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Thread: 350gr arrows too light??

  1. #1
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    Default 350gr arrows too light??

    would a 350gr arrow be too light for moose, caribou or grizzly???

    shooting 64lbs around 295fps, about 68ft/lbs of KE fixed blade broadheads.

    any thoughts???

    Thanks!

  2. #2
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    Default My opinion

    I would feel comfortable shooting a bou with your 350 gr. set up but would chose a heavier arrow on the moose and bear. Something over 400gr. Even with the loss of speed going to a heavier arrow I think the penitration would be better.

  3. #3

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    Momentum is penitration KE has nothing to do with penitration. The mass or wieght stays with the arrow as it slows down in the air or during penitration. Speed is always decreasing so if two arrows have the same momentum the one thats is heavier will penitrate more.

    Mass X velocity = momentum
    Velocity is always fleeting so as velocity decreases so does momentum.
    If you like KE Mass x velocity squared = KE
    And that means KE is decreasing at an xpotenial rate as its velocity decraeses and thats a losing battle.

    There is small window for each bow and its draw wieght where you can shoot a lighter, a heavier, or a conpermise wieght arrows to either get flatter trajectory or more penitration but never both. and one will have better wind drift/be less criditcal of bow setups and operator errors.

    Generaly a combined arrows/broadhead wieght of 500grs will work for #60 and up bows. At 60lbsyou need the wieght and at 65/70/75lbs the same wieght with the extra speed has more penitration and flatter trajectories too. In the end how much penitration is actualy required for each game spieces?

  4. #4

    Default Arrow weight

    would a 350gr arrow be too light for moose, caribou or grizzly???

    Yep! too light by just about 300 grains. Look toward the 10 grains per lb of draw weight fact as a minimum for big game. You'll find better arrow flight, a quieter bow and much better penetration. If you're drawing a true 64 lbs on your bow than look to about 650 grain arrow as a starting point. Best would be to put those additional 300 grains right at the pointy end of that arrah.

    And no, I'm not a bit jealous that you're going to bowhunt Bullwinkle.

    Tjen is spot on regarding the KE issue. As bowhunters we should be looking toward the momentum and leave the KE for the target shooters.

  5. #5
    Member AKDoug's Avatar
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    Having seen several moose kills with 350-400 grain setups I would not hesitate to use one. In fact, my arrow setup is currently at 410 grains and I use it to hunt for everything in Alaska. This debate will do on as long as there is bowhunting. The single most important thing is to have the ability to hit both lungs.

  6. #6
    Member Marc Taylor's Avatar
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    Default

    If we are talking about a 350 grain raw shaft before tipping, fletching or FOBing it, then it's plenty for moose. I don't think I'd seek an overall weight of 350 grains ready-to-shoot, though.

    I've taken 3 bull moose with Carbon Express 350's with Blazers and Muzzy 125's. Collectively, my three moose have traveled less than 100 yards once they were hit. I wouldn't expect a pass-through, though and one is really not necessary.

    This year I'm dropping down to 100 grain broadheads for more speed and a little flatter trajectory.

    I'll report on that as well.

    Taylor

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    I too am a momentum kind of a guy, as well as shooting trad equipment & favor the 10 gr+ per # of draw weight idea.
    Vance in AK.

    Matthew 6:33
    "But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added to you."

  8. #8

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    Most of my combind arrow/broadhead weights are between 500grs and 520grs. This is for cedar's, XX75's, and wieghted beman #340's. I shoot these in either my recurve's (#60) or compondbow (#65). Just for example this has worked for 100% and even complete pass throughs on caribou, moose, elk, and countless black bears by dozens of my archery club members using #56 to #65 recurves using two blade heads. Many were Alaskan game animals.

  9. #9

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    Now i'm not feeling so bad about shooting a moose with my heavy 520 gr XX75 Gamegetter 2115's.

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    Marc, What 100gr broadhead are you switching to this year?

  11. #11
    Member OKElkHunter's Avatar
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    Check out these links: http://www.martinarchery.com/faq/facts.php ; http://nativeskills.madduckoutdoors.com/penitration.htm ; http://www.huntersfriend.com/2007-Ca...ion-guide5.htm ; http://www.goldtip.com/calculators/kinetic.asp . KE Equals penitration and increasing arrow weight by 100gr will only give you an increase of 5% in KE if velocities remain equal, which is highly unlikely because heavier arrows take more energy to push at the same speed as the lighter arrow. I shoot 370gr total weight arrows and generate aprox 65 to 69 lbs of KE. Most references, and there are many, agree that even the heaviest and most dangerous game only requires a minimum of 65lbs of KE. The IBO speed ratings of your bow should be reduced by 5 - 7 % to determine your arrow speed if you do not have a chonograph. I would stay on the conservative side and go with 8% and determine my arrow KE based on that 8% reduction in arrow speed. If you have over 60lbs of KE you should have enough arrow to penitrate the vitals of a moose. http://www.archeryhq.com/kin.htm
    “Don't expect to build up the weak by pulling down the strong." ~Calvin Coolidge~

  12. #12

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    Thanks for the links, looks like i'm good to go with 63.78 lbs of KE.

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    Member Marc Taylor's Avatar
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    Shuttle T's. They group very consistantly with my setup.

    Taylor

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    While I do not claim to be an expert, I disagree with some here in that my tests have not proved that momentum is decisevely more improtant that KE in determining penetration. Or if it is then the diffeence is minor. While my tests were not exactly scientific, there were fairly consistent. Basically I shot arrows into both a cardboard box filled with sand and a sheet of 3/4" plywood. Using the same bow I shot lighter arrows (372 grains) which gave increased KE and lower momentum, then I shot heavier arrows (540 grains) which had lower KE but higher momentum. Penetration of each were nearly identical. My results in the field have mirrored these as well. In my opinion the advantage of heavier arrows is for the quietness they provide, which is a very important consideration when hunting. Also, I believe the most improtant things that govern penetration are RAZOR SHARP quality broadheads, and a perfectly tuned bow. In addition to good flight, a perfectly tuned bow pushes the arrow perfectly straight, which allows the broadhead to cut the most effeciently and true. This is also true with mechanical broadheads. Most people use mechanicals either for the "cool factor" or to compensate for poor arrow flight. However, poor arrow flight primarily occurs from a poorly tuned bow, which will translate into the arrows penetration too. While I'm not opposed to mechanical broadheads, I believe they are mostly unneeded. I have never been unable to achieve great arrow flight with fixed blades. Yesterday I shot both Magnus Stingers and Slick Tricks at 272 fps in my target 40 yards away. Guess what, perfect flight and they grouped right there with my field points. As far as broadhead weight goes I in no way believe screwing a 125 grain head on your arrow instead of a 100 grain head will improve penetration because 25 grains is largely insignificant. Broadhead weight is largely a personal choice, but your total arrow weight should dictate what weight of head to use in order to provide an appropriate FOC. FWIW I'm hunting with my lighter arrows this year with 100 grain Slick Tricks, and while I'm not hunting moose or bear I have no doubt they would not work just fine on these animals. Or at least my experience on big hogs has proven...grin.

    Brent

  15. #15
    Member RMiller's Avatar
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    A 350 gr at nearly 300 fps will most likely go right through a moose.

    My arrows are 410 gr at 260 and they go right through moose.
    "You have given out too much reputation in the last 24 hours, try again later".

  16. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by okbowman View Post
    While I do not claim to be an expert, I disagree with some here in that my tests have not proved that momentum is decisevely more improtant that KE in determining penetration. Or if it is then the diffeence is minor. While my tests were not exactly scientific, there were fairly consistent. Basically I shot arrows into both a cardboard box filled with sand and a sheet of 3/4" plywood. Using the same bow I shot lighter arrows (372 grains) which gave increased KE and lower momentum, then I shot heavier arrows (540 grains) which had lower KE but higher momentum. Penetration of each were nearly identical. My results in the field have mirrored these as well. In my opinion the advantage of heavier arrows is for the quietness they provide, which is a very important consideration when hunting. Also, I believe the most improtant things that govern penetration are RAZOR SHARP quality broadheads, and a perfectly tuned bow. In addition to good flight, a perfectly tuned bow pushes the arrow perfectly straight, which allows the broadhead to cut the most effeciently and true. This is also true with mechanical broadheads. Most people use mechanicals either for the "cool factor" or to compensate for poor arrow flight. However, poor arrow flight primarily occurs from a poorly tuned bow, which will translate into the arrows penetration too. While I'm not opposed to mechanical broadheads, I believe they are mostly unneeded. I have never been unable to achieve great arrow flight with fixed blades. Yesterday I shot both Magnus Stingers and Slick Tricks at 272 fps in my target 40 yards away. Guess what, perfect flight and they grouped right there with my field points. As far as broadhead weight goes I in no way believe screwing a 125 grain head on your arrow instead of a 100 grain head will improve penetration because 25 grains is largely insignificant. Broadhead weight is largely a personal choice, but your total arrow weight should dictate what weight of head to use in order to provide an appropriate FOC. FWIW I'm hunting with my lighter arrows this year with 100 grain Slick Tricks, and while I'm not hunting moose or bear I have no doubt they would not work just fine on these animals. Or at least my experience on big hogs has proven...grin.

    Brent
    By engineering definison KE is not even a measurement of a mass"s ability to keep moving.. Its is only Mass X Velocity all day long any day. I can put thousends of lbs of pressure on something and with just a few .001" of movement can completly releave all the pressure. KE sometime though of as PSI and that is still not a measure of penitration. To make it simple calulate your momentum and then concider what resistance your type of broadhead will have. And remeber KE is dropping at an expotential rate as its velocity component drops, not with momentum. Its the pinpong ball, gulf ball comparission.
    I once took a kids bow the one for tots with the suction cup arrows and made crossbow launcher for ping pong and golf balls. shot it through a crony and then ask who disagrees , now who wants to put there head three foot in front of this for a first hand demenstration. I had not takers point was obvious. There is a window for each bow and its draw weight where you can go lighter/heavier, or some where in the middle for more penitration, flatter trajectory, or a compermise, BUT NEVER BOTH.

    And with archery the fast the arrow the more cridical it is to lauch and of any arodymanic force it incounters in flight.

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