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Thread: .411 Ryan?

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    Red face .411 Ryan?

    I understand that there's nothing new under the sun,(except for what's about to happen in D.C. pretty soon), yet I happened upon this .411 Ryan cartridge and thought it quite interesting. Taking the old 400/375 H&H Nitro Express (240 Weatherby blown out) and straightening it to .411...? What I've seen of it shows a body taper of .010 out from center from base to mouth. Do you think it will still cycle in and out of the chamber if it's increased to .416..? Will it work? or should it remain at .411? Thoughts?

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    Interesting caliber. It uses a belt/Rim diameter of .473" (as the 30-06). The body diameter at the base is .453" and the mouth diameter is .433". This give .020" of taper to the body for the 2.5" length (actually 2.3" with out the belt/head area) I've seen good results with less taper, and generally these dims are max for brass and the base will likely not be .453", something less. I have a .411" wild cat that has a max base diameter of .506" with a shoulder diameter max of .486" but usually the brass is only .500" when new so at best case it has only .020" of taper, in a body length of about 2.0". It works fine and there has never been a stuck case or even a tight lift yet. I don't think .005" more bullet diameter would be a problem, you of course would need a diifferent chamber reamer.

    The chamber reamer drawing for the 411 Ryan shows a mouth diameter maximum (the diameter of the reamer at that point) to be .4360", only .003" larger than the design maximum diameter of the cartridge brass. Using the .433" mouth diameter and subtracting the .411" bullet there is .022" of brass thickness or .011" on each side. It won't be that thick but you must allow for that possibility. Just add the .005" bullet diameter to the forward dimensions of the reamer drawing and have a reamer made.

    Now to add some practicality to this I think the 411 Ryan is is a 405 Winchester ballistically and that caliber can be throttled up in a strong gun like a Ruger No. 1. The ballistics of the Ryan give 2400 fps to the 300 grain Hornady bullet with 53.0 grains of RL-7, that is almost exactly what I get from the 405 in the Ruger with the same charge. And that is the practical limit for both of them. My 411 wildcat will reach 2600 fps easily from a 20" barrel but it does hold more powder. I have always liked the 411 calibers. In a rifle you can use the 41 mag revolver bullets and go all the way up to 400 grains in bullet weight. The 350 Swift A-frame and 330 Kodiaks as well as the 325 and 350 grain Hawk bullets do great service for most any hunting need. The 350 has higher sectional density than the 350 in a 416 and is a better performer generally than the same weight in the 416. You would want for little with that bullet regardless of the size of the beast. Penetration will be awesome. There are many bullets available for the .411" bore. They are a little harder to find but I now have a good stock of them and it just takes a little looking and wait for the order. I have some good 416's also but I really like the .411" bore and it's many bullets.

    The reamer for the 411 Ryan is available now and you could be shooting the gun months sooner than making your own. If this is a caliber that tickles you, I wouldn't want to push the envelope just to go to a 416 bore. Kreiger has .411" barrels in stock now and you could be up and running real soon. I say, stay with the 411 and give it a shot.
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    Mr. Murphy, I thank you again for taking the time out to respond to my "wildcat" interests and questions. I am developing a appreciation for these medium bore yet "mild" cartridges. Some time ago I built a rifle in .358 on a WSM case. Yes, it produces incredible tasting Moose steaks, however now having aquired a sweet little Ruger#1 Limited in 35 Whelen, with which I've taken a little over a half dozen Whitetail, I'm beginning to think that the additional 300FPS of the 358wsm is really unessessary even for those aformentioned Moose. I am just really impressed with the power and consistiant performance of that Whelen...every time. There are some questions that I have concerning the .411 bullets at the 411 RYAN velocities. I shoot the A-Frame in my 358wsm and the TSX in the Whelen. My question to you is, will the RYAN push "expanding" type bullets fast enough to indeed do just that, "expand." I'm pulling from experience (your experience) ahead of bullet sales reps. Again, thanks for all the shared info on the .411 vs. 416 when it comes to this particular case, it make the choice pretty straight forward. And yes, thank you Alaskans for being an example to the rest of our country, and for sharing your "Sarah" with us...it's so refreshing.

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    If you use Barnes bullets you should get expansion down to 1400fps or so. At the velocities attainable with this cartridge it might be most effective with a WFN hard cast gas checked bullet. Just my .02 though good luck.

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    411 Hawk may be another good one to try. It has more capacity than the 240 brass.

    It uses cheaper 30-06 brass too. Although it is possible to use 30-06 brass to make the belted cases of the 240 WBY.

    This is a comment on the 411 Hawk from another forum board.

    I've been collecting data on the various 40-06's for some time and had Z-Hat build a .411 Hawk for me. It is a great rifle/cartridge and I have had no problems headspacing the cartridge.

    Mike Brady of Northfork bullets did extensive testing on this cartridge and recommends the 300 grain Northfork at 2500 fps. I'm currently shooting the 325 grain at 2450 fps. The cartridge is pleasent to shoot, but I have not taken any game with it yet.

    Sighted in 3.5 inches high at 100 yds, I remember being 9 inches low at 300 yds and still having over 2600 ft-lbs of enery remaining. Compaired to the 30-30 as having 1800+ ft-lbs of energy at the muzzle.

    It has been used on Alaska bears and I'm told (Alaska guide Phil Shoemaker's comments to my questions about his .411) you can't tell any difference out to 200 yds when compaired to the 375 H&H on bears.
    Some 411 Hawk reading http://www.z-hat.com/411%20Hawk.htm
    "You have given out too much reputation in the last 24 hours, try again later".

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    I had dabbled with the 400 Whelen some years ago and always wanted a good rifle in that caliber but here recently I've been studying the 411 Hawk and I do think that is a good round. There isn't much shoulder there but seemingly enough for consistant headspace. I like the idea that the shoulder is moved forward , the '06 has more than enough neck anyway. With the headstamped brass and load data available for the Hawk cartridges now it is even better.

    I did some development work a few years ago with a rimmed series of cartridges for single shot rifles which are based on the 405 Winchester and the 30 caliber version is essentially a 30-06. It is rather ironic we took a good 40 caliber and necked it down to various neck diameters and we took the 30-06 and necked it up to various neck diameters. I guess it is just something to play with.....I never had a puppy.
    Is there nothing so sacred on this earth that you aren't willing to kill or die for?



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