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Thread: Barnes TSX copper tripple shock help??

  1. #1

    Default Barnes TSX copper tripple shock help??

    I'm wondering if anyone has a good load for a Win 300 mag / Win model 70 using Barnes 180TSX. I'm getting wild results with several loads. I use COL 3.52 because that is as long as a Win model 70 magazine will allow, but there is a lot of play room before the bullet touches, like maybe 1/4 inch.

    Anyway, Ive tried at $1.00 each IMR 4831 69.5 to 71 grains (five rounds each 1/2 grain) and 71to 72 of IMR 4350.

    Actually, looking at the targets from the last year the 4831 loads and 4350 shot wild 4' inch groups but in the same wild places (different places between powders), so it ain't me flenching expecting the punishment of the 300 Win.

    I like a quarter size 100 yr group. Has anyone else had this problem? Any recipies with IMR 4831/4350 without watering down to 30-36 velocities?

  2. #2

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    Try seating them to the OAL that Barnes specifies. From my experience with them in 3 different calibers they like a jump before the rifling. Here's a link to Barnes data and if you have anymore questions or problems call Ty at Barnes:

    http://www.barnesbullets.com/images/300WinMagWeb.pdf

  3. #3

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    Ty is a good person to talk to at Barnes, very helpful about anything. Barnes also recomends a seating depth that gives the TTSX/TSX/MRX a little jump to the lands, but a 1/4 inch is a whole lot of play. I would recomend seating a few at the recommended .050 off the lands depth and feeding them single shot to see what results you get. If it's good, I see a few options for you... Seat at this depth and use as a single shot, modify your mag if possible, or find another bullet. 1/4 inch sounds way out to lunch to me, but that's just me.

    From the Barnes site...

    3. Where do I seat the Triple-Shock, Tipped TSX and MRX bullets?
    Answer. We recommend seating these bullets .050″ off the lands {rifling} of your rifle. This length can be determined by using a “Stoney Point Gauge” or other methods. You do not have to seat the bullet at, or on one of the annular rings.

    http://www.barnesbullets.com/informa...sx-guidelines/

  4. #4
    Member Matt's Avatar
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    Who would want to make their repeater into a single shot?

  5. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by Matt View Post
    Who would want to make their repeater into a single shot?
    I wouldn't consider it a viable alternative either...

    Matt did you get that load data I posted?

  6. #6
    Member Matt's Avatar
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    Yes, I did. Thanks. I'd really like to have that new Barnes loading manual, but it's hard to come by locally. Might have to get it online.

  7. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by Matt View Post
    Who would want to make their repeater into a single shot?
    Actually, a lot of guys who get their rigs customed for long range shooting do just that. As for me, I would want a repeater.

    If akrifle's seated bullets, that give acceptable performance wont fit his mag, then..... not much choice is there?

    This sure is a strange one to me, that handloaded bullets would be this far off in COL

  8. #8
    Member RMiller's Avatar
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    If 3.52 is as long as you can go then drop down in .030 increments. Or whatever floats your boat.

    I did the same thing with my 30-06. I loaded some at 3.280, 3.320, 3.360 and one other. The 3.360 seemed to give the best group so I went with that. I shot three shot groups with each.

    Going up or down in O.A.L. does similiar to what going up or down in velocity does. It changes the barrel harmonics like a B.O.S.S. does. There will be more than one sweet spot. Using the O.A.L. rather than powder charge will not effect velocity so much either.

    I like to find the powder/velocity combo that I like then I will adjust O.A.L. for the accuracy I like. It really is as simple as that.

    What is not so simple is that I often have had to allow for much larger groups for hunting with Barnes bullets. Before I did much adjustments on length that is. It is easy for me to live with a 3" at 100 yard group since I dont shoot past 300 yards. A quarter sized group you may want to try a benchrest forum. Although I am sure there will be lots here who can easily best that. Just ask them.

    I did get some good for me groups of just over an inch in the prone position with the 30-06 above. I dont practice from benches since I cant ever seem to find that kind of rest in the woods.

    My last 300 win mod 70 liked my 200 grain Barnes TSX (roughly an inch yes I was cheating at the concrete benches of the Cushman range) more than My barnes XBT loads that I tried for it.

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by RMiller View Post
    I dont practice from benches since I cant ever seem to find that kind of rest in the woods.
    I don't practice from benches either, but I do get my baselines there. From the bench, I find out what my rifle and load can do.... then once I know that, I find out what I can do with my rifle and load.... offhand, leaning, prone, or what have you.

    Bench shooting is mostly about what your rifle and load can do... not you

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by akrifle View Post
    I'm wondering if anyone has a good load for a Win 300 mag / Win model 70 using Barnes 180TSX. I'm getting wild results with several loads. I use COL 3.52 because that is as long as a Win model 70 magazine will allow, but there is a lot of play room before the bullet touches, like maybe 1/4 inch.

    Anyway, Ive tried at $1.00 each IMR 4831 69.5 to 71 grains (five rounds each 1/2 grain) and 71to 72 of IMR 4350.

    Actually, looking at the targets from the last year the 4831 loads and 4350 shot wild 4' inch groups but in the same wild places (different places between powders), so it ain't me flenching expecting the punishment of the 300 Win.

    I like a quarter size 100 yr group. Has anyone else had this problem? Any recipies with IMR 4831/4350 without watering down to 30-36 velocities?
    I have trouble sometimes. I have trouble with the 3.52" length having no contact with the rifling in your rifle. WoW! Thats a lot of lead even for that long ogive TSX.

    The 300 WM has a max length of 3.340". Any magazine greater than that is gravy. You're lucky there. I just finished with some 180 TSX's in a 300 WM for a fellow I loaded some 180 X's (without the grooves) last year. I used the same load, after trying a couple more. His rifle was a M70 Stainless Classic. I was about .042" from the lands at 3.410", I think that was magazine length. The load was 76.0 grains of RL-22 with the 180 grain TSX, W-W brass and CCI-250 primers. That was 3107 fps average of 6 shots, and all six were about 1". Another load in his rifle was with H4831 at 75.0 grains gave 3015 fps and shot as well. As good as I could hold over cheap sand bags. He claimed a better three shot group and set out to kill something. With IMR 4831 you would want about 72.0 to 73.0 grains for a good load for the TSX and about 3050 fps. My most accurate powder in general for the caliber is RL-22.

    Of all the belted mags the 300 Winny has been the most consistantly accurate for me with hunting loads. Meaning it is rare to find a rifle that won't group well with decent loads. Sometimes when we haven't shot a rifle for a whole year it is rough to get one to shoot. We need to accustom the pector muscle to the beating. It is possible that your gun is copper fouled and may need a good cleaning.
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  11. #11
    Moderator Paul H's Avatar
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    Some guns just don't seem to like them. That said, start out by getting your bore well and goodly cleaned. After running your typical solvent through to get out the powder foulding I alternate between jb compound and barnes cr-10 until I don't get any more blue patches. This can take quite a while. The barnes bullet can be quite fickle about jacket fouling in the bore, so start squeeky clean and then work up loads.

    The way I've worked up tsx loads is opposite of most. I run them kissing the lands to find max charge and see where they are shooting, then try the best load at 10, 25 and 50 thousands off the lands.

    I'd also suggest varying charges by 1 full grain and shooting 3 shot groups. No reason to try and fine tune by 1/2 gr and shoot 5 shot groups to get into the ballpark.

    If the gun shoots you shouldn't have much problem getting 3 into a qaurter size group, but as I said, get the bore squeeky clean before putting any more of them down range.

  12. #12

    Default Barnes TSX

    Thanks, guys. I did call Barnes and they suggested trying the 200 grain flat base TSX. Additionally, I didn't say earlier, but my grouping was a horizonal line. A fellow at work says that that means I'm loading too hot???? (there were no signs on the cases). He used the rifle once and said that it loved the old factory Win 220 silver tips. So maybe my rifle likes heavier bullets. I'll give it a try with the 200 TSX Barnes. Barnes did say that some bullets just do not like some guns and their bullets like .050 of slop (3.34 COAL). Barnes claims to get their best 180 and 200 grain groups with IMR 4831.

    Also, I do use a bench rest...........why not? I know that I will not have that advantage while hunting, but it is comforting to know that my bullets go exactly where I want then to, I just owe it to the critter. And, I cannot live with a 3 inch group at 100 yds. Although I very seldom consider it, and my German instructors would roll over, I've taken game at 400 and 500 yds and not really a bubbas actual 125 yards. 3 inches at 100 could be 3 feet out that far. I'm still open to all of the expertise here.

  13. #13

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    The 200 gr FB has a pretty poor BC, but if you're not planning shots over 300 yds, no big deal. I would still try loading a few 180's and seating them .050 off the lands just for kicks. That way if the 180's shot well, you would know if the extra slop was the factor.

    Also, the rcomendations to clean th barrel are good too. But try shooting the 180's first. It would be educational. Just my $.02

  14. #14

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    I think the 200gr. TSX would be my .30 caliber bullet of choice for AK. .423 is plenty in the B.C. dept. and with it comes a very good S.D of .301. If you go with the 4831 at 2750fps. and a 200yd. zero you will be 2" high at 100 and 8.3 low at 300yds. That is plenty flat enough for any big game hunting under most conditions.

    I would echo the earlier sentiments of making sure that the rifle is ABSOLUTELY copper free before you go out again.

    GOOD LUCK!!! Be sure to let us know how it turns out.

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    Member RMiller's Avatar
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    Sounds like some more to try anyways.

    If you cant hit with the 200 at long range chances are a 180 wont help.

    3" at 100 is only 12" at 400 BTW.

    My rifle will verticle string shots with a hot barrel. Are you letting the barrel cool before shooting groups?
    "You have given out too much reputation in the last 24 hours, try again later".

  16. #16

    Default Barnes TSX

    Yeah.....I probably did not allow time for it to cool down. It was quite warm when I finished. I'm gonna try the 200grn @.050 COL and will report back in about 10 days. I know that 3 inches is fine for some folks, but my 1917 Swedish 6.5x55 mauser model 96 spoiled me with 100 yd ragged holes ans just a 2.5 scout scope. I like a small group.

  17. #17
    Member RMiller's Avatar
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    I like small groups too maybe my new glasses will help.
    "You have given out too much reputation in the last 24 hours, try again later".

  18. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by RMiller View Post
    I like small groups too maybe my new glasses will help.
    Ain't that the truth...when you have to start shooting from memory it's time for some better ones I guess.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by MontanaRifleman View Post
    Ty is a good person to talk to at Barnes, very helpful about anything. Barnes also recomends a seating depth that gives the TTSX/TSX/MRX a little jump to the lands, but a 1/4 inch is a whole lot of play. I would recomend seating a few at the recommended .050 off the lands depth and feeding them single shot to see what results you get. If it's good, I see a few options for you... Seat at this depth and use as a single shot, modify your mag if possible, or find another bullet. 1/4 inch sounds way out to lunch to me, but that's just me.

    From the Barnes site...

    3. Where do I seat the Triple-Shock, Tipped TSX and MRX bullets?
    Answer. We recommend seating these bullets .050″ off the lands {rifling} of your rifle. This length can be determined by using a “Stoney Point Gauge” or other methods. You do not have to seat the bullet at, or on one of the annular rings.

    http://www.barnesbullets.com/informa...sx-guidelines/
    I'm not picking on you, this is just on your post, so hang in there.

    I know this is off subject, well, I guess it is but I have to comment about the Barnes seating philosophy. Barnes recommends seating their bullets starting at .050" off the lands because it would not be wise to start with any of the loads in the manual with the bullet jammed into the lands. Not that the loads are bad, they are good. Not that starting with the bullet into touching the lands would be so bad, but if the load you start with is a little high for your rifle, jamming the bullet into the lands would make it worse. Also barnes has no way of knowing how much grunge is in your rifle's chamber. The Barnes X series of bullets are solids. Meaning the part of the bullet shank that meets the lands is solid copper and less forgiving of jamming into the lands than any of the cup and core or partition bullets. Special considerations must be given the NorthFork, the TBBC and the solid bulkhead Swift A-frame bullets also. Accuracy may or not be better at some given distance from the lands but I do believe the "Start with the bullet .050" off the lands" is for safety reasons. I have never found the best accuracy with any high pressure modern caliber load with a bullet so seated at .050" off the lands.

    Now on to this little issue with loss of accuracy with the TSX's. If we shoot four inch groups with any gun/load/bullet combo it is a pretty serious accuracy failing. "Jiggling" the bullet back and forth a few thousandths won't fix that problem. Regardless of the bullet used. TSX's do like to shoot better from clean and smooth barrels. Not new barrels that have never been lapped or shot in. Not that some new rifles don't have very smooth barrels because some do but also, some don't. Four inch groups can come form fouled barrels. They can also come from poor shooting technique (sorry akrifle), poor sighting equipment, poor stock fit/bedding or other rifle failing such as muzzle crown. The number one cause I have found for rifles that don't shoot worth a crap (besides the shooter) has been fouling. Dirty grungy uncleaned rifles shoot poorly and no amount of load adjustment or or seating depth change will correct that. I don't know of the source for the poor grouping in this case but that is a general reasoning, in my experience.

    Have any of you found a four inch group to shrink into a 1" group by adjusting seating depth?

    Have any of you found the TSX's to shoot their best at .010" to .020" off contact?

    Generally I don't load any hunting load with contact less than .030" regardless of how they shoot because in the field it is possible to get dirt and debris into a chamber and it is safer to keep a little slop in the throat. When the rifle gets dirty carbon can build up at the that point and cause a safety issue as well. For these same reasons we don't want tight match chambers in a hunting rifle either. Feel free to disagree.

    I have talked with Ty at Barnes and he says that the .050" is "primarily an accuracy thing" and that generally the TSX's give better accuracy a ways off the lands and to start with .050" then go back meaning more clearance from the lands to .070", .090" or even .100" and some "reports from the field". Mostly accuracy isn't improved by getting closer. Well that is generally the opposite of my experience with lead core bullets. Also the most accurate rifle i've ever seen with TSX's was a pre-64 Winchester with a very smooth barrel that refused to shoot partitions within 6". I shot a few 168 TTSX's at .010" of the lands and it made one hole with 4 bullets through it. It never shot another brand of bullets in less than 2". Sooooooooo! That's shootin'.
    Last edited by Murphy; 09-03-2008 at 08:46.
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  20. #20
    Member Big Al's Avatar
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    This is an interesting topic. First of all the idea of adjusting seating jam, or from bullet jump to jam is going to shrink any group by as much as 1/2" is just not gong to happen. A bad crown from say cleaning rod wear is not going to shrink a group by the same margin, ain't going to happen. Doing things for a hunting rifle that folks do for a all out target rifle ain't going to gain anything for anybody. It takes a purpose built rifle to see major gains in a rifle along with a lot of other special purpose items to see these 0.250 groups. Not the least of which is a shooter that can read the wind.

    I remember a vary good friend of mine telling me one time, it's a lot harder than it looks to shoot small groups. This was after shooting a rifle that would agg a 0.250 five shot group or better any day. There is far more to aligning the wires and pulling the trigger.

    I will say this, any time I see a rifle fall off for accuracy, the first thing I think and address is the barrel for fouling. NEXT is the scope and mounts.

    There is a long list of things that fall under needs to be checked after the first two thing mentioned above. One of the best ways I know to shake out a problem is to get my hands on some good quality bullets and load them Sour bullets can come from a barrel that just flat out won't shoot them. It happens a lot more often than most people know. What you want to shoot, may not be what the barrel wants to shoot. (I'm talking for accuracy here) Get some 180's or 190's Sierra match bullets and see how they do. You have to know what the gun is capable of first before you can have a feel for your problems.

    We have had a lot of discussions on this web-site about cleaning barrels. There has been no lack of information on the subject. I think you would be shocked if you knew how few people have cleaned their rifles, ever. I'm no longer shocked as I have dealt with the general pubic for decades. I have to say that the majority of the shooting public does not even own cleaning equipment proper or other wise. On top of this you have a lack of knowledge of how to clean a rifle.
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