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  1. #1
    Member bushrat's Avatar
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    Default This forum

    (Preface: I was gonna post this yesterday but decided not to. After reading some of the threads this morn, decided to just come out with it.)

    It occurred to me after reading through the latest posts on this fisheries mgmt. forum that this forum isn't really "working." That is, the way I see it it's a place to discuss complicated fisheries management issues (which also deal with allocative issues) in a way whereby we can all learn something about these issues, and about the facts surrounding them. There is no other forum I know of anywhere where we have such expertise on Alaska fisheries issues than this one. I don't know how many here really understand the value and rarity of having a former ADFG fisheries bio and former BOF member posting here. They have a wealth of expertise on Alaska fisheries issues. I was just thinking, I wonder how much longer they will last here?

    This forum has become so "partisan" in its content, slanted toward one interest or another so much, that it's nearly impossible for folks like me to "pull out" the beneficial and useful knowledge from what has become a majority of childish bickering and seemingly-avowed ignorance. It's become like a boxing match among a bunch of blind contestants in a 100' square ring.. People are "swinging," but they have no clue really what they are swinging at, where it is...they are just swinging cuz that is what they do when they enter this forum (ring). I suppose it's "entertaining" and "fun" for some, but it sure prevents a real learning about fisheries issues.
    And that's a shame.

    Hell, we've got one guy here with over 5,000 posts mostly comprised of other people's words. It's ridiculous.


    I don't have any solutions really. Asking folks to talk and act like responsible adults hasn't worked in the past. In the end, we're gonna lose out on the real opportunity to learn and make informed decisions.

  2. #2

    Default

    nicely noted, but, alas while ignorance is curable, stupidity is not, and there is no more socially destructive stupidity than that induced by self-interest.

    it doesn't take much reading for the forum to become totally predictableówho is going to say what and why. most self-interest, once pointed out, is readily transparent, and partisans, while thinking they,re persuasive, are essentially talking to themselves and their choir, making themselves and their sycophants feel good.

    in the end, one must sift the discourse, separating the wheat from the chaff. that,s about all we can hope for.

  3. #3
    Mark
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    Quote Originally Posted by bushrat View Post
    ....the way I see it it's a place to discuss complicated fisheries management issues (which also deal with allocative issues) in a way whereby we can all learn something about these issues, and about the facts surrounding them......

    .....Hell, we've got one guy here with over 5,000 posts mostly comprised of other people's words. It's ridiculous......
    1) Yup. Mostly comprised of quotes with links to references. So "we can all learn something about these issues", not just read somebody's opinions

    2) And that "one guy" doesn't represent any association, non-profit NGO, industry, or other organization, and he doesn't have a link in his signature to his organization. He's just "one guy".

    3) You?

    ....This forum has become so "partisan" in its content, slanted toward one interest or another so much, that it's nearly impossible for folks like me to "pull out" the beneficial and useful knowledge from what has become a majority of childish bickering and seemingly-avowed ignorance.....
    "Partisan"?:

    –noun
    1. an adherent or supporter of a person, group, party, or cause, esp. a person who shows a biased, emotional allegiance.
    2. Military. a member of a party of light or irregular troops engaged in harassing an enemy, esp. a member of a guerrilla band engaged in fighting or sabotage against an occupying army.
    –adjective 3. of, pertaining to, or characteristic of partisans; partial to a specific party, person, etc.: partisan politics.
    4. of, pertaining to, or carried on by military partisans or guerrillas.
    I'm not a member of any party or group except the NRA.

    You?

  4. #4
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    Default

    Bushrat, your comments were just exemplified.

    My only suggestion would be stronger, more-strict moderation, per the rules of the site. No off-topic, personal garbage. But we know that's asking a lot of our moderators, who have other lives too.

    If I'm not mistaken, the creation of the "Management" forum was to remove the contention and argumentative banter that was clogging up the "Fishing" forum. The "Fishing" forum is more enjoyable now. So maybe there is a plus side.

    I too fear about losing some of our most respected members. Hopfully the dark side will cause them inspiration to continue, rather than tire.

  5. #5
    Forum Admin Brian M's Avatar
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    Default

    From where I stand, it seems that there were personal comments, however thinly veiled they might be, in the first three posts in this thread.

    On a positive note, I know that many lurkers have learned a lot from some of the discussion here. I grow weary of the personal comments as well, but there is still good to be found here.

    Strict moderation is great, but the reality is that it's almost impossible to do without at least a majority of members self-censoring themselves. For instance, I was out of town for the past three days with almost zero internet access. In that time there was well over 50 posts added to certain threads here. Since many (most?) of them contained personal comments of some nature, my options are to either let it ride or to zap the entire thread. I've done that at times, but I keep naively hoping that people will take a higher road. Going back and individually moderating 100 individual posts simply is not an option.

  6. #6
    Member chumstik's Avatar
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    Default

    I don't mean to interject, and as an avid reader of both this forum and the fishing forum, I very much respect the rational and scientifically-based opinions of many on here. And hope those voices aren't drowned out by other, more rabid and less informed voices.

    I only comment to say that it is a lot to expect for people who are debating inherently political decisions to refrain from vigorous and often vociferous debate, and to hold back on personal attacks. People being people, I'm fairly certain I've witnessed a little of that going on in the last few elections

    Alaskans are passionate about their resources, everyone has firmly-held political beliefs, and conflict is inevitable. Especially given the anonymity of an Internet discussion.

    I'm actually shocked that there is as much restraint as there is.

  7. #7
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    Default I like "This Forum"

    I am not picking an arguement with you Bushrat, I see your point.

    I don't know how much weight my opinion has, but I am happy the Alaska Fisheries Management Forum was created. I think the Fishing forum should be about discussing FISHING, not management (they both have a place). Besides, before the management forum was created, the fishing forum was overloaded with the key people who discuss these topics in our new Fisheries Management forum. (There is absolutly nothing wrong with arguing or discussing these issues, they just needed a place). Now the general fishing forum is readable, and is more "user friendly". I say let these guys have a place to argue or "discuss" thier opinions/facts. It frees up more space for more question/answer type topics used by MOST of the users on this site (lurkers included).

    I notice whenever a new user has a question in the general fishing forum, NONE of the "experts" in the Alaska Fisheries Management Forum take any time to answer those questions. Then again, maybe that is a good thing. I doubt this board wants to scare away any of the new users.


    Like I said, I totally see your point Bushrat, but where do these people go? How can these people see that thier vast knowledge of what we seek (readers of this website) can be used in better ways other than argueing with eachother?

    As I understand it, this website is about spreading knowledge and appreciation for wildlife and/or game.

  8. #8

    Default what should I say?

    Bumping back up...

    BR, I've been disappointed by this forum too. Mine is because it has great potential that is not being realized.

    Prior to clicking the "submit reply" button, every post should be read out loud to oneself and then the poster should ask: Am I asking good questions that will help me better understand management? ; and/or am I replying in a way that the severely normal alaskan can read the thread and digest the material without being offended. If the answer to either is no, then it should be deleted, walk away from the keyboard and come back later.

    This forum really could contribute to fisheries understanding if it weren't so abused.

    my $ 0.02

    PS just read it out loud and seems ok to me :>)

  9. #9
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    Default

    I also have problems with people and the information they give on this forum.

    When you get older and wiser, you realized that what a person says and believes has more to do with who he is and his agenda and not the truth.

    Letís say a baby poops in its diaper, to the mother and father itís a wonderful thing. I and all the other people who are smelling the diaper know thereís a pile of sxxx in the diaper.

    I have four options:
    I can leave.
    I can tell the mother to leave. (I only want to hear what I know is the truth).
    Or maybe the diaper really doesnít smell that bad.
    Or I can take my baby (my opinion) and go to another room with all the other babies that smell like roses.

    What I am trying to say is maybe the problem is not the baby, itís me.

    What can you expect from a person who is anonymous?

  10. #10
    Member akshrop's Avatar
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    Default

    I am mostly a lurker myself; see post counts to decide for yourself. Anyway, I like almost all the ODD has to offer. I mostly don't get to upset about what anyone has to say/offer. I understand some of what BR is saying, but I disagree with us non-trained individuals, "blind contestants", just junking-up the forum. If we use a resource, we should have a say in how it is managed, even if we don't have initials behind our name. I truly hope that was not your veiw of us BR, because I genuinely respect and learn from your comments, but if it is, then I think you should step back and re-evaluate how elitist and untrue that veiw is. If you only want to discuss management issue with other "PhDs", then maybe the ODD is not the place for that. I certainly hope that this post is not seen as a personal attack, if so, please PM me and then will happily post a public apology if you feel I owe you one.

    Jason Shropshire

  11. #11
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    Default A few observations

    The participants posting on the Fisheries Management forum appears to be too heavily weighted in favor of the commerical fisheries. A more balanced participation from sport and personal use fishermen would make the forum more interesting in my opinion.

    Everyone has their opinions and bias influenced by their past experiences and past and present personal situations. While most of us - especially those of us still working - prefer to hide behind our screen names - some information on the members background and potential alliances would be most usefull in evalaution what one sees posted. I did this early on in the tread I started. A few have done what I did; many others pretenting to be impartial while have histories that most likely influence their opinions.

    Personal attacks tell a lot about the poster and what kind of person they really are. I've been the subject of numerous attacks on the thread because I disagreed with most of the most vocal members. Once someone reponds with a personal attack most people tend to disregard the attacker which can be a real loss if the attacker actually has good information.

    All in all it has been an interesting and informative group. Hopefully most have learned something from visting this forum.
    Living the urban lifestyle so I can pay my way and for my family's needs, and support my country. And you?
    ".. ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country" JFK

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by tvfinak
    The participants posting on the Fisheries Management forum appears to be too heavily weighted in favor of the commerical fisheries. A more balanced participation from sport and personal use fishermen would make the forum more interesting in my opinion.
    The large majority of members posting in the Fisheries Management Forum are sportfishermen, personal use fishermen, and guides. In fact I rarely see a single commercial fishermen posting here. But maybe you could post all the commercial fishermen posting here, tvfinak??....

    Posting isn't a who's who. It's the legitimacy of what's written in the post that counts.

    tvfinak, people here don't even know you. Yet you continually try to paint a picture of yourself as a victim of "personal attack". When really people are simply attacking what you've posted. And in your case, there's a lot to attack, particularly since you never defend your comments or answer the questions.

  13. #13
    Mark
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grampyfishes View Post
    .....you never defend your comments or answer the questions.
    "Defending comments", especially when you're involved, tends to get one into trouble with moderators.

  14. #14
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    Mark, the only one responsible for getting you in trouble with the moderators is YOU.

  15. #15
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    Default WHo said what?

    Where did I state that anyone posting was a commercial fisherman? Perhaps you would care to answer this question yourself and quote me on this one please!

    I did state that there is a lot of bias in the postings as one would expect from ex-commerical fishermen, ex-fish biologists, and others related to the commecial fisheries. Others including the guides and myself are biased towards sports fishing - I don't hide my bias and stated my backgound and affiliations up front. A bias toward something doesn't make anyone wrong or bad but it is nice to know where everyone stands and their backgrounds - then one can better relate to that person's position. Face facts -we all have various bias and prejudices toward and against various things that are based on our life experiences and personal situations. If you claim otherwise please let us all know!

    As to personal attachs you made a lot of erronous assumptions about my fishing skills and many times I fished, and labeled me a whinner without knowing anything about me. I'll call these personal attacks- what do you call them?


    Quote Originally Posted by Grampyfishes View Post
    The large majority of members posting in the Fisheries Management Forum are sportfishermen, personal use fishermen, and guides. In fact I rarely see a single commercial fishermen posting here. But maybe you could post all the commercial fishermen posting here, tvfinak??....

    Posting isn't a who's who. It's the legitimacy of what's written in the post that counts.

    tvfinak, people here don't even know you. Yet you continually try to paint a picture of yourself as a victim of "personal attack". When really people are simply attacking what you've posted. And in your case, there's a lot to attack, particularly since you never defend your comments or answer the questions.
    Living the urban lifestyle so I can pay my way and for my family's needs, and support my country. And you?
    ".. ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country" JFK

  16. #16
    Member bushrat's Avatar
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    Default Ah, Chaos...wish you hadn't bumped this to top

    Just so ya'll know, about 30% of the replies I type on this forum I don't ever post. Chaos gives great advice on that, though I wish this hadn't been bumped back to the top after it faded away <grin>.

    Jason (akshrop), I feel I should respond to your comments. I think this post came about after reading another couple threads, and just being frustrated with what was going on. I also think I wrote it then decided not to post it, but sent it instead to a couple of the moderators to express that frustration. Then the next morning those other threads were even worse, and I went ahead and copied and pasted in what I'd sent the mods. That's how it came about. In no way did I mean to imply that only those with doctorates or mgmt experience should post here...that non-trained individuals shouldn't post their opinions. The analogy about "blind contestants" in a ring had nothing whatsoever to do with "non-trained" individuals.

    I feel the initial post is clear. Anyone familiar with my posts here knows I've long hammered on the notion of "rational" and "respectful" discourse throughout this forum (even though at times I've been a hypocrite and not followed my own, and Chaos', advice <grin>) That was the point behind what I posted, though there was a lot of frustration there too. If I had to do it all over again though, I would not have posted what I did. If it doesn't help then there is no point...and I can't say as it has helped. My advice to others here is to not only do as Chaos advised, but to also pretend that every post you submit is followed by your real name and address, and that if you have a wife or husband, and kids, that you wouldn't mind them reading it.
    Good luck!

  17. #17
    Mark
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grampyfishes View Post
    Originally Posted by Grampyfishes
    .....you never defend your comments or answer the questions.
    Mark, the only one responsible for getting you in trouble with the moderators is YOU.
    Yup.

    And the only time I get in trouble with the moderators is when I'm "defending my comments or answering questions" to YOU.

    Funny how that works, huh?

  18. #18

    Default At east the Fishing Forum is clear:)

    It looks like you guys have said all there is to be said. It seems everyone is back to getting along just like they normally do. I will say, that even though this forum seemingly goes around in circles, every once in a while I do learn something. Now, whether it is true or not is entirely up to debate....Sorry for hijacking this thread with my rambling

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    Quote Originally Posted by tvfinak
    Where did I state that anyone posting was a commercial fisherman?
    Are you saying commercial fishermen were not included in your comment about "balanced participation"? Then what exactly do you mean by "balanced participation" in these posts you claim are heavily weighted in favor of commercial fisheries?

    "The participants posting on the Fisheries Management forum appears to be too heavily weighted in favor of the commerical fisheries. A more balanced participation from sport and personal use fishermen would make the forum more interesting in my opinion." - tvfinak


    Quote Originally Posted by tvfinak
    As to personal attachs you made a lot of erronous assumptions about my fishing skills and many times I fished, and labeled me a whinner without knowing anything about me. I'll call these personal attacks- what do you call them?
    I call them the way I see them. I didn't attack your fishing skills or number how many times you fished. You should reference your accusations. However, you obvioiusly passed up good fishing opportunity while you were whining on the computer about "no fish". Sometimes the truth hurts.

    tvfinak, what exactly is your goal while posting here in the Management Forum?

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark
    Quote Originally Posted by Mark
    "Defending comments", especially when you're involved, tends to get one into trouble with moderators.
    Yup.

    And the only time I get in trouble with the moderators is when I'm "defending my comments or answering questions" to YOU.

    Funny how that works, huh?
    Again Mark, the only one responsible for getting you in trouble with the moderators is YOU. So take it up with YOURSELF. This isn't the place. Some of us would like to discuss Fisheries Management issues.

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