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Thread: Kenai late run reds managed for commercial harvest

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    Default Kenai late run reds managed for commercial harvest

    The Kenai River late red run is "managed primarily for commercial harvest" per the AK F&G. See: http://cf.adfg.state.ak.us/region2/p...ockeye08mp.pdf

    Sport fisher man get a "reasonable" chance to catch salmon resources - this approach considers that only "275,000 angler days" were spent on the most fished river in AK.

    I see no mention of consideration of dip netters at all in the referenced document.

    With this management plan we should all understand why the boats go out with their walls of death while we are trying to spend out precious weekends trying to catch a few fish for our freezers.

    More fisheries managemetn information at: http://www.sf.adfg.state.ak.us/state..._StratPlan.pdf and http://www.cf.adfg.state.ak.us/regio...kenairiver.php

    Stay informed - know where you stand in the big scheme of things.
    Living the urban lifestyle so I can pay my way and for my family's needs, and support my country. And you?
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    Forum Admin Brian M's Avatar
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    Where we stand is that the dipnet fishery is a fairly recent creation specifically tailored to meet the needs of Alaskan residents who are trying to feed their families. Commercial windows are being dictated that will fall right before/during the weekend in order to put more fish into the river for dipnetters and sportfishermen.

    What would you have happen? If this isn't enough, what would be?

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    Default Change

    I would change the management strategy so that the majority of the users - sport fishermen and personal use - are primary consideration in the management plan.

    A good start would be to at least include the personal use in the plan!


    Quote Originally Posted by Brian M View Post
    Where we stand is that the dipnet fishery is a fairly recent creation specifically tailored to meet the needs of Alaskan residents who are trying to feed their families. Commercial windows are being dictated that will fall right before/during the weekend in order to put more fish into the river for dipnetters and sportfishermen.

    What would you have happen? If this isn't enough, what would be?
    Living the urban lifestyle so I can pay my way and for my family's needs, and support my country. And you?
    ".. ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country" JFK

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    Just a question from someone in the lower 48. when the comercial guys are out does it totaly shut the river down?

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    Quote Originally Posted by kgpcr View Post
    Just a question from someone in the lower 48. when the comercial guys are out does it totaly shut the river down?
    No. Some will say yes, but I have had fantastic fishing when the commercial nets are out.

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    Default Wall of death

    The popular phrase for all the commercial boats out with their nets is the "wall of death". Stretching nets accross most of the mouth of the river certainly catches a lot of the fish. You can see some of the effects in the weir count 20 mi. upstream I have noticed.

    I'm certain some have had good luck with the nets out but the phrase didn't come into popular being from a lot of people having a lot of luck. All of us aren't lousy fishermen and the dip netting thing isn't quite like sport fishing where a lot of skill is involved!


    Quote Originally Posted by kgpcr View Post
    Just a question from someone in the lower 48. when the comercial guys are out does it totaly shut the river down?
    Living the urban lifestyle so I can pay my way and for my family's needs, and support my country. And you?
    ".. ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country" JFK

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    Moderator Paul H's Avatar
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    The commercial guys don't head out there with the intent of allowing plenty of fish past them for the dipnetters I've personally seen the commercial nets have an affect on the catch in my dipnet.

    I'm more concerned about timing than anything this year. Typically I'll head down the 15th to 18th, but I'm wondering if its even worth heading down before the last week of the run.

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    It has WAY more to do with HOW MANY SALMON are running than nets in or out of the water. If 500,000 to 1,000,000 reds are heading towards the kenai you'll catch some regardless.

    If you watch numbers, and the offshore test fishery (to make a better guess that's all) you can usually do well.

    If few fish are running you will have a hard time catching fish. If the nets are out then it's easy to blame them I guess. I've been there when they go out, and the river shuts down. I've been there when they go out and the fishing gets better. Throw in the fact that the lower river is kind of hard to fish, and distance from shore can vary it is difficult for many to catch reds period. Do I LOVE seeing them go out if I drove a hundred miles? No, but I understand it has way more to do with sheer numbers. I could have saved time and $$ buying them at safeway if it was all about catching fish. I like FISHING.

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    Default Personal Use Fishery...

    Quote Originally Posted by tvfinak View Post
    I would change the management strategy so that the majority of the users - sport fishermen and personal use - are primary consideration in the management plan.

    A good start would be to at least include the personal use in the plan!

    The P U Fishery is not included in the management other then a means to control over escapement... This fishery is not one to be managed for. doubt at it's conception that the mng's ever intended >250,000 fish to be harvested by the means of Personal Use.

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    Default Alright Already

    We have another thread pitting commercial against sport/PU's... there's a shock. The regs have been changed for comm guys to not only allow more fish for weekend dippers but they have also had a reduction in space from 2 miles offshore to one mile offshore in some areas; this is a new thing for us dippers and I feel that we should give it a chance before we judge. If it doesn't work out, then we can all voice our opinions at next year's BOF public hearings. It's still way early in the run for the 2nd slug of reds and although the first was lackluster to say the least; it was a mirror of last year if you look at the escapement numbers. Our voices WERE heard this last spring and although we are not mentioned by name as personal use users; we do fall under the "sport" category and that is mentioned under the new management plan. Let's put down our fillet knives and pitch forks and hold off on the lynching until we see how this starts to work out. Anyone else with me on this?
    "He who is slow to anger is better than the mighty, and he who rules his spirit is better than he who takes a city." ~ Proverbs 16:32

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    Default No conflict intented

    I my person in starting the thread was to show that the official purpose of the management of the Kenai River late run sockeye was to give the maximum benefit to the commercial fishermen.

    Sport and personal use fishermen can't blame the commercial fisherman for for catching every fish they can under the current policy. The commercial fishermen aren't in business to please us - they are in business to make as much money as they can as quickly as they can. A significant number of them don't even live here - it is unrealistic to expect them to be concerned with sport and dip net fisheremen. Face facts - all of us would feel the same way if we were commercial guys.

    While the F&G may throw us a few scrapes occasinally the real solution is to change the management policy so that the most fished river in AK with tens of thousands of fishermen is managed for the sport and personal use fishermen - not for a few commercal interests.

    Don't scream at the commercial guys- work with the F&G to get the policy changed - not just give us a few more minor concessions for temporary appeasement.


    Quote Originally Posted by Back Country Robb View Post
    We have another thread pitting commercial against sport/PU's... there's a shock. The regs have been changed for comm guys to not only allow more fish for weekend dippers but they have also had a reduction in space from 2 miles offshore to one mile offshore in some areas; this is a new thing for us dippers and I feel that we should give it a chance before we judge. If it doesn't work out, then we can all voice our opinions at next year's BOF public hearings. It's still way early in the run for the 2nd slug of reds and although the first was lackluster to say the least; it was a mirror of last year if you look at the escapement numbers. Our voices WERE heard this last spring and although we are not mentioned by name as personal use users; we do fall under the "sport" category and that is mentioned under the new management plan. Let's put down our fillet knives and pitch forks and hold off on the lynching until we see how this starts to work out. Anyone else with me on this?
    Living the urban lifestyle so I can pay my way and for my family's needs, and support my country. And you?
    ".. ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country" JFK

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian M View Post
    Commercial windows are being dictated that will fall right before/during the weekend in order to put more fish into the river for dipnetters and sportfishermen.

    What would you have happen? If this isn't enough, what would be?
    even though the windows are good for us they are still not good enough. Take for instance the 36hr. closure it's perfect but make it start at 7pm. fri. don't give them the chance to to start it 7am. thursday so they can start fishing at 7am sat. and make everyone on the beach and boats work there ***** off for 10 fish. Make it 7pm so they can't fish until sunday morning and will better are chances of catch success. It is nice to see them doing these windows now it's a start i will say that. For another thing if they have an E.O. that allows them to fish from 12 noon til 12 noon the next day it should be allowed the we fish that night as well or if they have an E.O. for 7am to 7pm for a day the are not scheduled to be out we should be allowed to fish overnight

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    Quote Originally Posted by tvfinak View Post
    While the F&G may throw us a few scrapes occasinally
    Scraps. Over a million fish in river is scraps.


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    Quote Originally Posted by 06tributeman View Post
    For another thing if they have an E.O. that allows them to fish from 12 noon til 12 noon the next day it should be allowed the we fish that night as well or if they have an E.O. for 7am to 7pm for a day the are not scheduled to be out we should be allowed to fish overnight
    Now that seems like a reasonable solution.

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    Robb - Very well written post. Thank you for injecting some reason into this discussion, particularly since you are a very vocal supporter of personal use dipnetting.

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    "Stretching nets accross most of the mouth of the river certainly catches a lot of the fish."- tvfinak

    Commercial nets do not stretch across the mouth of the river, the only nets in the mouth are the dipnetter's. Talk about a "wall of death". Threads like this that pit the commercial vs. sport are old. My good friend (from Oregon) takes 3 weeks off a year to fish the Kenai in July, he claims they will be catching fish like crazy and there will still be guys whining about how the commercial guys are getting all the fish, or how the river isn't managed fairly. It's the same whining and complaining that occassionaly occurs on this board. The well-informed know that Alaska's management is the best there is, the ignorant and hard-to-please whine and complain about it not being fair.

    "they are in business to make as much money as they can as quickly as they can. A significant number of them don't even live here"-tvfinak

    The problem is, commercial guys haven't made any real money for 15+ years (you probably didn't know that), that is why you see old boats (new ones won't be built when the fisherman cannot pay for them), and only about 2/3rds of the drift fleet are out fishing. Cook Inlet has approx. 571 drift permits, about 1/3 of those permit owners do not even show up to go fishing. Most of those not showing up to fish are those guys that "don't even live here". Alaska residents own 400 of those 571 permits, 171 out of state permit owners. And what rule says you are required to live in Alaska to commercially harvest fish? Some guys don't want to move to Alaska to fish a 3 week commercial salmon season.
    Last edited by Powderpro; 07-10-2008 at 04:19. Reason: additions

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    Commercial fishing lets people who can't afford to come here from other parts of the country to go sport fishing the chance to eat salmon, halibut, and other species they would not otherwise have access to. Is it fair that only people that can afford to come to Alaska get to eat the public resource of wild salmon and halibut? Anyone who thinks they are saving money by sportfishing instead of buying fish to eat is kidding themselves.
    Last edited by beluga; 07-10-2008 at 08:22. Reason: typo

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    Default Life ins't fair

    Show me where I mentioned that something wasn't "fair"! My complaint was the stated goal of the Kenai River management: "to maximimize the commercial harvest". For the most fished river in AK with an average of 275,000 angler days I think the priority is in the wrong place - the interest of a few hundred commercial fishermen instead of the interests of tens of thousands of sport and personal use fishermen. I'm not saying to shut down the commercial harvest or do away with commercial fishing - just change the priority so that the management favors the vast majority of the users rather of a very small minority. Perhaps I should complain that it isn't "fair"?

    You claim out the commercial guys aren't even making that much money - if commercial fishing isn't economical the reason to shift the priority is even more valid on an economic basis. Perhaps I should feel sorry for them - but then again I don't recall the commercial fishermen helping any other victims of changing economic conditions.

    As to the out of state permit holders: What you are clearly stating is that you agree that an out of state commercial fisherman should have priority over residents of Alaska that dip net and /or sportfish! I personally have strong feeling against that priority - yet under current management rules that is exactly what is happening.

    Stretching nets across the mouth of the river is somewhat of a figure of speech as is "wall of death'. Likewise most of the dipnetting is upstream from the mouth also.

    I strongly object to your labeling me as being "ignorant and hard-to-please". This type of behavior is not construction to the resolution of common problems and certainly does not help the interest of any fishermen - sport or commercial.

    Quote Originally Posted by Powderpro View Post
    "Stretching nets accross most of the mouth of the river certainly catches a lot of the fish."- tvfinak

    Commercial nets do not stretch across the mouth of the river, the only nets in the mouth are the dipnetter's. Talk about a "wall of death". Threads like this that pit the commercial vs. sport are old. My good friend (from Oregon) takes 3 weeks off a year to fish the Kenai in July, he claims they will be catching fish like crazy and there will still be guys whining about how the commercial guys are getting all the fish, or how the river isn't managed fairly. It's the same whining and complaining that occassionaly occurs on this board. The well-informed know that Alaska's management is the best there is, the ignorant and hard-to-please whine and complain about it not being fair.

    "they are in business to make as much money as they can as quickly as they can. A significant number of them don't even live here"-tvfinak

    The problem is, commercial guys haven't made any real money for 15+ years (you probably didn't know that), that is why you see old boats (new ones won't be built when the fisherman cannot pay for them), and only about 2/3rds of the drift fleet are out fishing. Cook Inlet has approx. 571 drift permits, about 1/3 of those permit owners do not even show up to go fishing. Most of those not showing up to fish are those guys that "don't even live here". Alaska residents own 400 of those 571 permits, 171 out of state permit owners. And what rule says you are required to live in Alaska to commercially harvest fish? Some guys don't want to move to Alaska to fish a 3 week commercial salmon season.
    Living the urban lifestyle so I can pay my way and for my family's needs, and support my country. And you?
    ".. ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country" JFK

  19. #19

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    . . My complaint was the stated goal of the Kenai River management: "to maximimize the commercial harvest". For the most fished river in AK with an average of 275,000 angler days I think the priority is in the wrong place - the interest of a few hundred commercial fishermen instead of the interests of tens of thousands of sport and personal use fishermen.
    to characterize the kenai fishery as a contest between sport/pu and "a few hundred commercial fishermen" is demagoguery and a gross misrepresentation of the truth.

    the kenai fishery is prioritized for commercial harvest for the sake of state revenues, maximum benefit derived from the resource, and in the interests of the hundreds of millions of people who buy their salmon in stores and restaurants.

    in the meantime, alaska,s board of fisheries has made sure there is no lack of opportunity or fish for sport and personal use fishers.

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    Default No contest

    I didn't characterize anything as a contest- the management plan defines how the run is to be divided - check it out. It is not a contest - the commerical fisheries get priority while hopefully a minimum escapement is met. If the run is low the sportfishermen get shutout while the commerical fishermen still get their catch- it is all spelled out by the F&G in 5 AAC 21.360!

    As to the contribution to the state treasury by the Kenai commercial fisheries - I would like to see the figures if you have them. It couldn't be even significant compared to the oil and gas revenues in any event.

    "Maximum benefits" is exactly what I am talking about - tens of thousands of benefactors vs. a few hundred. A significant number of the oil and gas workers who bring in all the state revenue are amoung the tens of thousands incidently and before you ask I am not one of them.

    As to "the interest of hundreds of millions of people who buy their salmon in stores and restaruants" - you really break my heart! Let them eat farmed fish - most don't know the difference anyway. We don't get good fresh produce (ever find a really great tomato or peach) up here and they don't get good fresh salmon - it is all a trade off according to where you live.


    Quote Originally Posted by Gretchen View Post
    to characterize the kenai fishery as a contest between sport/pu and "a few hundred commercial fishermen" is demagoguery and a gross misrepresentation of the truth.

    the kenai fishery is prioritized for commercial harvest for the sake of state revenues, maximum benefit derived from the resource, and in the interests of the hundreds of millions of people who buy their salmon in stores and restaurants.

    in the meantime, alaska,s board of fisheries has made sure there is no lack of opportunity or fish for sport and personal use fishers.
    Living the urban lifestyle so I can pay my way and for my family's needs, and support my country. And you?
    ".. ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country" JFK

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