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Thread: Beretta Malfunction Drills

  1. #1

    Default Beretta Malfunction Drills

    I'm a Glock shooter for the most part, but I have a friend who shoots a Beretta 92. I'm not familiar with the procedure for malfunction drills with this firearm. I'm sure you military guys could educate me. JOAT, do you have any suggestions?

    My friend is getting type 1 and 3 malfunctions bad. He's a new shooter and is limp wristing it. Anyway, I've done what I can to correct that problem, but I want to be able to correctly explain the clearing procedure when it occurs. I assume similar to the Glock, but racking the slide cannot happen in the same way because of the safety mounted on the slide. I was taught not to "slingshot" the slide, but when I do the Glock method "rack" from the top it activates the stupid safety half the time on the Beretta. Anyway, all this to say that I would like info on proper manipulation of the Beretta while performing malfunction drills.

  2. #2
    Member stevelyn's Avatar
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    I'm an APSC firearms instructor.

    It's been awhile since I've picked up a Beretta, but malfunction clearing is pretty much the same with all semi-autos since they all operate on the same principle and the all gag on the same types of malfunctions.

    I would continue to clear the malfunctions the same as taught with an additional step of placing the safety in the "Fire" position whether it needs it or not, as the last step before firing.

    Yes it adds a fraction of a second to the procedure, but it still keeps it simple by not having to rethink and relearn a more complicated and unnecessary method of gripping the slide that may not work in the real world under stress.

    Of course the best malfunction clearance is avoiding them entirely when possible.

    Stressing he use proper grip with push/pull isometric pressure will help with the limp-wristing.

    Or you could tell him to get rid of that overrated spaghetti pistol and get himself a Glock or S&W M&P.
    Now what ?

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    I have no formal training with the Model 92 or M9 but have fiddled with it some and find it a very frustrating pistol from just about every angle. It would be a very long post to list the many ill conceived points of its design.

    It has notoriously been finicky about grip. The most likely to stop from limp-wristing of any pistol. The low mass slide and the muzzle point referenced to that mass just produce stoppages with poor grip. It is also finicky about ammo. It is also more difficult (slower) to clear because of the slide top being gone and the poorly located/designed safety/lockwork it is just a big pain in the butt. It seems the folks who have them think a lot of the piece but folks with some expereience with a good gun of any type lockwork don't care for the Beretta.

    Be that as it may it is what it is and if you want to own one you must develop a system to use it effectively and that includes a clearing technique to allow the user to stay in the fight.

    I dislike the sling shot technique and won't recommend it for any auto loader but if any could ever benefit from that snap cycle the Beretta could. There is really nothing else to get a good grasp of on that slide. We could use the opposing hands push/pull technique but again would take more time and possible moving the left foot to stay oriented to the front. This would still require the safety flip up to be incorporated in the routine as it will be most likely be needed. The sling shot will almost always pull the safety lever down (on safe) and the hammer would then follow the slide home to its rest. This would then require the thumb safety to be flipped up and the next shot to be double action. Any normal slide grasp and pull/push technique will not go so well with the Beretta.

    To shoot this gun as a defensive pistol, in a get down and get dirty type of shoot that requires stoppage recovery and tactical reloads as well as weak/strong hand manipulation is just a tough operation for even an experienced gunner. I have always tried to become proficient with the many different types of lockwork to be able to demonstrate the technique for students that insist on dragging in every piece of equipment that has ever been made. It can be exhausting trying to develop any sort of eficiency of use with such a poorly designed piece of ........gun.

    If this is starting to sound as if I'm down on the M92, my plan is working. I would like to discourage others from spending their wife's hard earned money on such a contraption.
    Is there nothing so sacred on this earth that you aren't willing to kill or die for?



  4. #4

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    I have a 92fs that was given to me by my father-in-law when he passed away a few years back. It was my first pistol that that I owned larger in caliber than a 22.

    It's basically the pistol that turned me into a junior gun nut. I didn't feel comfortable shooting the gun without proper training so I enrolled in a class over at Alaska Tactical in Anchorage. (Defensive Handgun 1) I learned a lot in that class. One of the things I learned after the weekend at the range is that I really don't care for the pistol. It's a decent enough shooter at the range, but there are better guns out there.

    Steve at Alaska tactical teaches the slingshot method for aggressive clearing of the gun during malfunctions and racking the slide to reload. The model 92 will just plain rip up your hand after a short while. Too many sharp edges! The decocker/safety will also engage with that technique at times. That in itself makes it less than desirable for defense in my opinion.

    I now greatly prefer my 1911, Kahr K9, and my S&W 642 (revolver). The next class I'll take is going to be with my 1911.

    We're definately keeping the gun for sentimental reasons and will continue to take it to the range. I really wish I had taken the time to take it out to shoot while my father-in-law was alive. I think he'd be happy to know we use his gun and that myself and his little girl(my wife), now greatly enjoy the shooting sports together. Thanks Joe!

  5. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by stevelyn View Post
    Stressing he use proper grip with push/pull isometric pressure will help with the limp-wristing.

    Or you could tell him to get rid of that overrated spaghetti pistol and get himself a Glock or S&W M&P.
    Yeah, I showed him a proper Weaver grip. We'll see how that works for him. I agree, the gun sucks, but I can't tell him that... it's a brand new gun that his grandfather bought for him. I got pinched pretty good demonstrating a type 3 drill. How's the M&P in the reliability department? I'll say it's the most ergonomic handgun I've ever held. I think it just needs some years to prove itself. It's gonna be pretty tough to dethrone the Glock!

    Thanks for the input guys!

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    Quote Originally Posted by akav8r View Post
    It's gonna be pretty tough to dethrone the Glock!
    What throne is the Glock on???
    Long live the 1911 & the EAA Witness! (Oh, & the HP)
    Vance in AK.

    Matthew 6:33
    "But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added to you."

  7. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vance in AK View Post
    What throne is the Glock on???
    Long live the 1911 & the EAA Witness! (Oh, & the HP)
    I'm not sure it's a throne, but the Glock has a huge following in the LE community. Issue guns for LE agencies in AK are pretty much universally Glock. I like 1911s, but I'll tell you that the guns that have puked out during certain multi-agency training have been 1911s while their Glock counterparts kept operating. In general, 1911s take work to keep them operating properly. When is the last time you saw a HP or an EAA Witness / CZ-75 on a duty belt? I know, I know, they're classics, but my point is that the Glock has a much larger following and has the lion's share of the LE market. It's entrenched and it's going to take a lot to move it. I think S&W has made a good attempt with a combination of competitive price, improved ergonomics, ambidextrous and reversible controls, magazine capacity, and a more standard grip angle. Smith claims that the ability to disassemble it without pressing the trigger is a big thing too. That particular feature doesn't really impress me much. As a matter of fact, if you press the trigger it is a whole lot easier to disassemble. Otherwise, you have to use some sort of tool (as simple as a ballpoint pen) to rotate the sear release lever. I don't like the magazine disconnect feature, although there are valid arguments on both sides of that debate. Anyway, we'll see what kind of progress S&W can make.

  8. #8

    Default A Glock Vs. 1911 thread!???

    I've never heard of such a thing.

  9. #9

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    I don't currently own a Berretta, but I was a small arms instructor in the USAF for 20 years, 8 spent here at Elmendorf...the M9 was our issue pistol since the late 80s and I've taught many thousands of people how to operate this weapon, including how to clear stoppages. Immediate action drills for the M9/92FS (as has already been pointed out) are juat about the same as any other auto..."tap, rack, fire" (or "ready" if you prefer). The DA/SA autos with a slide mounted safety do present a problem with inadvertent activation of the safety/decocking lever when racking the slide, especially if using the slingshot method. Best way I found to avoid that is to reach over the top with the weak hand and grasp the slide serations just in front of the safety lever with the thumb and index finger...sorta like you would if you're going to lock the slide back manually. For a right handed shooter the left hand will be cupped over the top of the slide palm down with the thumb on the left and the index finger on the right using sort of a push pull method while making sure you don't let your fingers slip back far enough to engage the safety. About all you can do is practice that method over and over until it becomes routine. The Beretta is a good pistol...better than some, not as good as others and certainly not for everyone, but I don't share the opinion that it is a piece of junk and I wouldn't hesitate to carry one again if I had to. Like others have said, I grew to dislike the slide mounted safety type pistols (although I do own a S&W 1006) and have stuck with my 1911 and BHP. I've owned a couple of Glocks and agree they are reliable, but I just don't like the plastic framed guns...old fashioned I guess.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vance in AK View Post
    What throne is the Glock on???
    Long live the 1911 & the EAA Witness! (Oh, & the HP)

    It's right at the top of the tactical tupperware list.

    The Glock is like the dumpy, geeky, goofy guy in school that gets to take the best looking girl in school to the prom. He don't look like much, but he's got something going.
    Is there nothing so sacred on this earth that you aren't willing to kill or die for?



  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by gunblade View Post
    I don't currently own a Berretta, but I was a small arms instructor in the USAF for 20 years, 8 spent here at Elmendorf...the M9 was our issue pistol since the late 80s and I've taught many thousands of people how to operate this weapon, including how to clear stoppages. Immediate action drills for the M9/92FS (as has already been pointed out) are juat about the same as any other auto..."tap, rack, fire" (or "ready" if you prefer). The DA/SA autos with a slide mounted safety do present a problem with inadvertent activation of the safety/decocking lever when racking the slide, especially if using the slingshot method. Best way I found to avoid that is to reach over the top with the weak hand and grasp the slide serations just in front of the safety lever with the thumb and index finger...sorta like you would if you're going to lock the slide back manually. For a right handed shooter the left hand will be cupped over the top of the slide palm down with the thumb on the left and the index finger on the right using sort of a push pull method while making sure you don't let your fingers slip back far enough to engage the safety. About all you can do is practice that method over and over until it becomes routine. The Beretta is a good pistol...better than some, not as good as others and certainly not for everyone, but I don't share the opinion that it is a piece of junk and I wouldn't hesitate to carry one again if I had to. Like others have said, I grew to dislike the slide mounted safety type pistols (although I do own a S&W 1006) and have stuck with my 1911 and BHP. I've owned a couple of Glocks and agree they are reliable, but I just don't like the plastic framed guns...old fashioned I guess.

    I hope I didn't refer to the issue side arm of our armed forces as a piece of junk, intentionally stopping just short of that descriptor. It is the design of the M 9 (and other well acclaimed pistols) that I dislike. That slide mounted, safety/decocker or any decocker safety for that matter adds extra points to train on and is totally unnecessary. The SiG decocker lever isn't so bad but, like all of that type, it's two distinctive trigger pulls require more training. The Beretta, SiG and many of the others are quite well made it's just the design that is a hinderance.

    Your over the top slide rack works quite well taking no more time with training than any other but we must consider the possibility of thumbing the safety lever and add that to the steps to be sure to get back in the fight.

    I think it is the absence of any extraneous levers or buttons or gear shifts that make the Glock so well liked. Functionally and ease of use it is top shelf but it will never win a beauty pagent and it ain't blue steel and walnut.
    Is there nothing so sacred on this earth that you aren't willing to kill or die for?



  12. #12

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    Wasn't necessarily refering to your post regarding my "junk" comment...have heard others call it that though. I like Sigs OK and prefer the decocker lever over the slide mounted safety, but with the exception of the larger models (226, 220) they just don't fit my hand very well. We trained some folks on the M11 (228) and I have also handled the 239, 245, etc. but they just don't "trip my trigger." I agree the simplicity of the Glock slide makes it simple...I also really like the Kahr (steel framed only) pistols and always keep a K40 close by. Boils down to personal preferences mostly...ain't we lucky to have so many choices!

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    Quote Originally Posted by gunblade View Post
    Wasn't necessarily refering to your post regarding my "junk" comment...have heard others call it that though. I like Sigs OK and prefer the decocker lever over the slide mounted safety, but with the exception of the larger models (226, 220) they just don't fit my hand very well. We trained some folks on the M11 (228) and I have also handled the 239, 245, etc. but they just don't "trip my trigger." I agree the simplicity of the Glock slide makes it simple...I also really like the Kahr (steel framed only) pistols and always keep a K40 close by. Boils down to personal preferences mostly...ain't we lucky to have so many choices!
    I am also a huge fan of the Kahr steel guns, especially the T-9 and T-40. I sold my T-9 pocket pistol for a T-40 and that deal fell through so I'm waiting for the T-40. They are well made and something to be proud of, have the highest reliability and a better trigger (for me).
    Yeah the slide mounted Rugers, S&W, Beretta, etc I don't much care for.
    Is there nothing so sacred on this earth that you aren't willing to kill or die for?



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    Member stevelyn's Avatar
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    How's the M&P in the reliability department? I'll say it's the most ergonomic handgun I've ever held. I think it just needs some years to prove itself. It's gonna be pretty tough to dethrone the Glock!

    I really don't know how reliable the M&P is in the real world. Only time will tell as it hasn't been around long enough to prove itself yet.

    Truth be known, I'm just now warming up to it myself because S&W recently changed their policy and are offering it to the public without that ****able lock and magazine disconnect. I'd still like to see them get rid of the tailfin tang and cut it flush like they do on the compact and sub-compacts.

    My chief's daughter bought one a few months ago and used it in a couple of Steve McDaniel's handgun classes at Alaska Tactical. She also brought it with her when she came down here on a visit and we put it through an informal range session with several different shooters. It hasn't gagged once so far with her or any of the rest of us.

    The absolute best features are the ambidextrous controls and the interchangeable grips. You can pretty much make it fit anyone.
    The other thing is S&W tried to keep things as simple as possible by adding few bells and whistles and keeping them flush with the slide and frame.

    I'm still an unrepentant Glocker, but I think with a little minor tweeking, S&W is probably onto something for a change.
    Now what ?

  15. #15

    Default Back to the Berretta

    As a MP I bought a Berretta 92FS Iox as a graduation present to myself after compleating AIT. Having a copy of my duty pistol had helped me greatly with be able to train at home and at the range. I know that it is not the greatest pistol in the world but it is what I have to carry. I have been hearing rumors that the Military is thinking of going back to the 45. This would be a great thing. I have experienced multiple failures of the 9mm. I know that it is due to fact that we as Military personel are not autherized to use expanding bullets. I look at the 45 as a pre-expanded bullet. Having your M4 go down due to a broken extractor is scary enough when clearing a building. Having to go to your side arm and having a failure to stop a AK toting fanatic after two shot to the chest a one in the head is down right discuraging. Five total rounds were required to put an end to this peticular anti-American. Needless to say I replaced all the parts on my M4 that I could with high quality replacement parts so as to never have to repeat that horrable experience again. If give the choise I would take a 45 over a 9mm any day of the week.
    Train today to succeed tomarrow

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    Wow Bravowhiskey, glad you are still with us & thanks for your service!!!
    I don't know if you are still over "there", but keep up the good work & come home in one piece.
    For a home/personal defense caliber I'm currently enjoying my 10mm, but in ball ammo the 45 is hard to beat.
    Vance in AK.

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    "But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added to you."

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    Default What about the Taurus?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vance in AK View Post
    What throne is the Glock on???
    Long live the 1911 & the EAA Witness! (Oh, & the HP)
    Quote Originally Posted by Murphy View Post
    ...truncated for brevity...
    Yeah the slide mounted Rugers, S&W, Beretta, etc I don't much care for.
    So, where does the Taurus PT-99 and 92 fall in this pantheon? It is almost a clone of the Beretta, but it has the manual safety where God and John Browning intended, on the frame, where it belongs.

    And there is no "decocker" (which sounds to me like an unwelcome medical procedure). You can carry this pistol cocked and locked OR lower the hammer manually, your choice.

    Also, if you have a misfire, you CAN get a second strike on the dud primer, (the second strike sometimes DOES work) simply by pulling the trigger again (no "half-cocked" status for this pistol).

    OK, the ranting is mostly tongue-in-cheek, but I do much prefer the Taurus design to the Beretta for the reasons cited above. Does no one else feel likewise?

    Lost Sheep

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    Member JOAT's Avatar
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    Default Catching up on my reading...

    Quote Originally Posted by akav8r View Post
    ... Beretta 92. I'm not familiar with the procedure for malfunction drills with this firearm. I'm sure you military guys could educate me. JOAT, do you have any suggestions?...
    Been out enjoying the outdoors the last couple weeks, so my time on the forums has been little bites here and there. In reponse to your question, I have zero Beretta time, so I couldn't start to provide any specifics to that gun. If you're available later this month, maybe we can go burn some powder at the Snowshoe and if the Beretta (and owner) were there, we could see what we can work out in real time.
    Winter is Coming...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lost Sheep View Post
    So, where does the Taurus PT-99 and 92 fall in this pantheon? It is almost a clone of the Beretta, but it has the manual safety where God and John Browning intended, on the frame, where it belongs.

    And there is no "decocker" (which sounds to me like an unwelcome medical procedure). You can carry this pistol cocked and locked OR lower the hammer manually, your choice.

    Also, if you have a misfire, you CAN get a second strike on the dud primer, (the second strike sometimes DOES work) simply by pulling the trigger again (no "half-cocked" status for this pistol).

    OK, the ranting is mostly tongue-in-cheek, but I do much prefer the Taurus design to the Beretta for the reasons cited above. Does no one else feel likewise?

    Lost Sheep
    By design the PT-99 seems to be a significant step in the right direction. Taurus isn't considered gilt edge in fit and finish but when you get agood one they are better performers in a broad range of hands than the Beretta.

    Understanding the different actions and how to accomplish the same tasks, clear stoppages, load reload, make ready, and just a simple presentation....some models just don't fit all tracks.

    The 1911 and the P-35 Browning set the basics for all else to follow. By follow I mean to add to or take from their basic lockwork. I really like the idea of a DAO (sort of a misnomer as it is single) but I also like a crisp 3# trigger. The less levers or buttons you have to push to make it go bang the easier it is to train to deliver a good shot quickly. The 1911 and I suppose even the Beretta M9, can be learned but specific technique is needed and sufficient practice is required. The CZ lock seems to be an extension of the Browning and just adds the double action so if one can handle the Browning the CZ comes easy. But if a skilled gunner with the Browning/1911 lockwork meets the M9 it will take some work and likely some expletives to get into the fight.

    Probaly the most unique lockwork of any pistol is the H&K P-7. A squeeze cocker, but not just squeeze, squeeze and hold.....sounds like a high maintenance woman.
    Is there nothing so sacred on this earth that you aren't willing to kill or die for?



  20. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by Murphy View Post
    It's right at the top of the tactical tupperware list.

    The Glock is like the dumpy, geeky, goofy guy in school that gets to take the best looking girl in school to the prom. He don't look like much, but he's got something going.
    You mean the Glock is well hung even though butt ugly?

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