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Thread: New rules on flying hunters in??

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    Member AKDoug's Avatar
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    Default New rules on flying hunters in??

    I just finished having a conversation with one of my customers that was going to fly out of Happy Valley up north for a caribou hunt. Weather, bad luck and other problems caused them to cancel and come home.

    One of the things I found odd was that his pilot said that there were new rules about taking a group clients to a remote strip in a larger plane then dropping them off individually with cubs at smaller strips. His pilot, a registered guide, said he couldn't do that any more. My customer witnessed the conversation between the wildlife troopers and the pilot, but didn't hear most of it. The only thing I can think of is that the guide isn't a Part 135 opperation?? Any thoughts, or are there new rules? I know lots of air taxis that opperate this way.

  2. #2

    Default I guessing you may not have the story straight.

    Or maybe I misunderstood.

    What I think is the 135 operator was driving the larger plane and the guide was driving the cub...that may even be what you meant but I was not sure....anyway


    Quote Originally Posted by AKDoug View Post
    One of the things I found odd was that his pilot said that there were new rules about taking a group clients to a remote strip in a larger plane then dropping them off individually with cubs at smaller strips.
    Negative. No such rule exists. That's just BS.

    Your customers pilot is lying and hoping to save face. He sold your customer a fairy tale.

    Quote Originally Posted by AKDoug View Post
    His pilot, a registered guide, said he couldn't do that any more.

    you mean the shuttle pilot said he can't do that anymore right?


    Registered 'guides' were never legal to provide drop off services. NEVER.

    Of course assistant guides are not either.

    Registered guides without a 135 operating certificate can not legally provide 'outfitting' services either by the way!

    None the less there are outlaw guides doing this stuff for sure. The FAA is violating people who do this. The troopers and fish and wildlife and park rangers are looking for and reporting these violations too.

    The State troopers (park service-f&w) can not write a FAR violation. They are vigilant and actively co-operating with the FAA though and actually looking for these kinds of activities. When they find them they are shutting them down and reporting to the FAA name dates time and a/c end numbers of those guides (and assistant guides) who are engaging in illegal flight operations.

    Customers of these outlaw guides are reporting these violations to the FAA as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by AKDoug View Post
    I know lots of air taxis that opperate this way.
    There is nothing illegal about air-taxis dropping people off to be shuttled by smaller aircraft. The illegal part would come into play if the 'shuttle' service is not a 135 operator. Guides can not legally conduct those type of aircraft operations.

    135 operators who knowingly engage in this kind of operation are subject to certificate action and liability issues [were there to be an incident or accident involving the shuttle pilot] that might occur involving the illegal flight operations too.

    My guess is your customer was intending on flying out of happy valley with a 135 operator who was going to be driving the bigger plane. The shuttle pilot-guide was driving the cub and not a 135 operator.

    The 135 operator could not get people where they needed to be and was hoping to enlist the 'guide' to do the shuttle. They probably had been doing this all along. Both operators should have known [in a court of law] they were breaking laws.

    The troopers probably checked some earlier camps and in talking to customers found out this was going on and called both a/c operators on it. Now the trooper would be required to report this to the FAA too.

    Your customer was just 'caught' in the middle of a new way of doing business. Your customer was fed a line of bs from the 135 operator and intentionally put at risk by both the 135 operator and the guide.

    Enforcement of the laws regarding aircraft operations and the conduct of guides providing illegal flight services to (not just to hunters) is coming to an end.

    The 'public'; your customer, was just meat to both of these operators. IMO neither of them had any respect for your clients expectations and very likely knowingly and intentionally put him in the middle of and illegal operation at some risk too.

    This thread is the first public indicator that change is coming and public awareness is coming right along with the enforcement.


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    Member AKDoug's Avatar
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    Default

    The 'public'; your customer, was just meat to both of these operators. IMO neither of them had any respect for your clients expectations and very likely knowingly and intentionally put him in the middle of and illegal operation at some risk too.
    I should have clarified that this customer is a customer in my building supply business, which has nothing to do with hunting. He is also my friend.

    Registered guides without a 135 operating certificate can not legally provide 'outfitting' services either by the way!
    I think this is what he got caught up in. I believe my friend is not aware that guides without part 135 licenses cannot be transporters or be for hire for air taxi opperations.

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    Member AKDoug's Avatar
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    Default

    I just got the spelling of the pilot correct and eveything was on the up and up on that end..licensed guide, licensed transporter, current 135 operator, and A.N.W.R. authorized air taxi. I have no idea what the mix up was. I guess I'll just let it die.

  5. #5

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by AKDoug View Post
    I just got the spelling of the pilot correct and eveything was on the up and up on that end..licensed guide, licensed transporter, current 135 operator, and A.N.W.R. authorized air taxi. I have no idea what the mix up was. I guess I'll just let it die.

    Well; I' am sure you are right that everything is on the up now....but it clearly was not when your friend ran into the issue, what ever it was.


  6. #6

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by AKDoug View Post
    I believe my friend is not aware that guides without part 135 licenses cannot be transporters or be for hire for air taxi opperations.

    You and your friend do realize that compliance with rules and regulations regarding aircraft operations and permitted authorizations are NOT your responsibility.

    The 'public' trusts that the operators and those with oversight are protecting our interests.

    Sounds like the Troopers did their job and the operators were taking advantage of your customers "trust".


  7. #7
    Member AKDoug's Avatar
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    Default

    Lots of opperations working out of there..guides, air taxis, etc... That's the problem with second hand info. I was just trying to figure out if something new had come down the line recently.

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    Member AK-HUNT's Avatar
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    Default Doug

    Something new is in fact coming, but didn't think it hit the streets yet. I'll pm you.

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    webmaster Michael Strahan's Avatar
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    Default You sure about that?

    Quote Originally Posted by AVALANCHE View Post
    Registered guides without a 135 operating certificate can not legally provide 'outfitting' services either by the way!
    Avalanche,

    If by "outfitting" you are referring to the definition offered in the Alaska Statutes, it is my understanding that a Registered Guide can in fact provide those services, provided he is licensed for the GUA in which the outfitting is taking place. In other words, he can set up a camp in the field, in one of his Guide Use Areas, and rent that camp and related gear to DIY hunters, providing any level of service the hunters want and the guide wants to provide, all the way from equipment rental to hands-on assistance in the field.

    Perhaps something has changed and I am not aware of it? Do you have different info on this? If so could you provide a reference to the source?

    Thanks!

    -Mike
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    Member algonquin's Avatar
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    Default flying vs. guideing

    This area is being looked at by the FAA and there are several grey areas that the Fed's would like to black and white. It's my understanding that one can fly clients as long as they aren't being charged for the flight, the flight is incidental to the guiding service being provided, the operation cost of the flight can be included in the over-all price of the service, the pilot flying must do the guiding and that person must be a lic. guide and lic. commercial pilot. There are several spins to this and little grey areas but the bottom line with the FAA is usually if you crash you better have your duck in a row and proper insurance to cover personal injury as the insurance company may refuse to pay as they may declare you are operating commercially as an air-taxi. This is only my guess at the rules, best to check with the ANC FAA.

  11. #11
    Member AK-HUNT's Avatar
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    Default gray

    you actually don't have to be a commercial pilot. private and 500 alaska hours. the gray area is that the FAA doesn't necessarily sanction this operation but they won't come out against it either. Lots of opinion (everybody has one) but the regs are listed at http://www.dced.state.ak.us/occ/pub/BGCSStatutes.pdf

    They are black and white.
    The state and faa don't agree. That's the rub. Still gotta follow the regs.

    Strahan is right about the outfitting too. Its in print.

    Again, the link to the regs are above. Don't believe me. I don't necessarily agree with it but its in print.

    Some folks will argue all the points listed. I don't like wearing a seat belt, but its still the law.

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    Member algonquin's Avatar
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    Default

    I Thought that the commercial was required, again its all in the rep. you are talking to at the time. I still wouldn't want to get caught having a incident with a PVT. Lic. , Like you said too many twist to this issue and everybody has an opinion. The real trouble starts when a client tells a inspector he was paying for a charter flight. Glad I don't have to fight this battle.

  13. #13

    Default Yep. I am sure.

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Strahan View Post
    In other words, he can set up a camp in the field, in one of his Guide Use Areas, and rent that camp and related gear to DIY hunters.....
    Nope. That's an illegal operation IF there is any flying of a client included that is not provided by a 135 air carrier.

    Where a client is involved, IF the flight operations do not include guiding then the flight operation must be conducted under part 135 regulations.

    In order for any Alaska guide-pilot flight operation to be legal under the part 91 rules the operation MUST ALSO include lodging AND must be guided.

    Outfitted only is does not meet the part 91 Alaska guide-pilot regulation.

    Nothing the State puts into regulation can supersede any FAR.

    Outfitting has NOTHING to do with guiding. They are entirely different.

    Outfitting by definition does NOT include "guiding". Outfitting can include a dishwasher, camp help, a cook, all sorts of gear, equipment and supplies but.........outfitting does not require AND does not include guiding.

    Please remember....Outfitting is a business. NOT an occupation. Guiding is an occupation.

    BTW.
    For the State of Alaska and the BGCSB to require a guide license to outfit ONLY hunters is a form of economic interference. Such interference is NOT permitted by Federal law.

    The combining of an 'occupational license to guide' and the 'business of outfitting' discriminates one group of users (diy hunters) over every other class of user (fisherman, wildlife viewers ect.) in the same class. This type of discrimination is not permitted by Federal law.

    Anybody with a business license, the proper insurance and the proper land use authorizations is permitted to "OUTFIT" any DIY type outdoor recreation activity. Not just in Alaska but throughout the US; every State in the union.

    In Alaska, combining the guide-outfitter class of licensing in regulation creates economic interference with the business of outfitting and discrimination between user groups of the same class.

    "OUTFITTING" businesses
    throughout the United States; such as those serving hunters, rafters, fisherman, hikers, kyakers, wildlife viewers and any other outdoor user group a person can think of are not required by any other State or Federal law to have a "guide" license or to provide any guide service in order to participate in that economic sector.

    DIY hunters MAY not be "treated" differently than any other groups.
    ...yet the big game commercial hunting regulations are completely infected with special rules that oppress DIY hunters over rafters, kyakers, fisherman, wildlife viewers and on and on.....in favor of the special interest of guides.

    Again; the FEDS don't care what the State regs say. This means all federal laws not just the Federal Aviation Regulations.

    Outfitting hunters will necessarily go back being a business in Alaska; the way it was before 1995 when hunting guides decided for some reason to combine the business of outfitting with the occupation of guiding.

    Sorry about getting side tracked

    So...IF the flight operations don't include guiding the the flight operations where a client is involved must be conducted under part 135 regulations.

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Strahan View Post
    Perhaps something has changed and I am not aware of it?
    The FAR's relevant to this discussion have not changed. Well, not since 1963 anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Strahan View Post
    Do you have different info on this? If so could you provide a reference to the source?
    Maybe the best thing for you to do is call or write Howard Martin. Ask him to interpret the operation you want to believe is OK. Howard is the chief legal council for the FAA in Alaska.


  14. #14

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by AK-HUNT View Post
    you actually don't have to be a commercial pilot. private and 500 alaska hours.
    Right you don't have to hold a commercial pilot license.

    AND you don't even have to have 500 hours of time in Alaska or anywhere else in the world if you read the FAR's. That's just something the guides came up with....that state regulation is irrelevant to the FAA.



    Quote Originally Posted by AK-HUNT View Post
    the gray area is that the FAA doesn't necessarily sanction this operation but they won't come out against it either.
    State regulations are irrelevant to the FAA.....until the FAA decides that the State is creating preemptive regulations.

    The only grey area for the FAA is deciding if they need to take the State to court over creation of preemptive regulations. The question has been asked and not definitively answered. For sure NOT ruled out as a course of action likely necessary to bring all pilots and flight operations in Alaska into compliance.

    Quote Originally Posted by AK-HUNT View Post
    Lots of opinion (everybody has one) but the regs are listed at http://www.dced.state.ak.us/occ/pub/BGCSStatutes.pdf

    They are black and white.
    And irrelevant to the licensing of pilots and authorized flight operations which may only be regulated by the FAA.

    Quote Originally Posted by AK-HUNT View Post
    The state and faa don't agree. That's the rub.
    Federal Aviation Regulations don't have to comply with what the State of Alaska puts into regulation. That fact is never going to change no matter what the spin the State puts on federal aviation regulations.


    Quote Originally Posted by AK-HUNT View Post
    Still gotta follow the regs.
    Thats right and nobody with a pilot license or an airplane better be thinking that because the BGCSB regulations say you can or you can not....that it's all lined up with the FEDS interpretation of their regulations.


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    Default Transport of hunters

    Its pretty simple, guides can outfit and transport the hunters, BUT, they must remain in the field. That is what happened to the biggest guide/transporter in Happy Valley.

    Terry

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