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Thread: Kenai Guide in HOT water

  1. #1
    Member alaskachuck's Avatar
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    Default Kenai Guide in HOT water

    I heard this on the radio on the way home from the river today and just found it on KYUU's web site


    http://www.ktuu.com/Global/story.asp...&nav=menu510_2



    Here is the link to it in the Peninsul clarion

    http://www.peninsulaclarion.com/stor...63567817.shtml
    Last edited by alaskachuck; 07-20-2008 at 21:25. Reason: another link
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    Member DRIFTER_016's Avatar
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    Default

    If it's true I hope they pull his guiding license!!!! Or at least suspend it fo a couple of years. I have no sympathy for poachers!!

  3. #3

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    Yeah that water is hot alright.

  4. #4
    Member fishNphysician's Avatar
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    Default Good story gone bad... too bad!

    Sounds to me that the guide thought he had a legal (supra-slot) fish when his client caught it. Once he found out it was not a legal fish, he made some calculated blunders that only made his situation worse.

    As one who would like to see all of those big fish released, it saddens me that this fish was needlessly harvested and killed.

    I believe this story underscores how difficult it is to get a reproducible measurement of total length. Folks go thru all kinds of gyrations to get the maximum measurement... be it flaring the tips of the tail backward, or torquing the tail wrist up or down, or taking a diagonal/oblique measurement from snout to one tail tip rather than a true axial length. There is simply too much variability with this technique.

    The most reproducible length measurement is FORK length (snout to mid-fork on the tail). Perhaps adjusting and defining the slot limit in terms of fork length would mutually serve the angling and enforcement community better. Maybe a few less tickets... and perhaps a few more big fish hitting the gravel.

    The other factor is the natural compulsion of folks to "will" the observed measurement up to some preconceived convenient size, whether it really is that big or not. How many times have you heard guys report a 58 pounder as weighing 60 pounds? Or how a 49" fish went 50"? It's just human nature, especially when it comes to the male ego. Come on now... does any guy actually know just how big 12" really is?

    Funny how honesty still remains the best policy.
    "Let every angler who loves to fish think what it would mean to him to find the fish were gone." Zane Grey
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  5. #5

    Default Let's go back a dwcade or so ago

    A number of drifer were unhappy about the restrictions placed on them by the department, so they took it on them selves and moved out side of the fishing and fished and caught a large number of salmon. When thtey were ticketed and went to court the judge slap their hands. The drifer were required to pay a small fine and keep their catch. The entire thing was a be fiasco. No drifters even lost ne day of fishing or any gear! What about equal punishment?

  6. #6
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    Default big king

    I know this lodge very well. One think I can tell is the lodge owners are totally honest! They don't break or even bend any game rules! The guide involved works for them. Hes a nice young guy that made a huge mistake. Believe me he thought the fish was over 55"! His mistake was putting the tape measure on top the fish and measuring to the end of the tail not the middle. If he wanted to intentionally brake the law he would have never put a picture in the paper and never taken it to the fish and game.
    Dumb young kid but not a bad guy or a poacher.

  7. #7

    Default unfortunate that this happened

    but it is an educational experience for me. I ALWAYS try to follow the rules for where i fish, and to my knowledge have always done so. But if this thread had not been posted i might have broken the rules without even knowing it. In michigan, and florida where i fish, the proper way to measure the length of a fish is with the mouth pinched shut, and the forks of the tail pinched together. then measure in a straight line from tip to tip. that is the measurement i always use. Now when i come up there in two weeks, i wil know the way you measure up there. like i said, sad that this happened, the mismeasurement, part anyways, but something for all of us to learn from. Lying about the where, unexcusable.

    to clarify the measurements we use, here is a link to the proper way we do it here... http://www.michigan.gov/documents/ma...08_51760_7.pdf

  8. #8

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    Can you allow the tape measure to follow the natural curvature of the fish?
    I could see it adding an extra 2" or so, as compared to measuring on a flat
    surface.

    But A guide should know the proper technique.

    Anyone know how it's written in the book?

  9. #9

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    "Dumb young kid but not a bad guy or a poacher"

    I am sorry but illegaly taking game is poaching, and poaching makes you a bad guy in my book. Furthermore if you have the experience to be a guide you WILL know how to measure a fish to be sure you are within the law. If you do not have this minimum experience you should not be allowed to guide. Pretty simple.

  10. #10

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    I want to know how the fish and game expects these guys to accurately measure big kings like that without killing them...

  11. #11
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    Question not arguing

    that he broke the law and lied - he deserves the punishment given, and knowing how are system works(as it has been shown lately) it probably won't be severe enough imo. what i would like to know is how do you get an accurate mesurement on the length of the fish without removing it from the water? seeing as once you remove a salmon from the water you must retain that fish, if you wish to release the fish you are not to remove said fish from the water. just curious.

  12. #12
    Member fishNphysician's Avatar
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    Default Simple...

    As in so many other aspects of life, in the face of uncertainty, the precautionary principle should rule the day.

    If in doubt... especially if it is anywhere close to either the upper or lower limit of the slot.... RELEASE!
    "Let every angler who loves to fish think what it would mean to him to find the fish were gone." Zane Grey
    http://www.piscatorialpursuits.com/uploads/UP12710.jpg
    The KeenEye MD

  13. #13
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    Default Standard for measurement

    After I read the story, and this thread, I went back and looked through the regs, and did a search on ADF&G's website looking for a standard on how to measure length. I couldn't find any specific way of measuring.

    Does anybody know of any publication from F&G that specifies how they want the fish measured? If there isn't a way to make sure that everybody is on the same sheet of music, how are they deciding who's poaching? Seems to me that it could end up as a difference of opinion if they don't publish a specific standard, i.e. middle of the fork, tail pressed together, whatever.
    And I agree that accurately measuring a (struggling) king before you get it out of the water requires a heck of a lot more skill than I have.

    Is there a "salmon whisperer" out there that can teach me how to get them to lie still?

  14. #14

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by fishNphysician View Post
    As in so many other aspects of life, in the face of uncertainty, the precautionary principle should rule the day.

    If in doubt... especially if it is anywhere close to either the upper or lower limit of the slot.... RELEASE!
    +1 of what the "good Doctor" says... If it's that close..release the fish!

    If I had to use a measureing techique that I would want to "stand up in court", I would use the IGF requirements for a record catch and release fish. I doubt if anyone would argue with that. But that's just me.

  15. #15

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by fishNphysician View Post
    As in so many other aspects of life, in the face of uncertainty, the precautionary principle should rule the day.

    If in doubt... especially if it is anywhere close to either the upper or lower limit of the slot.... RELEASE!
    It's a different ball game when you are "guiding" and a guy is on board who paid money for the trip. If the fish is 1/8th of an inch over slot, then the guide is obligated to keep that fish for his client if the client so wishes.

  16. #16

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    It's a different ball game when you are "guiding" and a guy is on board who paid money for the trip. If the fish is 1/8th of an inch over slot, then the guide is obligated to keep that fish for his client if the client so wishes.
    It is not a different ball game when it is a guide! If a guide has any doubt that it could be under the slot, they need to release the fish.

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    Default

    5 AAC 75.995 (12) clearly defines the length of a fish.

    The guide broke the law, blatently lied, and got caught.

    We're not talking a descrepency of 1/2" here folks. We're talking over 2 inches!

    This is a veteran guide who does this professionally. He's measured and sealed fish before. He not only represents the guides as a professional, but the rest of us as sportsfishermen. He also represents our community and how we are perceived to treat our resource.

    He should be punished to the maximum, losing his fishing license and guide license. $110 fine is a joke, and he probably still made money on the trip. It will be interesting to see what the Kenai River Professional Guides Association does.

  18. #18
    Member aces-n-eights's Avatar
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    I saw in the article that the guide was "cited, fined and a court date set." Could the court sentence him to a stiffer penalty than the fine? Why fined now if he is to go to court later?

    I'll bet the client tipped him more than the fine
    English is an odd language. It can understood through tough thorough thought, though.

  19. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grampyfishes View Post
    5 AAC 75.995 (12) clearly defines the length of a fish.

    The guide broke the law, blatently lied, and got caught.

    We're not talking a descrepency of 1/2" here folks. We're talking over 2 inches!

    This is a veteran guide who does this professionally. He's measured and sealed fish before. He not only represents the guides as a professional, but the rest of us as sportsfishermen. He also represents our community and how we are perceived to treat our resource.

    He should be punished to the maximum, losing his fishing license and guide license. $110 fine is a joke, and he probably still made money on the trip. It will be interesting to see what the Kenai River Professional Guides Association does.

    Couldn`t find the statute you listed...could ya link it please. Thanks.

  20. #20
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    http://touchngo.com/lglcntr/akstats/...section995.htm

    (12) "length of fish" means the length from the tip of the snout to the tip of the tail (total length)


    That's about as simple as it gets. Tip to tail. It doesn't say anything about squeezing the tail, measuring along the arc of the fishes body, or diagonal measuring.

    A sling works great. The fish is straight, facing up current, in the water, immobile. Virtually no handling. Measurements are straight, no curve. In fact the measuring tape can be part of the sling's frame.

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