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Thread: 300 WSM or any Short mags

  1. #1

    Default 300 WSM or any Short mags

    This may be a dumb questions but I was just wondering why you canít purchase 300 short mag in the T/C Encore?


    If you believed all the advertising and hunting shows it's the best new and improved cartridge, and also the best new improved gun.


    I also get the whole weight thing with the short actions being lighter, that not being a factor in a single shot.

    Thanks,

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    Bernie1,
    This is just a guess but it may have something to do with the Jamison lawsuit settlement and T/C not wanting to pay a % of sales of each WSM chambered rifle to it.

    til later

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    Dont know if it's true or not, but I have been told by numerous people that T/C wont do it because the WSM calibers put too much sideways pressure on the barrel and they are scared of blowing barrels up. That is one of the reasons they wont do the Ultra Ma calibers as well, just too much pressure.

    I'll see if I can dig up the link with the disclaimer in it.

    Tim
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    I talked to the guys at Match Grade Machine about this subject. They told me that high pressures were the reason for not offering those chamberings in a rear locking single shot.

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    As mentioned above, I think the WSMs are proprietary cartridges and royalties have to be paid for every gun chambered, I think I heard in the range of $50-$75. Some custom makers will not make them because of this. Not sure if this is the TC reason.

  6. #6

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    Funny how they do chamber 300 win 7 maggie ect but not the WSM..Also Ruger dropped chambering the WSM years ago for the very same reason..The Jamison lawsuit I believe..

  7. #7

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    Murphy do you know?

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by tjkanavel View Post
    Dont know if it's true or not, but I have been told by numerous people that T/C wont do it because the WSM calibers put too much sideways pressure on the barrel and they are scared of blowing barrels up. That is one of the reasons they wont do the Ultra Ma calibers as well, just too much pressure.

    I'll see if I can dig up the link with the disclaimer in it.

    Tim

    Tim any luck?

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    Moderator Paul H's Avatar
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    Personally I can't see any benefit to a short mag in an encore. You don't have a magazene or bolt to shorten up by going to the short round. Might as well just stick with the old tried and true 300 win mag.

    As to the strength issue of the encore, there are two issues. One is the strength of the barrel, and the other is the back thrust against the frame. T/C came out with the encore as their original break open swap barrel the contender couldn't handle the back thrust of the .308 based rounds, so they increased the strength of the frame to take the back thrust, and increased the barrel diameter from 0.80" to 1.00". Thus was born the encore, which could take the .308 and -06 based rounds as well as the belted mags. But when the short and ultra mags came out, which had a larger still case dia, the encore just isn't enough to handle the back thrust and a 1" barrel is kinda skinny on the chamber of a 0.550" case. Most bolt actions are 1.2" at the chamber by way of comparison.

    If you want a WSM, look at the Kimber Montanna, Hard to find a better match to the WSM in an over the counter light weight bolt action.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bernie1 View Post
    Tim any luck?

    I found this:

    http://www.eabco.com/WSM01.htm
    If you can read this, thank a Teacher.
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  11. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul H View Post
    If you want a WSM, look at the Kimber Montanna, Hard to find a better match to the WSM in an over the counter light weight bolt action.
    Go Sako or Tikka, you wont be sorry.

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    BERNIE1, I really don't know why T/C doesn't do the short mag chamberings... the differance between the body diameter of a belted mag and a wsm is.023" Now I know that you asked nothing about any other single shot rifles in the short mag... but a rechambered, oh say, ruger #1 in .308 win would provide a very strong . 300WSM. I personally like single shots, but that sugestion of the Kimber montana in a wsm chambering is excellent, my dad shoots one...very accurate. I too like the wsm case, I'm shooting a vanguard action with a Pac-Nor .358/300WSM chamber,a very fun moose rifle.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bernie1 View Post
    Murphy do you know?

    I know Rick Jamison.
    Is there nothing so sacred on this earth that you aren't willing to kill or die for?



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    Murphy, No kidding! Been reading him for over 30yrs. He's the one got me hooked on the .300 Winchester Magnum in the S&W 1500. He's GOOD,NO DOUBT. Tell him I said HEY and thanks if you would.

    til later

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    Quote Originally Posted by tjkanavel View Post
    Dont know if it's true or not, but I have been told by numerous people that T/C wont do it because the WSM calibers put too much sideways pressure on the barrel and they are scared of blowing barrels up. That is one of the reasons they wont do the Ultra Ma calibers as well, just too much pressure.

    I'll see if I can dig up the link with the disclaimer in it.

    Tim
    I think the problem with the WSM calibers for some guns is that of bolt thrust and not so much of chamber wall pressure. Also the factory ammo is loaded to record levels of pressure for any cartridge (except maybe Weatherbys) and that coupled with the bolt thrust will sieze actions of certain types, particularly falling blocks such as Ruger #1 and Art Brown's singles. Hand loaded ammo for the factory WSM's and the WSM wildcats are better for any rifle than the overly zealously load factory fodder.

    When you all talk about the law suit, don't you think that allegedly giving a certain individual a few dollars per rifle is chicken feed compared to the many other active lawsuits from safety concerns that every manufacturer suffers from? So are we all blaming Jamison for the demise of the WSM's or the Winchester company? Get real folks.

    This series of calibers are very well designed and bring with them a new family of very strong brass. I have worked with all of them from 6.5 caliber up to 416 and all will produce very effective ballistics in very compact packages. None of them will equal their longer belted counterparts but they are none the less very good cartridge designs regardless of who developed them. I do think the Ruger case and its off spring will be more accepted as they will have fewer skeletons in their closets.
    Is there nothing so sacred on this earth that you aren't willing to kill or die for?



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    Murphy, it wasn't my intent to blame anyone for anything. Was just offering Bernie1 one possible answer to his question. I've got my opinion on that fiasco but I don't do soap operas. And I'm sure he's a GOOD friend.

    til later

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    Quote Originally Posted by 300S&W View Post
    Murphy, it wasn't my intent to blame anyone for anything. Was just offering Bernie1 one possible answer to his question. I've got my opinion on that fiasco but I don't do soap operas. And I'm sure he's a GOOD friend.

    til later

    He's a good guy and very knowledgable in this field of ballistics. I didn't mean to accuse anyone of blaming him here but I have seen that before.

    The point is that his 2 inch 404 Jeffery based calibers are very good. They are so much better to work with than any of the belted magnums. Their ballistics are actually nothing to write home about but working with those cases is so much better from the handloaders perspective than any of the belts. To me that makes them a very worth while improvement. The 404 was an existant case, almost extinct but revived with these and the Dakota calibers. It was always very thick walled and very strong, Jeffery was a strong brass fanatic. The down side of it is that they are a little too fat for most magazines and require special made magazines and followers to work well and even then, the round count is very limited. The Ruger case diameter is better and with a 2.5" case will hold more powder than the 2.5" belted or the full length H&H case (except improved)

    The WSM changed only the bolt head to a rebated .532" from the 404's .545", that is the only difference between them and the Jamison designed family of cases. I've loaded for the 277, 284, 338 and 375 Jamison before I'd ever heard of the WSM's and there were others also. I still have the dies so marked. The only difference is the shell holder. The difference now is that I can get brass for the .532" bolt head very cheaply and they are still good strong cases.
    Is there nothing so sacred on this earth that you aren't willing to kill or die for?



  18. #18
    Moderator Paul H's Avatar
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    I ran some ballpark numbers to compare the .404 based case to the belted basic case. Lets say the .404 case is 0.545" in dia and had 0.020" case walls, that provides an effective base area of 0.200 sq in. The belted basic case is effectively 0.512" at the base, and with the same 0.020" walls has an effective base area of 0.175 sq in. That means the same opperating pressure in the 404 case is being spread over an area 15% larger.

    At 60kpsi the back of the belted case, and hence action sees 10,500 lb, the 404 based case sees 12,000lb. I know it's a much more complex issue than those simple numbers represent, as you have the case gripping the chamber, headspace, brass yield etc.

    T/C didn't set out to build a swap barrel break open to handle the pressure of every conceivable round. The upsized the contender to handle rounds up to the belted mag case, and still have an action that was of a reasonable size to use as both a break open handgun and rifle. The break open action simply is far from the best design for high pressure rounds. That t/c was able to come up with a design that has a sufficient margin of safety for the belted mags is pretty impressive.

    But just as folks have damaged contender frames by running .308 based rounds at .308 pressures, the encore would likely see the same fate if you run wsm or rem ultramag based rounds at full patch pressures.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul H View Post
    I ran some ballpark numbers to compare the .404 based case to the belted basic case. Lets say the .404 case is 0.545" in dia and had 0.020" case walls, that provides an effective base area of 0.200 sq in. The belted basic case is effectively 0.512" at the base, and with the same 0.020" walls has an effective base area of 0.175 sq in. That means the same opperating pressure in the 404 case is being spread over an area 15% larger.

    At 60kpsi the back of the belted case, and hence action sees 10,500 lb, the 404 based case sees 12,000lb. I know it's a much more complex issue than those simple numbers represent, as you have the case gripping the chamber, headspace, brass yield etc.

    T/C didn't set out to build a swap barrel break open to handle the pressure of every conceivable round. The upsized the contender to handle rounds up to the belted mag case, and still have an action that was of a reasonable size to use as both a break open handgun and rifle. The break open action simply is far from the best design for high pressure rounds. That t/c was able to come up with a design that has a sufficient margin of safety for the belted mags is pretty impressive.

    But just as folks have damaged contender frames by running .308 based rounds at .308 pressures, the encore would likely see the same fate if you run wsm or rem ultramag based rounds at full patch pressures.
    And the rearward force is psi times area so increase area at same psi we get more back thrust. And as you say the walls and taper and other smaller factors come into play but bolt thrust for a 404 case head is higher than a .532" given the same cylinder diameter,etc. The larger body of the WSM vs the .532 head makes it greater thrust than the .532" magnums. (More psi per area.)
    Is there nothing so sacred on this earth that you aren't willing to kill or die for?



  20. #20

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    Also the factory ammo is loaded to record levels of pressure for any cartridge (except maybe Weatherbys)

    What pressure level are you atributing to the WSM's? The 338 LApua is 68,000 PSI according the the Lapua web site and I beleive that the Lapua was standardized before the WSM's

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