate. Game violations are enforced by the same troopers and courts as fish violations, but if I were to shoot a moose that is a fork only because the 3rd tine was broken off, or a 49" moose, and turned myself in, I would lose my license for the rest of the year, minimum. I would also have to pay a large fine. And take the time to quarter out and deliver the meat to the state. All that with no intent to break any law, and as my reward for doing the right thing and turning myself in. If intent to poach is shown, then the fines are much worse, and jail time is possible.

    In this case, a man who makes a living off a shared resource, who also represents the state to its visitors, is caught knowingly and willfully violating multiple fishing regulations, and drawing his clients into it or selling more seats by doing it. His fine was steep, but he only misses one month of fishing, and can go right back to guiding. The fact that undercover troopers were on board indicates that complaints of his activities had been logged, so this was not an isolated occurence. I would like to see more equity in the prosecution of fish and game violations, and a system that treats criminal intent as such, and does not treat an honest mistake as a criminal act.

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    Member fishnngrinn's Avatar
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    Rodriguez sounds like guy who never grew up. He lives for "me first" and has no concern for the bigger picture, eg conservation, ecology, respect for the game we persue, etc. It is because of people like him that laws are made and it is good when they are apprehended by the law. His license has been temporarily suspended, the big question now is will he respect that sentence or will he try to weasle around it or take his chances with flagrant violation???
    NRA Lifetime Member

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    Member CanCanCase's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Akbrownsfan View Post
    Case you mentioned commercial guys in both your posts...........you got any facts there or you just speculating? Beyond that I agree with you and what you are saying. I don't understand your need to bring other users into this. Just like I wouldn't understand if someone said guides do this because of this one documented occurence.
    Sorry for the rushed posts... I was in a bit of a hurry to get over to Admiralty before the storm blew in for the weekend... (just made it and now we're back - got beat up on the hook for 2 nights though...)

    RE: Commercial and fact/speculation:
    Is it not perfectly legal for a commercial gillnetter or seiner to keep and sell some or all of the incidental bycatch? ie: if a guy is gillnetting for cohos and they pull up 10 or 20 undersized kings that are all stressed and dead/dying, what happens to those fish? My understanding is that incidental by-catch in a net fishery is legal to sell. Also, aren't halibut and sablefish long-liners allowed to keep/sell a certain percentage of their by-catch? Now, before anyone goes yelling at me for getting off topic, let's relate that to this situation... IF we assume that the subject of this article is a commercial fisherman, earning his living off of the public resource just as many others do in this state, why can't this guy keep and sell a few extra fish as "by-catch" when so many other folks can? Isn't it rather discriminatory (based on gear type or based on who pays your bills) to say that one user of the resource may over-harvest in one season (as long as they promise to under-harvest the next) while another user of the resource is so strictly limited? OR the converse... If folks here are arguing that this guy got a light penalty for over-harvest of between 2 and 6 fish, where are all the news releases about commercial boats who take one too many over their quota and are being tossed in jail or losing their licenses and serving probationary time?

    RE: My "need to bring other users into this":
    The basis of my objection to tighter regulation on charter boats is that I've always felt that ALL users of a resource should be regulated equally. So far, all I've seen are proposals that give the lions share of the resource to commercial fishermen, and undercut my ability to make a living with a charter boat. Keep in mind, I derive NO direct or tangible benefit from the fish resources themselves. Remember? I can't sell the fish to make a buck. The person who benefits from catching a fish on my boat is the angler. Not only can I not fish for my family's food while I'm out on the water with clients, but I can't make any money on the fish or even the SPORT FISHING LICENSE that I sold my guests so they could legally sport or personal use fish. The guy who told his client to keep a king while a section of river is closed is no different from the guy in this article, and neither of them are any different from a commercial boat who robs my personal use crab pot or a long-liner who over-harvests by a few pounds... So why is SOME over-harvesting or by-catch legal and other (of much lesser quantity) not? Why do some "offenders" get berated as the scum of the earth and others have their over-harvest/by-catch legalized?

    -Case
    M/V CanCan - 34' SeaWolf - Bandon, OR
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

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