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Thread: Caribou Killings, the latest

  1. #1
    Member martentrapper's Avatar
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    Default Caribou Killings, the latest

    Here's a link to the latest ADN story:
    http://www.adn.com/news/alaska/story/479222.html

    There was another thread on this and I can't find it (I don't mean the one that was locked). This issue is EXTREMELY relevant to hunting in Ak. and enforcement there of. It is a good subject to remain on this forum.
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  2. #2
    Member AKBassking's Avatar
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    Default Sad state of affairs

    The waste is just plain wrong! Bad PR on Alaska Natives too.

    Just sad..............

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    Member shphtr's Avatar
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    Default

    I agree that the perpetrators need to be charged and prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. "I am native" is NOT an acceptable excuse. It needs to be known, and accepted that the game laws apply to EVERYONE as do the penalties for transgression. The penalties are in place to act as a deterrent to those that would break the law and to be effective they need to be enforced. If you do not expect to be penalized if you break the law then what will keep you from breaking existing laws? Ethics and personal values are nice....but they do not work for everyone. In view of prior occurrences, IT IS ABOUT TIME TO DO WHAT IS RIGHT.

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    It's a huge waste no matter who did it, but in my mind it brings about another question.
    Is the native community (not saying natives did it, just saying that the elders say if natives committed the crime they'll handle it themselves) desiring to handle these things in their own way any different than some Muslim communities wanting to handle things under Sharia law?

    It also serves to drive wedges between native & non native hunters that we definetly don't need driven further.
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  5. #5
    Member pike_palace's Avatar
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    Default this again.

    Ok, well from what I have read it was native people who commited this crime which dosen't mean diddly to me, because honestly I don't care as long as the offenders are prosecuted accordingly. The village elders were not happy this became public, and are saying they will take care of everything. Ok, sure. I think that the troopers need to take over this investigation. I don't believe anything will come forth if we leave it up to the villages to find out anything. Right now it's a "sensitive" issue because the excuse some of the people are using was they need the caribou for subsistence and "they couldn't carry out all those caribou" when none of them were even delt with. If they don't want to help find out who did this, fine. Let them try and sweep it under the rug. Many of the natives were pretty horrified at the pics the troopers showed them though, so I'm hoping they come forth and rat on the scum bags who did this.
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    Default

    The story is now on AP resulting in printing in most papers in the country. the story is not out in the "open". Direct and indirect consequences are two other issues. Very ugly at every level from my view.

  7. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by shphtr View Post
    .....accepted that the game laws apply to EVERYONE as do the penalties for transgression. The penalties are in place to act as a deterrent to those that would break the law and to be effective they need to be enforced. If you do not expect to be penalized if you break the law then what will keep you from breaking existing laws? Ethics and personal values are nice....but they do not work for everyone. In view of prior occurrences, IT IS ABOUT TIME TO DO WHAT IS RIGHT.
    I agree.

    Just asking this....if game laws apply or should apply then why don't all other bodies of law apply? Alaska Natives are claiming sovereign rights (which is BS imo) in other areas of law and the STATE OF ALASKA is letting them get away with it. In employment law, contract law, family law and on it goes....now this and I think this could be the big one.

    As citizens of this country and of this State, we better get our head out of the clouds and start paying a lot closer attention to how we are permitting our State government to erode the States rights the Alaska Native campaign for sovereignty is eroding.....


  8. #8
    Member bushrat's Avatar
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    Default Here we go again...

    Mike (martentrapper),

    I agree this is extremely relevant topic of discussion here, but I think it's been shown things get out of hand on this particular issue. I assume the other thread was deleted cuz of that.

    Really the bottom line is something Dau was quoted as saying in the last article:
    "Everybody I've talked to is just really saddened by this whole thing."

    Let the troopers do their job. We'll all see how it pans out. Really not much else to say on it. Continued posts just seem to be stir the pot more than anything.

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vance in AK View Post
    .... desiring to handle these things in their own way any different than some Muslim communities wanting to handle things under Sharia law?
    Nope it's not any different.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vance in AK View Post
    It also serves to drive wedges between native & non native hunters that we definetly don't need driven further.
    Yep; and like everything else, if the core issue is not resolved the problem will not get corrected. So we either permit others with divisive attitudes to drive the wedge until the country splits along very clear lines or remove the tools used to drive the wedge any deeper.


  10. #10

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    I hope this thread can remain civil as i'd like to see it stay. No matter what the ethnicity of the poachers, they should be treated like the common criminals that they are but Fish and Game violations are hardly ever dealt with that harshly. It says 120 caribou were slaughtered but there are going to be more than that killed by the time this is over and done with, calves without their mothers will not survive for long.

  11. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by bushrat View Post
    Let the troopers do their job. We'll all see how it pans out. Really not much else to say on it. Continued posts just seem to be stir the pot more than anything.
    Don't you think it's significant that the Natives even think they have a right to deal with this under 'tribal law' and are deliberately not cooperating and consequently interfering with a State criminal investigation based on the assumption that they have a right to do so?


  12. #12
    Member pike_palace's Avatar
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    I'm confused a little bit. One article I read said the natives were terribly saddened at what happened and said they would help all they could to bring justice. Then another said they wanted to keep it within the 'Tribal Council' and were mad that it leaked to the public in Anchorage. They also refused to let troopers help. This whole thing with natives is pissing me off.
    "Ya can't stop a bad guy with a middle finger and a bag of quarters!!!!"- Ted Nugent.

  13. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by AkHunter45 View Post
    I hope this thread can remain civil as i'd like to see it stay. No matter what the ethnicity of the poachers, they should be treated like the common criminals that they are but Fish and Game violations are hardly ever dealt with that harshly. It says 120 caribou were slaughtered but there are going to be more than that killed by the time this is over and done with, calves without their mothers will not survive for long.
    I agree to a point. I am sure you do understand that the ONLY reason this situation is unfolding the way it is is because it is an ethnic issue plain and simple.

    Any jail time is hard time. I believe that wanton waste is a mandatory 7 days in jail. That means that for every single animal that at least the hind quarters were not salvaged is good for 7 days in jail per count. At least the cases I am familiar with.


  14. #14
    Mark
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    Quote Originally Posted by AkHunter45 View Post
    ......Fish and Game violations are hardly ever dealt with that harshly.........
    ????????!!!

    I know a guy (who happened to be a local government official) who got a $5,001 fine for shooting a cow and bull moose by mistake.

    You don't think a $5,001 fine is "harsh"? After all the meat was harvested and the violator turned himself in?

    If that was appropriate, what would 120+ dead caribou left to rot be worth to the state in fines?

    Let's see..............two moose turned in are worth $5,000................120+ caribou left to rot.....................5,000 * 120?......................$600,000?

    Obviously that's equitable if $5,000 for two turned in moose isn't too harsh..............

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    Member pike_palace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark View Post
    ????????!!!

    I know a guy (who happened to be a local government official) who got a $5,001 fine for shooting a cow and bull moose by mistake.

    You don't think a $5,001 fine is "harsh"? After all the meat was harvested and the violator turned himself in?

    If that was appropriate, what would 120+ dead caribou left to rot be worth to the state in fines?

    Let's see..............two moose turned in are worth $5,000................120+ caribou left to rot.....................5,000 * 120?......................$600,000?

    Obviously that's equitable if $5,000 for two turned in moose isn't too harsh..............

    I think he might have meant "out in the bush/ native violations". Thats a kind way of putting it. But I agree, $600,000 fine and a year or 2 in jail sounds good to me.
    Last edited by pike_palace; 07-30-2008 at 14:26. Reason: clarification
    "Ya can't stop a bad guy with a middle finger and a bag of quarters!!!!"- Ted Nugent.

  16. #16
    Mark
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    Quote Originally Posted by pike_palace View Post
    Originally Posted by Mark
    ????????!!!

    I know a guy (who happened to be a local government official) who got a $5,001 fine for shooting a cow and bull moose by mistake.

    You don't think a $5,001 fine is "harsh"? After all the meat was harvested and the violator turned himself in?

    If that was appropriate, what would 120+ dead caribou left to rot be worth to the state in fines?

    Let's see..............two moose turned in are worth $5,000................120+ caribou left to rot.....................5,000 * 120?......................$600,000?

    Obviously that's equitable if $5,000 for two turned in moose isn't too harsh..............
    I think he might have meant "out in the bush/ native violations". Thats a kind way of putting it.....
    Oh.

    The above case I cited was in the Koyukuk National Wildlife Refuge. The local government official wasn't local to that area (he was a Mat-Su official).

  17. #17
    Member Marc Taylor's Avatar
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    Default One thing for sure...

    A tribe won't last another 10,000 years by doing business this way. The village elders need to dig their collective heads out and start conducting themselves as if they intend to thrive, not merely survive.

    One law. One standard. One justice.

    Taylor

  18. #18
    Member pike_palace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marc Taylor View Post
    A tribe won't last another 10,000 years by doing business this way. The village elders need to dig their collective heads out and start conducting themselves as if they intend to thrive, not merely survive.

    One law. One standard. One justice.

    Taylor

    EXACTLY!! If they want to live like their ancestors let them. That means, no gas, oil or electricity goes to them. Let them kill caribou and moose and whales and blah blah blah. Let them burn whale oil. They've continued to play both sides of the fence for years. Lets bring a stop to it.
    "Ya can't stop a bad guy with a middle finger and a bag of quarters!!!!"- Ted Nugent.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marc Taylor View Post

    One law. One standard. One justice.

    Taylor
    Oh Mark you're so... so... so... one way!
    And in this case you're so right! (I know you're right because you agree with me)
    Vance in AK.

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  20. #20
    Member pike_palace's Avatar
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    ok im sorry for the misunderstanding Mark.
    "Ya can't stop a bad guy with a middle finger and a bag of quarters!!!!"- Ted Nugent.

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