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Thread: Larry Willis sizing die?

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    Default Larry Willis sizing die?

    Anybody here have an experienced opinion on it? http://www.larrywillis.com/mainpage.html

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    Member Big Al's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by idahoducker View Post
    Anybody here have an experienced opinion on it? http://www.larrywillis.com/mainpage.html
    Yes and worth ever cent I paid for it. I no longer have to turn down free brass with belted case because of the die. A guy gave me over a 1,000 once fired .300 WIN cases. All, now are good to go. (I have one .300 mag and have never shot it) All the brass functions and feeds through my chambering. I use it on all my fired brass for .375H&H cause I have several rifles with that chambering, I no longer have to keep brass seperate.

    Sure does make life easier for folks that use belted brass.

    Had mine about four years now (I think) and love it.
    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tryants." (Thomas Jefferson

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    I have one and it does work as advertised. Invaluable if you shoot expensive belted mags such as the Weatherby series of cartridges.

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    So what happens to belted cases if they aren't sized with this die?

    And why can't I use free once fired belted caases in my rifle after being sized in the old fashioned sizing dies.

    I guess I've missed something. I've only loaded about a hundred thousand once (or more) fired belted brass, the work fine and last a long time. What gives?

    I'm sure this guy's die is effective but it may well be a solution to a non existing problem.
    Is there nothing so sacred on this earth that you aren't willing to kill or die for?



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    Member Big Al's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Murphy View Post
    So what happens to belted cases if they aren't sized with this die?

    I do not own a die from a major manufacturer that sizes to the top of the belt.

    And why can't I use free once fired belted cases in my rifle after being sized in the old fashioned sizing dies.

    Because none of my dies for belted brass sizes to the top of the belt.

    I guess I've missed something. I've only loaded about a hundred thousand once (or more) fired belted brass, the work fine and last a long time. What gives?

    Not all of us lead a good clean life? The re-loading GODS don't smile on all as they do you?

    I'm sure this guy's die is effective but it may well be a solution to a non existing problem.
    If you size brass in a die and the brass won't chamber, would you consider that a non- existing problem?


    Did you read the link?

    Good for you Murphy. You must lead a vary good life not to have had problems with belted cases fired in different chambers.

    Do you really think people would shell out 90.00 bucks for a die they had no use for? Just to say, "hey, I got one" or use for show and tell?

    Maybe you think the guy that makes these dies was just sitting around one day, invented a non existing problem and made dies just to convince people they are having a problem? And then to sell them for 90 bucks. I've got a few rifles in .375H&H that after the third load and full length sizeing won't chamber the brass fired in that same chamber. That die I blew 90 bucks for, takes care of the problem. I guess you think that there is no expansion forward of the belt?

    You are a neck size only guy? You don't full length size? You don't have problems chambering brass with multiple firings in the same chamber with belted brass?

    LUCKY YOU, what have I been doing wrong for the last 40 plus years, that caused me to blow 90.00 bucks for a die I really didn't need?
    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tryants." (Thomas Jefferson

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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Al View Post
    If you size brass in a die and the brass won't chamber, would you consider that a non- existing problem?

    I don't find that to be the case, my dies size all my belted cases all 21 different calibers, to where they fit any chamber.

    Did you read the link?

    Yes I read the link, I even have one of the dies, it is a pain to use but works just fine, it just isn't needed.

    Good for you Murphy. You must lead a vary good life not to have had problems with belted cases fired in different chambers.

    Yes I do but I don't make the same mistake twice and I learn from my experiences.

    Do you really think people would shell out 90.00 bucks for a die they had no use for? Just to say, "hey, I got one" or use for show and tell?

    Yes, I think most people do!

    Maybe you think the guy that makes these dies was just sitting around one day, invented a non existing problem and made dies just to convince people they are having a problem? And then to sell them for 90 bucks. I've got a few rifles in .375H&H that after the third load and full length sizeing won't chamber the brass fired in that same chamber. That die I blew 90 bucks for, takes care of the problem. I guess you think that there is no expansion forward of the belt?

    The dies I use size the case just above the belt. The belt hits the cut out ridge inside the sizing die when adjusted for full length sizing. I have on many occasions sized and fired belted calibers as many as 15 times and they would chamber in any of the rifles of the same caliber on my shelf.
    I don't know what dies you use but mine work just fine.


    You are a neck size only guy? You don't full length size? You don't have problems chambering brass with multiple firings in the same chamber with belted brass?

    When just neck sizing some times the cases get to a point where they don't fit, then I f/l size or run them through a body die and they are once again sized all the way down to the belt. If the belted cases are made out of spec in diameter at the belt and if the belt cut of the chamber is minimum or below specs, the belt can prevent a case from rechambering in a rifle. The belt needs to be sized down and those dies would be real handy to have a round if this was a common fault, it is not. I've seen that twice in well over 100 rifles and tens of thousands of rounds loaded for them.

    LUCKY YOU, what have I been doing wrong for the last 40 plus years, that caused me to blow 90.00 bucks for a die I really didn't need?

    Well I really don't know what all you've been doing wrong but there's nothing wrong with admitting you have've made mistakes .

    Is there nothing so sacred on this earth that you aren't willing to kill or die for?



  7. #7
    Member Big Al's Avatar
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    I have two sets of dies for the .375 H&H. One set of RCBS that I faced off and removed .030". That did nothing, a second set of Redding, that was no better. So what's the trick and how did you make stock dies work?

    Whatever the cure, please pass it along, the rest of the world needs to know.
    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tryants." (Thomas Jefferson

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    Well....I do this a lot.

    First of all, I've got nothing bad to say about this collet sizing die or the man or the company that makes it. It works as advertised, his service is very good and though the die is pricey it is not out of line with any single custom die available today.

    I am just saying I haven't seen the need for it with my dies. My belted dies are Redding, RCBS and Forster Bonanza, the latter is my full set (12) of Weatherby dies. Most of the others and I think I have 28 sets of Redding belted dies. Some are custom and some of the customs are RCBS but they offer no custom dimension in the base of the dies.

    I measured 19 Redding f/l sizer dies for belted calibers. They measured, with monotonous regularity, .5097" to .5100" at the very bottom of the die just above the belt cut out. In Ken Howell's excellent book of cartridge design the belted mags maximum brass dimension of the diameter of the case, just above the belt, is for the most .5130" Some say .5131" and some say as small as .5120" but all are .5120" or greater. This means that minimum chamber dimensions at that point will be .5130" or greater, most are greater. That's why the brass is allowed to expand in the first place because the chamber is bigger.

    My dies size that down to .510". I had some 416-300 WM (just the 300 WM necked up to 416) loads that were mucho too hot. The primer pockets were opened so much that a primer could be seated with finger pressure. These had been fired about a holf dozen times and were in my scrap bin as ruined brass. I pulled three of them out and measured the area just above the webb (solid part of the brass) that point where we see the bulge, just above the belt. They measured about .5132" to .5133". Way out there! I ran one through a 458 Lott die adjusted for s/h contact. It then measured .510". I ran one through a 416 RM die it measured .510" I ran one through a 375 AI die and guess what, it measured .510" I didn't run anything through any of the RCBS dies but they measure about the same as Redding.

    All three of these cases would drop into various rifles (I don't have a 416-300WM to test) such as 375 improved, 458 Lott, 470 Capstick, 416 Rem, I even ran one through the 416 taylor die and pushed the shoulder back then trimmed it off and it dropped into the 416 Taylor rifle I have here.

    When brass gets worked it gets tough and springy. When sized it will spring back to something over what the sizer sized it to. We size about .001" to .002" tighter than we need to chamber, at the neck body and base. Brass does just wear out and I think part of my reasons for not needing this die is just that it wears out after ten or fifteen firings and at places other than the expanded base. Also, rifle chambers will vary and there is no way to know for sure if they conform to SAAMI specs until we cast and measure. Some models don't fit all tracks!

    My Form and trim (Redding) dies are at chamber dimensions. That base portion is .5150" on all that I measured. The neck sizing dies are also .5150" and one of the 416-300 WM were sized some in the neck die. My body dies for the belted calibers are also .510" at the base dimension above the belt. Redding dies are more closely controlled to dimensions than RCBS. I did not measure any Forster dies as they are not in the same state as I am but my experience with them is that they are very consistant and correct in dimensions.

    I did not find my collet sizer die to use and measure but it does size the base more than a standard die does.

    I load ammo for lots of folks. I do a lot of load development many of these calibers are belted. Sometimes I get pressure signs that include expanding the base portion of the case. When I run them into the dies, they chamber in any gun I have of that caliber. I don't really need the collet sizer die.
    Is there nothing so sacred on this earth that you aren't willing to kill or die for?



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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Al View Post
    I have two sets of dies for the .375 H&H. One set of RCBS that I faced off and removed .030". That did nothing, a second set of Redding, that was no better. So what's the trick and how did you make stock dies work?

    Whatever the cure, please pass it along, the rest of the world needs to know.
    I wouldn't call it a "trick", but one must get the case all the way into the sizing die. If the case goes all the way in there, it's gonna get sized. If it gets sized, it'll fit.

    I note that this can be difficult when you size a magnum (belted) case in a light-weight press that has a lot of flex.

    The "cure" is a heavy press that doesn't spread apart, under heavy pressure. Along with enough lube at the BASE of the case, that should do it.

    Iíve never seriously considered buying this guy's die, because I don't believe what he says about it. He claims his die is Necessary in order to size a belted case that has been fired a few times.

    No Way.

    Smitty of the North
    Walk Slow, and Drink a Lotta Water.
    Has it ever occurred to you, that Nothing ever occurs to God? Adrien Rodgers.
    You can't out-give God.

  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by Smitty of the North View Post
    Iíve never seriously considered buying this guy's die, because I don't believe what he says about it. He claims his die is Necessary in order to size a belted case that has been fired a few times.

    No Way.

    Smitty of the North
    48 years of reloading belted cases agrees completely.

    Never, ever had a problem with oversized bases, and we're talking a whole lot of rifles, cartridges and reloading cycles here. If I'd had even one case give me troubles I certainly would have taken an interest in base sizing. But his flat claims that oversize is frequent and his product is mandatory simply don't pack any water for me.

    Any time you get claims like that, it sounds like spin. If he had backed off on his claims and offered the product as a solution when you DO have problems, I'd have bought it a long time ago to have on hand just in case.

    For me the biggest problem is the spin rather than the product itself. I have no doubt it works. I have no evidence that it's needed.

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    I don't have a clue why you don't have a problem with belted cases. I have had the problem for many years. I do not know why you think the ad is spin. I guess it must be just special people like you fellows that don't have problems (cause your firearms and loading equipment are superior) and it's poor stupid folks like me with poor gear that it happens to.

    Eletism seem to be the norm in this election cycle. The problem is real, the die solves the problem. End of story!
    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tryants." (Thomas Jefferson

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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Al View Post

    Eletism seem to be the norm in this election cycle. The problem is real, the die solves the problem. End of story!
    I have no doubt the die will solve the problem when it occurs. I'll happily buy it and use it the very first time I have the problem. It's just that I've never had the problem.

    Calling me an elitist because my experience differs from yours is one step too far, however.

    You're on my DO NOT READ list.

    See ya.

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    I ran across this on another forum, same issue from a few folks that have been dealing with this problem from a slightly different angle.

    http://www.benchrest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=54561

    Good read for whoever might want to cut through the Bravo Serra.
    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tryants." (Thomas Jefferson

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    I'm not trying to disrespect anybody here, but i bought/use and believe in the product. The only reason I bought it was because myself and a buddy who shot more belted mags than I do started having chambering problems. We traced the problem back to a bulge just ahead of the belt. This product solved our problems. If for nothing else, it gives me another cool thing on my bench to talk about.

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    I've only been handloading for 20 years, or so.

    And only for about 3 different flavors of belted cartridges. I've used Lyman, RCBS, Redding and CH-4D dies and never experienced this "problem" first hand. I do know that Imperial is da bomb for HD belted resizing, esp. nickel plated cases.

    If there really is a "problem" and $90 solves the problem for ALL your belted FL sizing needs, then it's probably an o.k. investment for folks that need it.

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    Here is a better link to Larry's web site. The testimonials by a few unknown but regular folks such as Craig Boddington and Dave Tubbs are not worth the read for you more experience shooters.

    http://www.larrywillis.com/

    Seems like I'm not totally alone with this problem?
    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tryants." (Thomas Jefferson

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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Al View Post
    Here is a better link to Larry's web site. The testimonials by a few unknown but regular folks such as Craig Boddington and Dave Tubbs are not worth the read for you more experience shooters.

    http://www.larrywillis.com/

    Seems like I'm not totally alone with this problem?
    Al,

    Send me your brass that won't chamber. Send me your tired, your poor and your down trodden brass, any caliber with a belt. I will resize it and send it back to you. If it does not chamber, in your rifle. I'll send a testimonial to Larry and make one on this forum also. How's that?
    Is there nothing so sacred on this earth that you aren't willing to kill or die for?



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    Quote Originally Posted by Murphy View Post
    Al,

    Send me your brass that won't chamber. Send me your tired, your poor and your down trodden brass, any caliber with a belt. I will resize it and send it back to you. If it does not chamber, in your rifle. I'll send a testimonial to Larry and make one on this forum also. How's that?
    PM me your address. I'll have to shoot some, and not use Larry's die to have that happen. How do you want the rifle sent and the brass?

    Read the links? I sent a link to this discussion to Larry and I figured he might like a chance to respond to these distortions of his fine product.

    I'm not mad at anybody, I just hate to be called a lire over and issue I've dealt with for many many years. I know if you read the 3 page link to Bench rest central and what Larry and others have to say, this crap would have ended before it ever started.

    I never had a workable solution to this problem, until this die came along. Read the history of this whole belt issue. My own history with the problem with the Late JERRY SHANNON goes back to the 1970's, his much further back. His solution to the problem was to remove the belts and cut new chambers without a belt provision. JERRY had it right, he knew the problem was the belt. He also knew that belted case headspace on the shoulder. I know because I stood in his shop and told him they head space on the belt (just like the good parrot, that a 25 year old could be). Then came the enlightenment. I miss knowing people as smart as JERRY was. I have not known many that have a tenth the knowledge as that man. I'm pretty sure that I know most of the best in this country. No one could touch his knowledge and craftsmanship.

    I will post the diameter of the cases I send to you just forward of the belt. If that bulge is gone when you return the brass then I will know that you have had to use Larry's die to resize that area. Cause there is no other way to size that area.

    Cerro safe a die and see for yourself. Let me know in a PM.

    Al
    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tryants." (Thomas Jefferson

  19. #19

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    Hi,

    I just signed up, and this is my first post on this forum. One of your regular members told me about this particular topic (the Belted Magnum Collet Resizing Die), and he asked me to tell "the rest of the story" ..... so ..... here it is. Some people may call it spin, so I'll just list the facts.

    1.) I've been reloading since 1966 (dozens of different calibers)
    2.) I'm definitely no marketing expert. (my spelling is bad too ...)
    3.) I wrote the entire website www.larrywillis.com (I'm not a programmer)
    4.) I discovered that a lot of shooters have problems reloading belted cases, and (this die works perfectly for me).
    5.) RCBS said that they were aware of this belt problem, but the R&D would cost too much to design a new type of resizing die.
    6.) I designed and perfected the Belted Magnum Collet Resizing Die myself. (after making 4 expensive prototypes)
    7.) This die is not needed by every single shooter in the entire world.
    8.) I patented this die myself. (I'm not a lawyer)
    9.) One of the major die manufacturers offered to buy my patent. (I wonder why??)
    10.) I've sold well over 2,400 of these dies so far. (I've never worked in sales")
    11.) I've received countless hundreds of calls and emails from satisfied customers.
    12.) I wrote an article about this die in Precision Shooting magazine (I'm not a writer)
    13.) This die resolves the most common reloading problem with belted magnums. (see lines 4,5,9,10 and 11)
    14.) My goal is to increase the number of active shooters out there. (because it drives the liberals crazy)
    15.) Our website is devoted to helping fellow shooters. It's a great source of resource information for shooters and hunters, it has reloading tech tips, (.... and it's free).

    NOTE: A positive attitude is essential for making the shooting sports more popular. We desperately need to inspire more new shooters, because they're the only help we have for preserving our Second Amendment.

    (We need more shooting ranges than golf courses.)

    Good Shooting,
    Larry Willis / Innovative Technologies

  20. #20

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    Though I have never had a problem with belted cases and never needed your product, I can tell you where there's room for a real BIG service in my own world of shooting: An alternative to those !#@$$% expensive small base sizing dies from RCBS.

    I'm a fan of Savage 99's, but too stupid to hang onto the SB dies when I let a 99 slip through my hands. Then the next one I get, I have to go bleed to RCBS for another SB sizer. Got a new 250 Savage right now waiting for me to get over my mad after sizing a few cases and discovering I'll have to go back in hock for another SB die. That must be 4 or 5 in 250 alone I've bought now over the years. Like I said, I'm pretty stupid sometimes. And Savage isn't the only bear in the woods when it comes to needing SB dies.

    Have you priced SB dies at RCBS? Heck, just one of them would buy a couple of your dies. If you put out collet base sizers for other families of cases in addition to belted you'd be doing a huge service, even if Big Green would hate you.

    If you're already making them for non-belted families of cases, my bad for not learning sooner. I'll be at your site in a heartbeat.

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