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Thread: Razor vs ragged broad head edge?

  1. #1
    Member Rick P's Avatar
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    Default Razor vs ragged broad head edge?

    Ok no one else seems to be willing to ask so I will, do you prefer a razor sharp edge on your broad heads or do you just "hit them with a file" too produce a more ragged "serrated" edge?

    Seems like "hit them with a file" folks tend too be traditional shooters, while wheelies tend too go for the razors edge approach. In my own experiments there is little difference in penetration(50 lbs recurve at 20 yards) I do know from my experience as a RN that clean cuts produced by very sharp objects seal quickly and bleed less than ragged cuts. There's some evidence in nature too support the ragged approach as well, sharks and many predatory dinosaurs have/had teeth with micro serrations to aid in cutting flesh. I would think post shot damage to internal organs would be about the same. What are your thoughts?
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  2. #2

    Cool Single Bevel edge

    Your question is an age old question, sort of like "which came first the chicken or the egg".....In today's disposable society many folks, particularly the high tech compound shooters seem to gravitate toward the replaceable blade broadheads, which predominantly all have a razor's edge. You are correct in identifying the traditional shooters as those more prone to using a file to sharpen what amounts to a burr upon the edge of a solid, fixxed blade broadhead.

    I submit the most current independent research that I've come across indicates the best broadhead blade style to use for hunting big game animals would be a solid blade, without vents which are prone to deformation via swaging upon impact with heavy bone. Stay away from anything aluminum, (I've never seen a slogan, "Strong as Aluminum"), even an aluminum center ferrule. The shape of cutting edge should be of a single bevel design, cut on contact tip, filed down to a Tanto type point. The single bevel cutting edge has been proven time and time again to split bone, rather than the double edged blade wich tends to slice through bone. Splitting bone is a much more efficient means of passing an arrow through the animal over that of cutting through bone. Stay away from needle tip points as they peal back into a roll-up situation. Once a tip is rolled, penetration all but stops. And in answer to your original question the razor stroped edge is the better choice, but on the single bevel edge design. There are only a handful of manufacturers today that offer a single bevel edge to their broadhead product and none that I am aware offering the singel bevel edge in a replaceable blade broadhead.

    The way most archers tend to build arrows should be rethinked as well. Most of today's archer seeks a light arrow for speed to aid in shot placement. Speed affords a greater margin of error in shot distance estimation. However, for penetration purposes an arrow built with a high Forward of Center weight distribution and a higher overall weight will afford a greater momentum, imparting greater force of impact to drive that broadhead through the animal. Forget the Kinetic Energy equation, the momentum equation is the more appropriate equation for bowhunting. Consider an arrow of at least 10 and preferrably 12 grains per pound of draw. In your case of a 50 lbs draw recurve (I assume that 50# is at the draw length that you pull) that would be at least a 500 grain arrow or better yet a 600 grain arrow to acheive that all important pass through, even when confronted by bone mass.

    Admittedly the stated position taken above will not set well with the high tech compound crowd. This position is equally appropriate to the high tech crowd as it is to the traditional shooters. But folks will naturaly have their own opinions...

  3. #3
    Member Rick P's Avatar
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    Wow concise and well written. BTW I shoot a 5575 gold tip with a 125gr zwickey Eskimo, all the research I did agrees with yours and I always like to go with the K. I. S. S. approach. That puts me at 625gr total arrow weight. I tried a lighter arrow but found it's accuracy was all over the place in my limited experience I've found with my bow a heavier arrow has better penetration and is more stable than a lighter one.

    BTW did anyone else read the article on "bird points" in Primitive archer? Fascinating stuff we may need to re think the idea that smaller maybe better.

    Almost forgot, I dont know how much I'm actually pulling the bow is rated at 50# at 28 inches...I'm 6'4" and I know I'm drawing more like 32 inches, I only cut 2 inches off a 36 inch arrow shaft. Same with my "bunny bow" it's rated at 25# but feels and shoots more like 30#.
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  4. #4

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    I've been hunting with archery tackle for a lot of years and always with a compound and I totally agree with ex1811's diatribe. There's certainly a place for speed but the all to coveted pass throughs are mathematically and practically more likely with a heavier arrow.
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    Ricky, you can add about 3# per inch of draw on the avaerage trad bow, so you should be in the 61-63# range at your draw.
    Put me down as a heavy arrow guy too. I like a min. of 10 gr per #. I'm shooting Grizzly Stick Alaskas.

    As far as your original question, I'm currently shooting Wensel Woodsman heads & seem to get a better edge on them with a file than with a stone. I get them to the hair shaving point with a file, then when I try &finish them up with light strokes on a diamond stone, I loose the edge. Wierd. That said, I'm comfortable with the file edge on them.
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  6. #6
    Moderator Daveinthebush's Avatar
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    Default Razor sharp

    I go with razor sharp. I shoot a compound but my arrows are still 525 grains. At 70 pounds it is all I will ever need. For moose I have gone as heavy as 575. With today's sharpening tools it is not difficult to obtain a razor sharp edge.

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  7. #7
    Member Kay9Cop's Avatar
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    I believe heavier is better than speed and I shoot a compound. My arrows are close to 500 grains in weight (489 iirc) and I like 125 grain broadheads over the 100s. I initially chose Magnus Stingers for my broadhead, but found the newer, shorter heads to be more accurate at longer distances.
    "Beware the man with only one gun; he may know how to use it."

  8. #8

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    I sharpen all my magnus snuffers with a large ******* file. Just because I get the serrated edge does not give me the excuse for my broadheads not to shave hair cleanly off my arm. If it does not shave hair its not sharp end of story.

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    I shoot Thunderhead 125's on the end of a Gold Tip Big Game 100. Not a lightweight arrow by any means but i shoot through big Minnesota whitetails the long way. Took out both shoulders on one. I am not a fan of super light arrows.

  10. #10

    Default arrow weight distribution

    Gentleman,
    It's not ONLY just the weight of the arrow but how that weight is distributed within the arrow which will maximize momentum.

    A high Forward of Center weight distribution will aid in impact monentum by not allowing the arrow to flex at point of impact. With the vast majority of weight at the tip end the nock end of the arrow is just along for the ride.

    For instance, I shoot a 70# long bow that is center cut. The arrow weighs 815 grains total weight. The arrow is an Easton Axis 340 arrow and is selected initially to be over spined for my equipment setup. I put a 100 grain brass HIT insert (rather than the standard 16 grain aluminum that comes with Axis arrows) on the inside of the arrow. On the outside of the arrow I glue up a 3 inch section of a Easton 2016 (35 grains) arrow to "foot" the arrow for added strength at the point of weakness on any carbon arrow, that being the point to which the broadhead fastens to the arrow. The footing completely encases the HIT insert and the broadhead threads. All glueing is done with JB Weld epoxy. Then the 2 blade Grizzly Grande 190 grain is glued to a 125 grain tapered insert, for a total broadhead weight of 315 grains. So, at the business end of that arrow I'll have a 315 grain broadhead, 100 grain insert and 35 grain "footing" for a total of 450 grains hanging off the first 3 inches of the arrow shaft. The added weight the to front end of the arrow "weakens" the spine sufficiently such that the formerly overspine arrow is now back in line with a balanced and matched bow/arrow combination. More that half the weight of the arrow is contained within the first 3 inches of the arrow. At the moment of impact, particularly with heavy bone, that arrow is not flexing much at all, which of course aids penetration.

    Of course that broadhead is sharpened enough to shave hair but again the type of cutting surface is a single bevel design, which maximizes penetration through splitting of bone rather than the normal cutting through bone characteristic of a more common double bevel sharping. Another interesting not about single bevel design broadheads is that when bone is not encounter they tend to cut not as a slit but in an "L" shaped configuration, twisting as they pass through soft tissue.

    With this arrow (using a similar weight field point) and my bow I can drive it through a cement block without visible damage to the arrow and reshoot the arrow with only a flattening of the field tip.

    To anticipate questions about a Forward of Center arrow, No gravity does not force the tip down any quicker in flight than if the weight was evenly distributed within the arrow. The weight being highly Forward of Center, (in my case about 26%) substantially aids in penetration. Granted accuracy in long shots beyond 40 yards suffer, not due to Forward of Center wieght distribution, but due to higher arrow mass weight. But then I don't shoot beyond 35 yards at any animal with my bow. That's just a personal thing and the subject of an entirely different discussion.

  11. #11
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    Love the continous taper of the Grizzly Sticks for a high FOC
    Vance in AK.

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  12. #12
    Moderator Daveinthebush's Avatar
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    Default Don't think so

    Quote Originally Posted by BowHunter89 View Post
    I sharpen all my magnus snuffers with a large ******* file. Just because I get the serrated edge does not give me the excuse for my broadheads not to shave hair cleanly off my arm. If it does not shave hair its not sharp end of story.
    The file you want to use is a Single Mill file, not a bas..... file. Single Mills are for steel, the other is for wood and other materials.

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  13. #13
    Member Rick P's Avatar
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    Article in "traditional bow hunter" about single bevel broad heads that really brings home EX1811,s points. Personally I'm sold.
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  14. #14

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    Dave in the bush.

    Do think so because that is what I use. It works wonders and gives me one heck of sharp broadhead.

  15. #15
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    New to this forum, but agree with the single bevel heads.
    Did quite a bit of research two years ago and ended up buying Outback Supremes. Didn't get an opportunity to kill anything the first year, but did so with them last Fall.
    Completely satisfied with the performance of the single bevel; shot head on at about 19 yards. Deer was at same level as me due to terrain of stand area. Caught it a bit higher than desired, but arrow traveled through tip of right shoulder and almost through bottom portion of left pelvic bone. Evidence of splitting was obvious and while I did not achieve a full pass through, the Outback Supreme did quite a number on the two bones it came in contact with. Arrow weight is close to 525; 125 gr head, feathers, and 30" Gold Tip shaft.
    Clipping through the right lung ended life, but tracking was quite the job due to the high point of entry and no exit hole. Kind of odd as bleed out was at end of blood trail rather than at the beginning. The angle of shot will not be attempted again at a head on angle, but I am now even more confident at making a clean kill at this head on angle.
    Thinking about making a move toward one of the GrizzlyStik heads, but really like the flight characteristics of the Outback heads. Anyone have feedback regarding this?

    Regards,
    Tom

  16. #16

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    Heavy arrow. Razor sharp cut to point head. Razor cuts. Serrated tears. Single or double bevel won't matter much as long as you put it in the basket. Arrow flight is really the most important part of the equation.

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