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Thread: The Same old Hype?

  1. #1
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    Default The Same old Hype?

    I just received my Sports Afield magazine yesterday and over my morning caffeine today I was perusing through and found an ad from Hornady concerning the new and up and coming Ruger 300 and 338 RCM cartridges for which Hornady is loading ammunition. Here are the claims.

    * Optimized case geometry delivers more velocity with 10-15% less powder.

    * Longer barrel life.

    * Less recoil, muzzle blast & flash.

    * Superior temperature stability from -15F to +140F.

    * A compact package that doesn't compromise performance.

    * 300 RCm 180 grain SST 2900 fps.

    * 338 RCM 225 grain SST 2710 fps.

    They don't state the barrel length of these velocities but the rifles are only made in 20" barrels.

    Have we not seen these claims before? What is different this time?
    Is there nothing so sacred on this earth that you aren't willing to kill or die for?



  2. #2
    Member Float Pilot's Avatar
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    Good on Pancakes,
    More miles per gallon
    Melts in your mouth, not on your hands
    Mom and Sis will love it for bath time fun...
    Floatplane,Tailwheel and Firearms Instructor- Dragonfly Aero
    Experimental Hand-Loader, NRA Life Member
    http://site.dragonflyaero.com

  3. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by Float Pilot View Post
    Good on Pancakes,
    More miles per gallon
    Melts in your mouth, not on your hands
    Mom and Sis will love it for bath time fun...
    HA!!! HA!!! HA!!! YOU MADE ME HURT MYSELF That is the best way of putting it that anybody could have come up with. COOL!!!!
    A GUN WRITER NEEDS:
    THE MIND OF A SCHOLAR
    THE HEART OF A CHILD
    THE HIDE OF A RHINOCEROS

  4. #4

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    The difference is that it is not about the WSM line of cartridges this time.
    A GUN WRITER NEEDS:
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    THE HEART OF A CHILD
    THE HIDE OF A RHINOCEROS

  5. #5
    Member Darreld Walton's Avatar
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    Default New Rifleman article...

    What I got out of the article in the new American Rifleman is that it'll do what the WSSM's will do WITH the 20" barreled rifles. Not a huge fan of the 'shorts', and I'm not ready to dump the standard chambered rifles I have and run out and grab one, BUT, I wouldn't mind wringing one out, either.
    Apparently, the claims hold up when actually run over the chronograph by someone who knows what he's doing. Maybe a bit more than hype this time. A carbine length rifle giving me that kind of performance might be interesting in an alder thicket, but not quite what I'd want for a cross canyon shot at a coyote.....

  6. #6
    Member Big Al's Avatar
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    Does this come as a surprise to anyone? Didn't you figure out the hype when you were a kid? 1967 the first time I saw a copy of RIFLE magazine and later HANDLOADER magazine. As a teenager I had finally found a magazine that had got away from "most" of the hype. SHOOTING TIMES was another. Now it Precision Shooting and has been for the last 15 years. I just find the hype to be a major pain in the posterior.

    The vast majority of this crap will be hard to find in the next twenty years, The funny thing about this stuff that is sold, it's sold to people that want to believe, not to the folks that will actually test, have the knowledge to understand or has the equipment to evaluate, the latest and greatest.

    These manufacturers know this and count on it. And let the devil take the hind most that figures out the old ctg that kills just the same but does it at 100-200 fps was easier to find ammo for and brass to reload.

    However if you don't have the latest and greatest, you can't kill deer and elk? Makes one wonder how the muzzle loading crowd gets by?
    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tryants." (Thomas Jefferson

  7. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Al View Post
    Does this come as a surprise to anyone? Didn't you figure out the hype when you were a kid? 1967 the first time I saw a copy of RIFLE magazine and later HANDLOADER magazine. As a teenager I had finally found a magazine that had got away from "most" of the hype. SHOOTING TIMES was another. Now it Precision Shooting and has been for the last 15 years. I just find the hype to be a major pain in the posterior.

    The vast majority of this crap will be hard to find in the next twenty years, The funny thing about this stuff that is sold, it's sold to people that want to believe, not to the folks that will actually test, have the knowledge to understand or has the equipment to evaluate, the latest and greatest.

    These manufacturers know this and count on it. And let the devil take the hind most that figures out the old ctg that kills just the same but does it at 100-200 fps was easier to find ammo for and brass to reload.

    However if you don't have the latest and greatest, you can't kill deer and elk? Makes one wonder how the muzzle loading crowd gets by?
    And I thought I was the only one with passion!!

    It is always something newer therefore better and at a point in my life where after thirty years of reloading, shooting and hunting I have come to understand the simplicity and real usefulness of those cartridges that have always worked.

    I have at times in my life chased after what was proclaimed as the latest and greatest since sliced bread and I found myself always coming back to what worked so well for so many years.

    Then you add to the mix the improved bullets, steel in receivers and barrels, along with powders, primers and very good brass and the old cartridges that worked so well for so long are even better.

    I think Big Al said it very well, "The vast majority of this crap will be hard to find in the next twenty years, The funny thing about this stuff that is sold, it's sold to people that want to believe, not to the folks that will actually test, have the knowledge to understand or has the equipment to evaluate, the latest and greatest."
    A GUN WRITER NEEDS:
    THE MIND OF A SCHOLAR
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    THE HIDE OF A RHINOCEROS

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by Murphy View Post
    ...Have we not seen these claims before? What is different this time?
    Uhhh... because they really mean it???

    You guys really crack me up sometimes.. you really do Yeah a lot of marketing hype tends to exagerate reality quite often, but at the same time, technology does advance in all areas including firearms. In a couple of hundred years we have gone from muskets to the array of modern weaponry we now have.

    In fact, was not the 30.06 ... it's glorious self... the result of technological advances in firearms weaponry? Let's read this exerpt from an article on the history of the 30.06...

    The story begins in the 1870s, when the United States, like most world powers at the time, fielded a large-caliber (though it was then classed as "smallbore") black-powder .45 single-shot rifle. The .45-70 Trapdoor Springfield was as successful an arm as any of its competitors (Britain's Martini-Henry, the French Gras, Germany's 71 Mauser, etc.) and threw its 500-grain bullet (the carbine load had a .405-grain bullet) out at some 1,315 feet per second with a bone-crushing muzzle energy of almost 1,600 foot-pounds.

    It was accurate, could be fired at reasonably long ranges and gave pretty good service. But with the perfection of nitrocellulose-based smokeless powders in the 1880s, the equation changed drastically. It was now possible to use less powder in smaller cases with smaller bullets to get better results.

    http://gunsandammomag.com/cs/Satelli...+of+the+.30-06
    Hmmmm... have we not heard this before? I guess we have

    If these claims are true about the RCM cartridges... great... if not, oh well. As for me, I don't see what the fuss is all about? A 180 gr, .30 cal bullet moving 2900 fps... so what?

    Anyway, guns are evolving and before too long we'll have 1000 yd, self guiding cartridges and bullets and all the good ole 30.06's will be hanging on walls and in museum showcases.

    Oh yeah... it does melt in your mouth and not in your hand... if you don't hold it too long : )

  9. #9

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    Now that was a passionate response MontanaRifleman It even made since and was quite an abstract of past history so masterfully thought out as to cause me pause.

    Of course my good fortune will be that when the 30-06 and 7mm Rem Mag are hanging in a museum or on our family's walls, only my picture will remain of me hopefully hanging in my Grand children's house for my great grand children to say, "WOW!! was that our great grand-paw that killed all those trophies with that old 30-06 hanging over the fire place????"




    Yes, the next canyon, across the next stream, up the next ridge and over the top of that mountain, through the next swamp, as I walk between the tall trees feeling the gentle breeze of cool days in October and November in search of another memory with my 30-06, to share with friends and keep until I die. By: Mike Price
    A GUN WRITER NEEDS:
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  10. #10

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    If they ever make a cartridge better than the 30-30 or 44 mag let me know!

  11. #11

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    It's campain season, after all. And just like politicians, you don't know what you've got till after you've committed yourself. Sorting spin from truth is not my favorite activity on either front.

    I'll wait for others to buy, test and report.

    Then I'll wait to see when and if Ruger ever brings out the Hawkeye in a leftie.

    Then I'll wait for a few more years to see if they offer it in anything but 7mag, 30-06 and 300 Winnie.

    I figure If I put $10 in the bank now, it will accrue enough interest by the time I see a leftie Hawkeye in either caliber, that I will probably have accumulated enough in the account to buy a scope at the same time.

    Not holding my breath, even a little bit.

  12. #12

    Smile Yes it is......

    It is how they sell and make money, always something new. Most of us don't wear out a serious hunting rifle. So they go after another generation. Is it better then the .338 Win. Mag. and 30-06 I have been using for most of my life? Maybe. I will have to read about it though because I am to old to switch! Oh yeah, if any of you want to get the latest super duper and best of the best offering and get rid of dad and grampas old and obsolete Mod. 70's to help pay for it let me know please, especially if it's chambered for one of those inefficient and poorly designed belted magnums! Just trying to help.........

  13. #13
    Member Big Al's Avatar
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    "Let your rifle be your constant companion" Thomas Jefferson

    I don't know about the rest of the people out there, but for me I get permanently attached to constant companions.

    It would be rather different for a man or woman not to find a soft spot in there heart for a tool that gives them perfect satisfaction. So much more so because of the physical effort that comes with hauling the tool around in places that are satisfying to the soul.

    When I think of the bone yards that would have been filled by past generations of hunters, using rifles that none of us would have picked today, that gave passed generations complete satisfaction. I personally think that the hunter of the 1880's and 90's felt in the least disadvantaged packing his 44-77 or his 45-90 WINCHESTER 1885 felt the world could never find or produce better.

    Our we victims of advertising? Or are we so far removed from the natural world that we are effected by the lack of common since?
    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tryants." (Thomas Jefferson

  14. #14
    Member hodgeman's Avatar
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    For me- I'll let the market sort it out. If you ever read any late 1800/early 1900s sporting literature you'll find a number of sportsmen decried the cartridge rifle as a "fad" or "impractical". Sears(Nessmuk) comes immediately to mind but there are others.

    The .30-06 while a very good development was only one of several equally good developments in its day- it won the popularity race, largely in part to WW1 and WW2 producing a large volume of surplus rifles in that caliber. The black powder men just hollered. The 30-40 Krag was deemed "good enough" and I haven't seen a box of those rounds in years.

    The magnum era that gave us the 300 and 338 Win Mag cartridges was decried in the sporting press by a number of authors including Townsend Whelen and Jack O'Connor but the .338 and .300 are pretty much standard hunting cartridges in a big part of the world today. Even Roy Weatherby's company is still making rifles despite all the flak his designs received among the pundits. Some really good ideas that came out during that period (ie. 350 Rem Mag) have been relegated to the dustbin of history today.

    I bought the .375 Ruger and was largely skeptical but it does produce the velocity claimed and the rifle is inexpensive enough I'll actually drag it through the woods and not turn it into a museum piece. Will I be able to buy ammo in 20 years? Maybe not. It may be as common as topsoil. Probably not but stranger things have happened.

    Field performance will probably have little influence on whether these cartridges are commercially successful or not. Hate to say it but most of these will perform equally as well 99% of the time over the effective ranges most game is shot at.

    IMHO I'm glad companies are producing new products whether they make any sense to me or not. History is littered with decent ideas that were either before their time or simply over powered by newer ideas. At least in 20 years we'll have something interesting to talk about.

    I wish companies would quit developing new cartridges and get around to developing better rifles instead. I guess cartridge R&D is a lot cheaper than rifle R&D.

  15. #15

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    I resent your remark that the .350 RM is alive and well in my closet at least..lol. I just bought a Ruger All-Weather in .350 RM an loaded some 225 gr. TSX for it.

    Just making fun though I understand your point. IT is a shame though because it was one of Remington's better ideas imo. and every bit as good as the WSM that are all the rage these days.

  16. #16
    Member Darreld Walton's Avatar
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    Default Jack O'Connor was perhaps...

    the most eloquent, when describing 'newfangled' stuff. In one of his books, he describes what must surely have been the conversations going on in the 1895 equivalent of this here board over the then new .30 caliber Winchester round that came to be known as the .30-30. Surely, somewhere, sometime, some ol' sourdough was absolutely certain that some new sport was gonna get et by a bar when he took a poke at it with that puny little thing, then settled back with that .45-120 in his lap, took a tug off the pipe, then raised his cup o' joe and took a snort......
    I think that with all the latest and greatest, there'll surely be some that filter down through use to finally be called a classic. There's also a lot that will fall by the wayside, leaving some fella staring at a rifle at a gunshow in perfect shape, and no cases or ammunition to put in it because the factory somewhere abandoned it as a lost cause.
    Remember the .284 Winchester? Or the .264 Mag? The .25-.30-.35 Remington series? How bout the 256 Hawkeye, or the S&W .22 Jet? There's folks around in pockets here and there that are absolutely convinced that their pet WAS the absolutest most bestest ever made, and can't for the life of them figure out why it went away.
    Some of the new rounds absolutely DO have some valid use, especially if they DO live up to the ad hype. As mentioned, a fly-weight thumper with a stubby barrel that blows fist-sized holes through Sabre-Toothed Meanies might come in REAL handy when having to go through the thick stuff. A bit better in there than, oh, say, that 26" barreled .264 Mag model 70 Westerner.....
    Me? I'm finally cozying up to the notion that I want to put a few bucks out to try a nice controlled feed Model 70 stainless classic in the back room chambered up to .300 WSM. Maybe it'll sit in the back of the safe with the .300 Weatherby or my 7mm Remington's, but I think there's a modicum of use for it. Biggest problem I've got these days is that I don't have the time, assets, or health to hunt and shoot 24-7-365 to justify all the new toys, so when I wanna get serious, I reach for Ol' Reliable,,,,,,but them 6 boys of mine got all the time in the world to get things figgered out.

  17. #17

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    This has been one cool thread of ideas, history, comparisons, hyperbole, analogy, common sense and passion. This has really been fun to read and has exposed the weaknesses and strengths in both arguments of pros and cons on the subject of the new and the old. There are really some thoughtful and smart folks on this forum that don't mind discussion and open forum. Truly both sides of the coin has found it's way into the pocket of our thinking.

    Some of you have got me thinking that I need to pull out the 300WSM A-bolt and give it an other chance and then again I think I will let my son-in-law have it for keeps since his generation seems to like it. WOW!!! I have had some fun with Murphy's thread.
    A GUN WRITER NEEDS:
    THE MIND OF A SCHOLAR
    THE HEART OF A CHILD
    THE HIDE OF A RHINOCEROS

  18. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Al View Post
    "Let your rifle be your constant companion" Thomas Jefferson

    I don't know about the rest of the people out there, but for me I get permanently attached to constant companions.

    It would be rather different for a man or woman not to find a soft spot in there heart for a tool that gives them perfect satisfaction. So much more so because of the physical effort that comes with hauling the tool around in places that are satisfying to the soul.

    When I think of the bone yards that would have been filled by past generations of hunters, using rifles that none of us would have picked today, that gave passed generations complete satisfaction. I personally think that the hunter of the 1880's and 90's felt in the least disadvantaged packing his 44-77 or his 45-90 WINCHESTER 1885 felt the world could never find or produce better.

    Our we victims of advertising? Or are we so far removed from the natural world that we are effected by the lack of common since?
    I have sold some rifles and shotguns but one rifle and shotgun, I will never sell.

    My old tang safety Ruger I will never sell. I literally carried that thing hundreds of miles over many hunting seasons and shot almost all my game with it, including a B&C bighorn ram. The barrel is now worn out and I was going to retire it, but have new plans for it. It is a 7mm Rem Mag and I plan to rechamber to a 7mm Dakota, with a good custom barrel and some good smithing. Someday it will out shoot my 300 WSM and most other 300 mags. And someday, it will belong to one of my sons along with all the horns and heads.

    Are we victims of advertising? Maybe some of us sometimes... I will admit I am drawn to something new that will get the job done better, whether it be lighter and more functional backpacking gear, or a rifle/cartridge/powder/bullet that will shoot flatter, farther, more accurate, more consistant and make a bigger hole, with equal or less powder and gun weight.

    So if I were living at the turn of the century, I would have been all over the .06 and hung my 30.30 and 45.70 on the wall.

    Well now, it's a new century...

  19. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by beartooth View Post
    ...Some of you have got me thinking that I need to pull out the 300WSM A-bolt and give it an other chance and then again I think I will let my son-in-law have it for keeps since his generation seems to like it....
    Whether you pull out the A-bolt or not is debatable, but you might try the 300 WSM again... in like maybe... a Sako

    And if you're planning on hanging that .06 up on the wall next to your pic, you better put a wood stock on it

    Oh yeah, I think I'm probably very close to yer generation

  20. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by MontanaRifleman View Post
    Whether you pull out the A-bolt or not is debatable, but you might try the 300 WSM again... in like maybe... a Sako

    And if you're planning on hanging that .06 up on the wall next to your pic, you better put a wood stock on it

    Oh yeah, I think I'm probably very close to yer generation
    You are to funny MontanaRifleman and please don't tempt me or cause me to even think about another rifle right now. Here is a picture of my Sako TRG Custom 30-06 Ackley Improved. The last time I killed anything with this rifle was almost two years ago when I killed a black bear.


    A GUN WRITER NEEDS:
    THE MIND OF A SCHOLAR
    THE HEART OF A CHILD
    THE HIDE OF A RHINOCEROS

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