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Thread: KAFC against KRSA

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    Default KAFC against KRSA

    Does anyone know of the Kenai Area Fishermens Coalition is planning on running another full page as in the newspaper against KRSA and the Classic?

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    Change on the Kenai River can't be dammed up
    CRAIG MEDRED
    OUTDOORS
    Published: July 15th, 2007 08:14 AM
    Last Modified: July 15th, 2007 05:20 AM
    http://www.adn.com/outdoors/craig_me...ry/163762.html

    {copyrighted material removed by webmaster}
    ————————————————————————————

    River Classic makes for fishy politics
    ALAN BORAAS
    COMMENT
    Published: July 7, 2007, Anchorage Daily News
    http://dwb.adn.com/opinion/comment/b...-9028578c.html

    {copyrighted material removed by webmaster}
    Last edited by Webmaster; 07-04-2008 at 21:51.

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    Default nice try Yukon

    Quote Originally Posted by yukon View Post
    Does anyone know of the Kenai Area Fishermens Coalition is planning on running another full page as in the newspaper against KRSA and the Classic?

    What KAFC does or does not do with an ad is not gong to be answered. Nice try Yukon to get a heads up for Uncle Ted and Bob but no dice. You will just have to wait like everyone else.

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    That is what I expected from your organization. Very Classy, I can't wait to see it. Continue to divide the users, great job! So much for working together for a better river and bringing the community and organizations together. Wasn't there something about being open and transparent? Can't find the money to get up a website but it looks like there will be some money for a hate ad. Time will tell, heck, maybe KAFC will do the right things this year.

    BTW, if anyone out there thinks there is a crowding problem on the Kenai they obviously haven't been on it in the last month!

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    Quote Originally Posted by yukon
    Does anyone know of the Kenai Area Fishermens Coalition is planning on running another full page as in the newspaper against KRSA and the Classic?
    I hope so.

    The majority of the local fishermen are against the shenanegans, politics, and players associated with the Classic. And for good reason. KAFC represents the voice of those local fishermen. Kudos to KAFC for the public awareness last year.

    Yukon, your attempt to stir trouble with this post, probe for information that you're unwilling to call and ask for yourself, and your attack on KAFC is pathetic. The Classic does nothing to "bring community and organizations together". It does nothing for us local fishermen. All the Classic does is generate the political games, money, and power that have ruined the River's reputation and divided user groups. To deny what has gone on with the Classic is ridiculous.

    BTW, you're wrong about much (again). KAFC does have a web site. It's kind of rough, but I believe it was created by volunteers. I'm sure you'll find a way to attack it though. And last year's add wasn't a "hate" add (those are your "hateful" words). The add was informative, and hit the nail on the head (exactly why I respect KAFC). You're just mad because it exposed the truth about what the Classic really represents. After all, as a guide, you're in the business.

    As for crowding...June did seem less crowded. Mediocre fishing, poor weather, poor water conditions, high fuel and travel prices, less use by locals who are fed up with the whole Kenai River thing, and a growing tarnished reputation of the River itself. Less crowding this June is a good thing, although it is not a result of management doing anything special. And unfortunately all studies, reports, polls, and surveys indicate the River is over-crowded, especially by guides.

    Again, kudos KAFC.

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    I would expect nothing less from you Grampy. Please show me where I "attacked" KAFC?:

    Kinda funny, I just got off the phone with a friend who was fishing the river and was surprised how empty it was.
    Heck Grampy, I ran from Mud Island to the Pillars on Friday afternoon around 3:30 and counted a total of 2 boats, one at the top of mud island and one at eagle rock. Yep, there are too many guides. Saturday, I fished a different section of river, caught a couple fish and saw a total of 2 boats between 6 am and noon. Yep, it sure is crowed with guides out there.

    Has KAFC done anything for the community? for habitat? for charity? besides complain?

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    Default Yukon off base again.

    Quote Originally Posted by yukon View Post
    I would expect nothing less from you Grampy. Please show me where I "attacked" KAFC?:

    Has KAFC done anything for the community? for habitat? for charity? besides complain?
    Gee Yukon - do you not read your own words. Here they are for your information -

    That is what I expected from your organization. Very Classy, I can't wait to see it. Continue to divide the users, great job! So much for working together for a better river and bringing the community and organizations together. Wasn't there something about being open and transparent? Can't find the money to get up a website but it looks like there will be some money for a hate ad. Time will tell, heck, maybe KAFC will do the right things this year.

    I did not answer your question Yukon and let you jumped off the bridge and made the above statement. They you talk about dividing people and causing hate? What a hypocritical statement from you.

    Also, KAFC has done a number of things for this community. First, it exposed and continues to expose where political favoritism has come into fishery management. It stopped the BOF members from taking gifts from KRSA, like the classic. It made the system better as a result. You may be upset your influence pedaling was stopped but the average citizen is tired of the political payoffs. Read the polls on how people feel about Don Young, Ted Stevens, and L. Green - at least Green knew when to jump ship.

    KAFC also was active in stopping the destruction of cultural sites at the college and Slikok Creek Park by ADF&G and KRSA. I guess that is not for the good of the community - gee everyone seems to agree with our position since this was an illegal act.

    KAFC has taken strong positions on hydrocarbons in the river while your guide association and KRSA fought for increased hydrocarbons with the 50 hp increase.

    KAFC was at the Kenai River Festival for the whole two days handing out information on boating safety and having a drawing for a life vest. In contrast, KRSA showed up for one hour, passed out a few rods and reels, and left the area. They are the only ones allowed to do this - I guess they are above the rules for everyone else.

    I could go on but your understanding of KAFC is so simplistic that it is funny. Reread your post and then ask yourself why you hate KAFC? Maybe it will reveal more about yourself than KAFC.

    The web site is up and grampfishes is correct. It is done by volunteers who have full time jobs. We do not operate on slush money from political groups who want Ted's favors. How much money does KSRA receive from memberships vs those donations from defense contractors?

    Yukon, you do yourself a disservice with these types of posts. You were fishing to see if Ted was going to be shown up for what he is at the classic - a draw of big money for political favors. I refuse to play that game with you and then you jumped to a conclusion without any fact.

    Just for the record, the volunteer for the KRSA was brought before the grand jury because he/she kept records of all the gifts Ted received from the classic. He/She kept these records and I believe that they will eventually show Ted received more than he reported. We know that already because of the guns but I am wondering what else is out there...

    Also, where in this discussion is June the month of contention about crowding. It has always been July.

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    Yukon, you started this post asking if KAFC would be running an add about the Classic. But really it was just another one of your trolls, clearly intented to bash KAFC, and aggitate and antagonize more controversy. Now you're diverting and digressing things to how crowded the River is, and trying to flip the short-comings of the Classic onto what good KAFC has done. Again, that is pathetic yukon. Surely you have something more constructive to do with your time than rake muck.


    Quote Originally Posted by yukon
    Please show me where I "attacked" KAFC?:
    Here, where you imply KAFC has no class: "That is what I expected from your organization. Very Classy" - yukon

    Here, where you claim KAFC divides users: "Continue to divide the users, great job!" - yukon

    Here, where you attacked KAFC by accusing them of not working for a better river and bringing the community and organizations together: "So much for working together for a better river and bringing the community and organizations together." - yukon

    Here, where you attack their credibility and mission: "Wasn't there something about being open and transparent?" - yukon

    Here, where you attack their financial status (without even knowing they do have a web site): "Can't find the money to get up a website" - yukon

    Here, where you attack them as putting out "hate" adds: "but it looks like there will be some money for a hate ad." - yukon

    Here, where you imply they did not do the right thing last year: "maybe KAFC will do the right things this year." - yukon

    Yukon, clearly you had more than your original question in mind.


    Quote Originally Posted by yukon
    Has KAFC done anything for the community?
    If they hadn't you wouldn't be asking your original question about the Classic. So start with awareness. Clearly, KAFC has given the community an avenue for private fishermen to belong and speak out. Sorry you don't like it. But you exemplify why we need KAFC.

    For example, KAFC made the community, and all Alaskans, aware of the ethical conflicts involved between state officials/board of fish members and the Kenai River Classic. KAFC requested ethical determination from the Attorney General, who identified the conflicts and instructed board members not to attend the Classic during times when sponsors, like KRSA (Bob Penney), had proposals before the board. KAFC also indentifed how money generated by the Classic was used for lobbying regulation and management that negatively effected other Kenai River users. KAFC also questioned how PCSR funds were allocated through KRSA and other self-serving projects, prevailing on how those funds are now issued. KAFC also represents locals and private fishermen on several boards and committees now. Through their awareness, KAFC has helped level the playing field for private anglers during the management decision and funding process. Fairness, so to speak. Not bad for a group one year old. Still a long way to go.


    Quote Originally Posted by yukon
    for habitat?
    KAFC was instrumental in addressing the hydrocarbon issues on the Kenai, supporting the impairment classification yet negotiating the window for 2-strokes. They have also pursued habitat issues with the Kenai Dunes, Kasilof boat launch, road standards for salmon streams, etc., not to mention the countless technical issues involving and relating to salmon biology and fisheries issues. To imply KAFC is not habitat-minded is completely ignorant. DNR and other habitat-oriented groups know KAFC well.

    Quote Originally Posted by yukon
    for charity?
    Providing "charity" is not one of KAFC's goals. Nor does KAFC use charity as a political stunt of good deeds to improve their image, like other organizations do. KAFC's mission statement and bylaws can be found at their web site. KAFC's primary goal is to provide a voice for private fishermen, advocate for science based management, sustained resource stability, and allocations between user groups that benefit all Alaskans.

    Quote Originally Posted by yukon
    besides complain?
    You're the only one I see complaining (about KAFC) here, yukon. Fishing must be slow.

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    Grampy, if that is your definition of attacking, I can't wait to see the ad!

    I hope KRSA takes the high road again and doesn't respond.

    Also, how many river miles has KAFC protected?

    BTW,
    Here is a link for you to see some of the projects KRSA has been involved with:

    http://www.kenairiversportfishing.co...D=19&CAT_ID=29

    I will put that out there, they can defend themselves. As least they DO something instead of only talk about what should be done.

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    Yukon, your comments speak for themselves, and they were clearly an attack on KAFC. Feel free to clarify...

    "That is what I expected from your organization. Very Classy, I can't wait to see it. Continue to divide the users, great job! So much for working together for a better river and bringing the community and organizations together. Wasn't there something about being open and transparent? Can't find the money to get up a website but it looks like there will be some money for a hate ad. Time will tell, heck, maybe KAFC will do the right things this year." - yukon

    The "high road" for KRSA would be seperating themselves from Ted Stevens, Bob Penney, the Classic, and all the dirty politics, money, and power that go along with it.

    Yukon, if you would like to agrue what KAFC exposed about Ted Stevens, Bob Penney, KRSA, and the Classic, please feel free. I'll pass it on to the Attorney General and he and I can laugh together. If you think the Classic is about "protecting river miles", you really need to get your glove and get in the game.

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    Quote Originally Posted by yukon
    BTW,
    Here is a link for you to see some of the projects KRSA has been involved with:

    http://www.kenairiversportfishing.co...D=19&CAT_ID=29

    I will put that out there, they can defend themselves. As least they DO something instead of only talk about what should be done.
    If KRSA has done so much for the River over the decades via funding from Ted, Bob and the Classic, then explain why the River is in such dismay, with a declining reputation. It all looks nice on their fancy web site, which is KRSA's intention, but it's not adding up, yukon.

    I'll tell you why...because they have done more harm than good. Their projects are mere band-aids and good deeds that act to cover up the real impacts they've created and continue to promote. For example they have pushed for larger engines that produce more hydrocarbons at a time when the River is pollution impared. They have pushed for large, heavy, oversized boats that are overloaded at a time when bank erosion continues to accellerate. They push for more hp when safety, speed, and crowding are issues of concern. They fight against attempts to limit guide numbers. They promote develpment and exploitation to no end, all for the "economic engine run hard". Then they develop all these projects to repair the damage they've already done, all under the auspice of doing good.

    Yukon, KRSA, and its philosophy of exploitation to no end, is one of the worst things that ever happened to the Kenai River. And exactly why it is not supported by local, private anglers.

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    Smile not so sure on the hydrocarbons

    First off, I have no issues with kafc nor do I have any affiliation with them. I do not support krsa because I have felt that they were not really representing the average sport fisherman. That being said, I have noticed that I burn a few less gallons of gas each day with the 50 horse motor. I am fairly certain that that is an improvement in relationship to hydrocarbons. I can only speak for myself. I am not sure what other boats burn a day. I also have been amazed at how few boats are on the water. When I end my day and run upstream to the dock most days i only see a few boats fishing from the pillars all the way to sunken island. Regarding the Classic, I sure hope I don't see the cigar and vodka boat turning the river into an adult themed disneyland this year. OK thats my 2 cents for the day. By the way, now that the water is clear and the slot restriction is over i predict a few more boats on the water. Good Luck Fishing!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by gotfish
    I have noticed that I burn a few less gallons of gas each day with the 50 horse motor.
    A 50 hp 4-stroke will burn more fuel and produce more hydrocarbons than when detuned to 35 hp. A 50 hp 4-stroke will also burn more fuel and produce more hydrocarbons than a 40 hp 4-stroke detuned to 35 hp (smaller, lighter, more fuel-efficient engine). The OASIS study showed that, along with the increased hydrocarbon effects that increasing horsepower has. The way to address pollution is with smaller, lighter, more efficient outboards and boats, not KRSA's "bigger is better" philosophy. The way it is now, Billy Bob can leave his 16' Jon with the 35 at home and launch his 21' Hewescraft with the 50.

    From what I've seen, fishing participation is down all over the state. The cost of travel and recreation has become too expensive for many. Plus, most runs throughout the State are weak so far. Water conditions on the Kenai were poor, and the reputation of the mighty Kenai and its world famous King Salmon aren't exactly the bling anymore. Maybe the pendulum of Kenai River exploitation is starting to swing.

    I anticipate a poor political turnout and reduced sponorship with the Classic this year, for obvious reasons. I don't think many political faces and sponsors want to be associated with it anymore.

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    I have noticed that I am using two to three less gallons a day now compared to a similar trip (people x weight x hours) than I did when my motor was detuned to a 35.

    If the crowding conflict is only in July on the Kenai River than why are there restrcitions in place on the guided angler in every month and not just in place for the month of July?

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    Quote Originally Posted by iceblue View Post
    I have noticed that I am using two to three less gallons a day now compared to a similar trip (people x weight x hours) than I did when my motor was detuned to a 35.

    If the crowding conflict is only in July on the Kenai River than why are there restrcitions in place on the guided angler in every month and not just in place for the month of July?
    I think you know the answer to this iceblue - there are other reasons for restrictions - allocation between guided and non-guided anglers being a major one. In fact, the restrictions are all for that reason. No Board of Fish proposal has been passed to restrict guides for crowding reasons. That would be illegal under the court order.

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    Quote Originally Posted by iceblue
    I have noticed that I am using two to three less gallons a day now compared to a similar trip (people x weight x hours) than I did when my motor was detuned to a 35.
    I don't want to hijack the original topic of the Classic, but this comment seems odd to me and the opposite of what I'm seeing.

    Increased horsepower is proportional to increased fuel usage is proportional to increased hydrocarbon emission. Particularly where an increase in horsepower and RPM on the same engine occurrs.

    Virtually every engineeering performance bulletin Yamaha publishes for the 50 hp, on any variety of boats from houseboats to speed boats to river boats, shows that when the 50 hp is run at higher RPM, or full throttle, it burns more fuel and gets worse MPG. It is much more economical and gets better MPG when run at lower cruising RPM, like the detuned 35/50 hp throttle range. Backtrolling RPM (where most of your time is spent) would not matter, since that RPM would be the same with either a detuned 35/50 or the non-detuned 50 - the detune is simply a throttle limiting device for higher RPM.

    So I would be interested to know more details of your claim....What type of boat, how you measured the weight of your load before/after, how many miles you're running, how much time is spent backtrolling vs. running WOT, how much fuel you used before/after, prop changes, water conditions, etc. Maybe we can defy the laws of physics and energy, re-write the OASIS report, and tell Yamaha that all their engineering performance bulletins are wrong.

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    Default KAFC website url? And Yukon...

    Yukon, the skeets are very bad here lately and sometimes I come inside and log onto the net and am in a bad/frustrated mood. I'll chalk this thread up to something like that on your part.

    In the past I've agreed that guides often get unfair treatment here...and I've come to respect you...but your further comments on this really cause me to question what you stand for and are all about. I took a lot of flak when I got involved in an org and criticized what was going on with some other orgs. Overall, I think change was needed...some differing viewpoints out there that represented what wasn't the status-quo of Alaska political machinations inre fish and wildlife management. In that light I think KAFC is a welcome alternative viewpoint on many issues revolving around conservation of habitat and sustainability of the rivers and fisheries stocks.

    No doubt KRSA has done some good things. They've been around longer, and they had the political connections to funnel millions their way. Your argument is one in which you condemn a new group who not only doesn't have those connections, but is pointing out the inherent problems that can arise if they did. This, in case you don't really recognize it, takes courage of a different sort, and involves a whole different way of standing for what one stands on. I can relate to that cuz I have been a part of it on the statewide level.

    Conservation and protection of habitat, sustainability...those are keys to any of us who really care about the rivers and fish. You don't agree with KAFC's criticism of KRSA and the Classic; I can respect and understand that. But I'd hope you recognize they stand for much more than that. Some of what they stand for I'd think you'd be on board with 100%.

    Nerka, can you please give the url of the new KAFC website? Thanks.

    Best to all,

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    Here you go Mark:

    http://www.kenaifisherman.org

    It's rough and in its early stages, but the basics are there including their mission statement, by-laws, membership application, and some accomplishments. Keep in mind it's all volunteer and only about a year old. I think they even have a cool sticker for your boat once you join.

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    I appreciate your comments Bushrat. I support KRSA, and KRPGA, I also support the idea of KAFC but disagree with many of their positions and their distain for KRSA. I was thinking KAFC was a pretty good idea until they came out with the proposal before the BOF to ban guides from fishing on Sundays. That drew the line in the sand for me, they do not support the guided angler. That is fine, they have their base and that is what they want. Many of the KAFC proposals were to restrict the guides and therefore the guided angler. THe bottom line is the don't really like us, I can deal with that.
    KAFC wants to be different than the other groups, they claim to be independent and a scientific body, again, that is fine, but they also dive into allocative issues which are not scientific.
    I get accused all the time on here of playing the "poor guide card" or the such, well, when you are constantly being threatened with restrictions you become defensive, guides seem to lose each go around at the BOF, while no restrictions are put on the non-guided angler (not that I am implying there should be). They restrictions are put on guides in the name of equity and trying to keep the catch equal between the guided and non-guided angler, what that tells me is, "I can't fish because there are guides out there, and I can't catch as many fish as them so we need to restrict them so I can catch more fish" or "poor me, I can't fish if there are guides on the river" at least that is it in a nut shell.

    One of the reasons for the post was to show KAFC unwillingness to attempt to make friends in the community, they don't want anything to do with others, heck some people on this board blame KRSA and KRPGA for virtually every they precieve is wrong with the Kenai. There is a lot of good on the river, maybe that is why people like to fish it, maybe if was really that bad then the river wouldn't be "crowded". Maybe those who think the river is crowded should fish other times than the middle of July, or they should fish other sections of the river, or other times of the day. Choices, pretty simple.
    Try to equity in June, heck, maybe a average Joe should go fishing in June, they are not out there, IMO they don't like the slot and the slow fishing we saw, can't say I blame them but don't cry when the guided angler catches more fish, we are out there. How can I say that, well, after being out there today (the slot came off today) I saw more non-guide boats this morning than I have seen in the last 2 weeks combined. That shows me the average Joe does not like the slot.

    As far as fuel comsumption goes, I am burning less as well, some of which is probably because I have a new fuel injected four stroke which are very efficient. I am running the same RPM's as when I ran a 35hp (prop selection). Maybe it is because I am getting on step faster and not bogged down trying to get on step for a longer period of time. It isn't a scientific study, just some observations.

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    yukon, you are certainly welcome to your opinion as a guide, no matter how biased your perception of KAFC is, or how misinformed you are.

    Obviously KAFC does not represent the Kenai River guide industry, or the power of big money and political influence of the organizations you support and belong. That is the whole point. KAFC represents Joe Fisherman, plain and simple. Grassroots in trying to do what is right for the River, it's habitat and resource, so future generations have something left to enjoy in the wake of a heavily commercially influenced sport fishery.

    Unfortunately for you, Joe Fisherman isn't real happy about what your KRSA and KRPGA have done to the River. Joe isn't real happy about the shenanigans that they've pulled over the years, and continue to pull. Joe isn't real happy with the leaders and big finacial supporters of your groups, like Bob Penney who just keeps squeezing the local private fisherman and the boundries of what the River can take, just to further expand his "economic engine run hard". Joe isn't real happy with the corruption and tactics your groups operate under. Anything good those groups do is over-shadowed by bad.

    And for the record, no, Joe does not want guides fishing on Sundays. Mainly because guides have abused that by taking paying clients out as "friends" on Sunday. You apparently think that's ok. Well, Joe doesn't. He works all week and Sunday is his only day to take his family on the River without the commercialization, exploitation, and stressful competition of all the guides. Joe does not want guides fishing "friends" on his Sunday. Guides are already on the River exploiting the resource all week. They can take their "friends" then. It's bad enough guides have taken several designated no-guide Sundays away from Joe under the auspice of "charity".

    Yukon, you do play the "poor guide card" here constantly. We all know it. For some odd reason you continue to think guides should be treated and regulated the same as non-guides. Well, Joe doesn't agree. Guides, as a large, organized group, use up the resource, habitat, facilities, environment, etc. for $profit$. Joe does not. Joe does not believe that an unlimited commercial guide industry should have the same restrictions as Joe. No other commercial industry does.

    You might think KAFC wants to be different, but that's because you live in a world of 400 commercial guides supported by big money and big politics. When in fact, KAFC simply represents Joe Fisherman. Guys like me and my neighbors who finally have an avenue to voice oursleves, and make the playing field level. After all, we're long tired of being pushed off the River and left out of decisions because of the influence and power your groups have had. KAFC is a good start. About time.

    Your attempt to bad-mouth KAFC as unfriendly and hard to get along with does nothing but make you look silly. It's a lame attempt at trying to discredit them. But it shows what you're really made of. KAFC is "friends" with many, and their organization has become an integral part of our community. Their membership is almost 200 strong in just one year. And they have hardly advertised themselves. Yet they are well known locally and throughout the State. KAFC continues to support and represent Joe at meetings regarding fisheries, habitat, access, and more. They continue to gain respect and are thoroughly acknowledged by Federal, State, Borough, and municipal governments, particularly groups like the BOF. KAFC has even worked well with your KRSA and KRPGA on certain issues.

    Yukon, clearly it is not KAFC who does not like you. It is you who does not like KAFC. That was obvious by your original post and the one you made after. You trolled for this discussion and now you have it. I doubt you've ever sat down and talkled with Dwight and the leaders of KAFC. Because if you did, you wouldn't be so biased and misinformed. But then again, you're not Joe Fisherman. You're a guide who exploits the River commercially to make $money$. I think KAFC intimidates you and what the groups you belong to stand for. Kudos KAFC.

    BTW, it's my understanding KRSA's Classic had a poor turnout this year. Seems like it's more than just Joe who's fed up the the Kenai River shenanigans....

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