Results 1 to 17 of 17

Thread: more important?

  1. #1

    Question more important?

    What do you think is more important to know? A hunter's limitations (ability, skill, etc.) or a rifle's limitations (power, bullet weight, design, caliber, etc)? I know almost every hunter thinks their rifle is "thunder from hell" and that they can (at least sometime in their lives) "out run, out jump, out climb and out shoot either man or beast." Ego is sure a motivating factor, either way. Thoughts?
    If you like getting kicked by a mule...then you'll "love" shooting my .458.

  2. #2
    Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Valley trash.....and proud of it.
    Posts
    813

    Default

    Hunters limitation. you can have the biggest and baddest whizbang ever made but if the person cant put the bullet where it needs to be, its useless.

    Sometimes folks just need to admit that they cant make the shot.

  3. #3
    Moderator
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Midwest
    Posts
    4,431

    Default

    It is far better to have a good man with lousy equipment than the other way around.
    Is there nothing so sacred on this earth that you aren't willing to kill or die for?



  4. #4
    Member AKDoug's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Talkeetna
    Posts
    5,714

    Default

    Amen Murphy. I run into this all the time with bowhunters. A new bow isn't going to do you any good if you can't shoot. It's going to do even less if you don't know how to hunt.

  5. #5
    Member shphtr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Chugiak
    Posts
    1,376

    Default "Good Hunter"

    How can one be a "competent" hunter and not fully appreciate the ballistics of the cartridge he is using in the rifle he is using the cartridge in?

  6. #6

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by shphtr View Post
    How can one be a "competent" hunter and not fully appreciate the ballistics of the cartridge he is using in the rifle he is using the cartridge in?
    Or seen from another angle, are you hunter enough to leave the optics and flat trajectories at home and use an arm with effective range of 50 yards or less? Open sighted revolvers, traditional muzzleloaders and bare bows quickly sort out the hunters in any crowd.

  7. #7
    Member RMiller's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Montana
    Posts
    1,736

    Default

    Its the shooter.
    "You have given out too much reputation in the last 24 hours, try again later".

  8. #8
    Member Darreld Walton's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Arco, Idaho
    Posts
    782

    Default Get to see a few interestin' things oncet in awhile...

    Didja ever see that 16 year old kid rolling into town in his Dad's 68 Ford pickup...nothin' but hooves and antlers above the sides of the bed, and a grin that's gonna have to be chiseled off? Around these parts, that little snot most likely is also using his Grampa's rifle, probably a 94, or a 336, if he's lucky a converted Mauser or '03, but might also be a well used 99 Savage or Model 70.... They'll come into the store pawing through the catalogs lookin' at the new gee-whiz stuff, wondering how many lines of irrigation pipe they'll have to move, or bales of hay they'll have to buck, or how many cows they'll have to feed and milk to get that new 700. Maybe he'll settle for a good used one so he can have a couple more dates with that 'someone special'....
    The oldest boy an' me (he ain't zactly a boy, he's 35 years old in a week, but he'll never NOT be that curly haired blonde kid runnin through the house in three-cornered pants to me) shot on a trap league together this spring. We'd both missed a couple of weeks, and the last night to shoot left us both with 150 birds to finish up.
    We step up to the 16 yard line, just me and him, because there's a big thunderstorm just starting to roll through, well, the kid pullin' birds was out there, too, but we couldn't hear him cussin' over the wind, so it felt like we were alone. Everyone else is in the clubhouse showin' off their Perazzi's and Ljutics (them Beretta owners were low-men on the totem), and drinking Pudwizers...I'd given up on bein' competitive, and decided to give my old 1100 Skeet gun a workout, the boy don't have a shotgun, so he borrowed my old 37 Ithaca. There ain't a lot of finish left on that Ithaca, but I did treat 'er to a new coat of finish on the wood, recut the checkering and put a new recoil pad and front bead on that plain, full choked 28" barrel. The first string of 25 at 16 yards with a gentle 30-knot wind netted me a 20, but the boy managed a 24. That put us back at 26 for the second 25 birds. Wind's kicked up a mite by then. Must've been the sweet spot for the boy, that gun, and them loads, because when he hit them birds, it was like they were there, then they were gone. No puff of smoke, the wind took it away so fast that the birds were just gone. Someone must've noticed what was going on, and he started getting some attention from the club house. Some laughin' no doubt at us two fools out there imitating lightning rods, but others were starting to be impressed. At 26 yards, the boy went 25 straight.
    Out of the next 100 birds, he managed to bust 97. Every time he'd hit one, he'd start laughing. My advice to him early on was to quit thinking so much and just shoot and enjoy it, his brain knew what to do, so stop arguin' with it!
    I don't think he'd have done better with a $50K shotgun on a sunny, windless day. 'Bout like that kid haulin' meat home. Just goes out and does it.
    There used to be an axiom that I heard from time to time about the shootin' sports...went something like 'beware of the man with just one gun, he probably knows how to use it'.
    Ya don't has to be Superman, nor have the latest .745 Remchester Belchfire to git critters. Lots of humans did just fine with deadfalls, sticks and rocks for an awful long time before the rifled tube came along..........
    Attached Images Attached Images

  9. #9

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Darreld Walton View Post
    Lots of humans did just fine with deadfalls, sticks and rocks for an awful long time before the rifled tube came along..........
    No wiser words have ever been spoken.

  10. #10

    Default poor equipment

    I recall one time when I was a kid...
    I went with my buddy to his cabin and ended up going plinking with .22s.
    He had his nice '94 and I had to use his dad's old bolt model with no front site.
    After a frustrating morning we went back for lunch durring wich time I fasioned a front site out of modeling clay. I could hit anything I could see with that rifle after that.
    I won't brag about by abilities as I was young and don't think that had much to do with it. I think it was just a matter of using the available resources to complete the task at hand. We shot all day until the barrel heated up and the sight began to melt. Accuracy started to go south after that.

  11. #11
    Moderator
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Midwest
    Posts
    4,431

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by shphtr View Post
    How can one be a "competent" hunter and not fully appreciate the ballistics of the cartridge he is using in the rifle he is using the cartridge in?

    A good point. Certainly a huge part of being a good shot (a part of being a good hunter) is knowing the capabilities of your rifle and it's trajectory as well as its effective range. A well skilled shooter might say; "If I can see it, I can hit it." ...... but when shown a full moon and ask if he can see it he may fudge on his previous claim, fully understanding his rifles capabilities.
    Is there nothing so sacred on this earth that you aren't willing to kill or die for?



  12. #12
    Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    foothills of the Brooks Range
    Posts
    638

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Maydog View Post
    What do you think is more important to know? A hunter's limitations (ability, skill, etc.) or a rifle's limitations (power, bullet weight, design, caliber, etc)? I know almost every hunter thinks their rifle is "thunder from hell" and that they can (at least sometime in their lives) "out run, out jump, out climb and out shoot either man or beast." Ego is sure a motivating factor, either way. Thoughts?
    I think it this way, "if you want it bad enough you will get it done". Days are gone when the old cup and core were the way to get it done-it did. But them days are still here for some still that use old school tactics in making there kill-don't matter the bullet, believe it or not.

    I don't see many "whiz-bangers or big-bores" where I live, Lots of .30-30's, .223's, 243's, .308's .30-06's and now and again a .30 carbine. All have one thing in common, cheapo bullets, store bought Core-lokts mostly.

    It is funny how you noted that "almost" every hunter has an ego problem-not where I live or in the surrounding area. Might be an urban thing.

    One of the greatest hunters known in these parts was my father-in-law, always carried a M1 Garand with full metal jackets. Kept his cool and done his part, so did the rifle. Strong man he was and wise. Served in the old National Guard of this State many yrs. back.

    What he taught and this is missing in the "western" world is true hunting ethics to the next generation. Yes, it is a must to know the capabilities of the firearm of choice in order to get food stored for winter and to gather the sewing materials needing for clothing of sorts in regards to winter apparel ie... moose skins, caribou, wolf etc.

    There is some here that have experienced "running" down caribou or moose with snowshoes-for meat first then...............feeding there ego , we have never questioned our firearms we used.

    Other benefits this day and age there is always a market for moose or caribou antlers-pays back for the investment in gas. Most if not all of us have no use for trophy racks.

    An invaluable means for the end, results in animal fat, smoked/dried meat and satisfaction that you were and are a good provider.

    The bad thing about high velocity rounds is the large destructive amounts of meat that is wasted due to fragmentation. If you can make the incredible neck shot then you are welcome with that big rifle otherwise be back up.

    Lately, I have been preaching "good bullets", reload and save your brass---something along that line. Rifles here are handed down to the next generation until it is so worn that they buy something else......oh my God-a Savage! cheesh. They say it shoots good, so that is all that counts.

    a different perspective I know but it exists.

    best regards,

  13. #13

    Talking

    I also agree that the "hunter" and his positive skills are the most important factors. Not the rifle, etc. I've hunted with what some would consider as junk, but I can't recall ever being handicapped by inferior "weaponry". I think about 3-5% of my success was enhanced by a good scope and long range rifle, but that's conjecture, as I never tried to close the distance, because I never had to, so in reality, I'll never know. 98% were all taken under the 2-250 yd range, well within my open sighted rifles capabilites. I have in the past got caught up in the "gotta have" catagory, neglecting hunting skills for shooting skills. I don't regret that, but I have gone back more to the basics...mainly for enjoyment, and not so much ego. I still have a lot of ego...just not willing to put my life on the line over it like I have in the past. I know a lot of you folks can relate to that, right?
    If you like getting kicked by a mule...then you'll "love" shooting my .458.

  14. #14
    Member Nukalpiaq's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Southwest Alaska
    Posts
    985

    Default

    The majority of us out here in rural Alaska grew up hunting with borrowed shotguns and rifles, mostly borrowed from Grandpas and in some cases Grandma. Ammunition usually came with the firearm and it was usually just a handful. No scopes, no fancy gadgets, just well used guns. Sometimes Grandpa would let you borrow his binoculars too. As young men most of us grew up shooting rifles with open sights. When I bought my first big game rifle from the village store it was a Remington 700 ADL in caliber 270. Took it home and pulled out my metal file and went to work on the rear sight until I had it down to a small v, with the top of the sight slightly angled forward and down toward the barrel to reduce reflection from sunlight. All the hunters in the village used to modify their rear sights like that and most were pretty good shots. We always had meat in the freezer, moose, caribou, seal, walrus, waterfowl, etc.
    I believe that hunting skill is most important, knowing where to look for game, what to look for, tracking, stalking animals till you are in shot range, calling game, all these skills are better than any fancy equipment.
    Good basic equipment combined with hunting skill has filled many a freezer out here in the bush and put good food on the family table, still does.
    But it sure is nice to buy a new rifle once in a while, or have one built when you have a little money put away. Maybe even try out the new bore sighting tool from Leupold, rather than removing your bolt to look down the barrel and see if your scope crosshairs are on target. Never used a range finder though, believe most hunters who grew up using open sights can estimate range pretty accurately and know their shooting limitations. To this day even though I use a scope I find myself keeping my shots within the same ranges as I did when I was hunting with open sights, guess old habits are hard to change.

  15. #15
    Member hodgeman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Delta Junction AK
    Posts
    4,055

    Default

    Its the hunter of course, for a lot of the reasons already mentioned. You don't need anything fancy to take game effectively and in my youth a hand me down 30-30 was pretty much the apex for a beginning hunter and I took a pile of game with it.
    If your skills aren't there you probably won't take game with any rifle no matter what feature or ballistic ability.

    Hunting with a nice rifle is its own reward however and while completely unnecessary I do like hunting with a nicer than "average" rifle topped with a good scope.

    I think the key is spending some time shooting and carrying that rifle around. If you don't put in some time getting to know the weapon you probably won't do well.

    Most guides feel good about your chances when you slide a well worn but lovingly maintained rifle from your case.

  16. #16

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by hodgeman View Post
    If your skills aren't there you probably won't take game with any rifle no matter what feature or ballistic ability.

    Hunting with a nice rifle is its own reward however and while completely unnecessary I do like hunting with a nicer than "average" rifle topped with a good scope.

    I think the key is spending some time shooting and carrying that rifle around. If you don't put in some time getting to know the weapon you probably won't do well.

    Most guides feel good about your chances when you slide a well worn but lovingly maintained rifle from your case.
    That was kinda my point, but I think you said it better Hodgeman.

    I love quality equipment and relish using it. I also have the skills, gear and experience to take game at long range. Been there, done that, got the Tshirt. But I just get a super charge out of getting closer once I see an animal.

    It's all about a match between your skills and ability, the characteristics and repair of your gear, and a clear understanding of your gear's and your own limitations. If any of that breaks down, you're putting way too much weight on luck for a successful hunt.

    You're also missing out on all the fun outside the few hours a year you get to hunt!!!!!!! Nothing much else to do but dream and yack on the internet.

  17. #17
    Member Bighorse's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Ketchikan, Alaska
    Posts
    2,032

    Default limitations

    Back to the original question.....Rifle limitations vs. Shooter limitations

    My personal experience has been learning my personal limitations first and now I'm learning my rifles limitations. I have to admit that I thought my 25-06 was invincable at any range when I first started.

    So I'd say learning a shooters limitations would be most important.

    For example......when I first started hunting I thought I could take a really predicatable 100yrd off hand shot. My perception was that I could nail 6" cirle off hand. Well a few gut shots later I realized I couldn't call my shots like that. I fiqured out my personal limitations.
    Now in field conditions I work with those limitations and optimize my shooting stance every time I take a shot.

    Now that I understand what I "the shooter" needs to do I can focus on my ballistics and accuracy.

    That only really matters when I choose to take that long bomb. So what really matters is my skills because that ultimatly pulls the trigger and makes that hold over decision and estimates wind drift. Thats what helps me slow down and carefully choose my shot. I only really understand that by really shooting my gun and knowing what I can expect out of a particular load and gun. I guess thats why I took up reloading.....I know whats going on with each cartidge and thats part of my current process of understanding my rifles limitations. Of course thats just the shooting aspect of hunting.

    I think a proper mentoring of begining shooter should help speed up the learning curve significatly in that regards. Somebody has to do that initial education so folks know the ABC's of hunting and shooting. Not to mention its expensive and to really send lead down range takes $$$$$$$$$$$$$$. A kid needs adults to learn and become a person with shooting skills or that kid needs it in his heart like a lab loves water and sacrices much to shoot.

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •