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Thread: Securing a Scope?

  1. #1
    Member tboehm's Avatar
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    Default Securing a Scope?

    What do you use? You may have notice my tread about the problems with my scope and my 375 H&H. I was using a Lead sled II and had the scope slide on me when I had checked it to make sure that things were tight. My gun smith thinks that it was due to the sled taking away a bunch of the recoil. I talked with the President/Owner of Talley rings and he feels the same thing. There was one forum member that stated he didn't think that it could be the sled, stating that if you put a gun in a vice and shot it there would be any recoil and the scope couldn't go anywhere. What are your thoughts? I have had several recommendations and trying to figure out what I want to do. The gunsmith recommended putting some electrical tape on the rings and remount. The owner of Talley recommended using a small amount of silicone on my finger and rubbing it on the rings, and finally one member here recommended using some rosin. What are some of your experiences? Pros and cons of each? What have you heard? I have ordered scope alignments tool form Kokopelli and a lapping tool as well. Any thoughts on this would be greatly appreciated. My brown bear hunt is getting way to close to still be screwing around with this. HELP!!!

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    Default Change rings and...

    be done with it. WARNE = tough.

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    I've had real good luck with Warne and Talley rings on various calibers and i've never had to do the things your talking about. You might want to consider the Leupold PRW/QRW rings. They're a Weaver style that clamp really tight. They're heavy, but so is the Warnes. That's probably not a concern on a 375 though.

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    My choice of mounts are now the lightweight Talleys. Nice package as they include both the base and the rings in one piece.
    Following that I like the plain jane Weaver mounts and bases. Lightweight, inexpensive and they work. Have used them on rifles up to 458 Lott.
    Tennessee

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    Member shphtr's Avatar
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    I have the Talley - several types and S&K. Both are good but prefer the S&K: lighter, at least as strong, better looking to me but more expensive.

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    Moderator Paul H's Avatar
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    What type of scope are you using? If you're using a large heavy scope, it's much tougher to keep it in position than a more moderate scope. If you have a monster scope up there you might find switching a leupold 6x or a 2.5-8 does wonders. But, if you really want to lock the scope down, get one of the tactical mounts and have your action drilled out for #8 screws. It'll add some weight, but you'll never have to worry about the scope moving, the keep them locked down solid on 50 bmg's.


    And no offense meant, but if you find the 375's recoil sufficiently objectionable that you have to use a lead sled vs. shooting it off the bags, it just might be too much gun for you to hunt with. An -06 or something similar that you've used for years and shoot like it's an extension of your body is 10 times the bear gun than a boomer that you're not comfortable shooting.

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    Another good idea is to use rubber cement in the rings when you are securing the scope. It peels off easily if you need to remove it in the future. I found it works much better than rosin.
    Tennessee

  8. #8

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    First get rid of the lead sled. They are bad news for your gun and optics. Its like running your car into a brick wall.

    As far as keeping your scope from moving use the rosin you mentioned (midwayusa if it isn't out of stock) or Permatex® Indian Head® Gasket Shellac which can be found at any auto-parts store.

    Good luck and shoot straight.

  9. #9
    Member tboehm's Avatar
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    Default Still waiting on parts

    Paul - I put a Zeiss Victory on it. Also, its not the recoil or being afraid of the gun, I also own a 338. The purpose of the lead sled was for zeroing in of the scope and also to see what each of my rifles are capable of in the way of accuracy and also in preperation of getting back into reloading and testing loads. That way any shooting done after, i would know that it was me and not the gun.

    It would help and be appreciated if anyone with experiece reguarding the rosin, tape, or silicone would chime in. I have heard of these things but never used anything on my scopes.

    Snowolfe - what kind and brand name of rubber cement are you talking about? ( one more option to throw in the mix)

    I have ordered the scope alignment kit from Kokopelli and waiting for that to arrive to start over

  10. #10

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    The rosin comes in powder form. Just sprinkle a little on the rings, top and bottom and then cinch them down. The stuff is tacky, same stuff ball players use. A small pinch of this stuff and your scope won't move, promise.
    We 50 shooters love it and if our scopes don't move your little 375 wont stand a chance of moving.

  11. #11

    Smile Me thimks...

    I think the sled could do that. I have heard of them splitting a stock. I think the lighter the scope the less likely it is to move under recoil if it is secured in the rings. The matte finish on Leupold scopes provides a good griping surface for rings. Not all rings are created equal. Make sure the scope rings are clamping on the scope and not against each other before they are tight. Hope that made sense.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Snowwolfe View Post
    Another good idea is to use rubber cement in the rings when you are securing the scope. It peels off easily if you need to remove it in the future. I found it works much better than rosin.
    +1.

    You can get it in the school supplies of your local Chinese Embassy. (Wal Mart)

  13. #13
    Member algonquin's Avatar
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    Default Had the same problem W/my 375H&H

    I had the same problem with my375 H&H this spring W/O using the lead sled. I had Warne rings and a Burris FullfieldII 3x9x40. The scope move in the rings and the rings kept getting lose. About every 6 shots I found that the screws in the rings had backed out. I finally used red loc-tite. I know its the wrong one(Blue is recond.) but simply an act of desperation! I finally switched to a set of Leupold standard rings and used blue Loc-Tite. That stopped the scope movement. Then I found that the scope was no good!!!! Burris Fullfield II's are made in the Philippines now sooo... be carefully if you want to put one on your gun. Note: the warne rings were QD's which may not have been the best choice either. Live and learn. The bright side is after firing 80+ rounds with the rifle I felt very comfortable with it.

  14. #14

    Default Talley LW

    I just finished mounting a new VX III 2.5-8 in Talley Light weight one piece rings.
    Figured I needed to lap them and found that the inside of the ring would not contact evenly. Not being very experienced in such matters I thought I might have continue to lap until the lap wear was even across the whole inside of the ring. Is this true?

    The fellow helping who did have a bit more experience continued the lapping only a little bit more. There is lapping wear evident over most of the ring now and we then finished mounting the scope.

    I thought it was rather strange that the inital wear from lapping was very evident only on the outside of the rings. Anyone else lap Talley LW rings see this?

    Rich

  15. #15
    Member tboehm's Avatar
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    Default Lapping

    I had just ordered the Kopopelli lapping tool and had lapped the rings only to find out that the screw holes on one of the rings were stripped. They have a new set on the way free of charge and I have to start all over. The instuctions state that you don't want to over lap the rings and that only 70% contact is needed. You have to be careful that you don't take off to much metal. Not sure I understand why you wouldn't want 100% but I'm going to try to stay with the recommendations. I still have not decided which bonding agent that I'm going to try on the rings and the scope Plenty of suggestions but I'm just not sure what would be the most reliable.

  16. #16
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    I still don’t buy it being caused by the sled. Here is an analogy, picture yourself sitting on top of a motorcycle or horse, if either moves out moderately fast you have to hold on a bit, if either moves out abruptly you need to be holding on for dear life, if they just jitter around a bit there is almost no force against you. Same is true of the sled and scope relation, the sled absorbs the majority of the energy produced by the barreled action reducing the acceleration and stroke distance of the gun thereby minimizing stress on the scope mounting. Put the barreled action in a vice and there will only be a little jitter against the scope. Allow the gun to just sit on the bags on the bench, reach in with a finger to pull the trigger allowing the gun to freely recoil and you will have maximum inertia against the scope, the gun will go flying only restrained by its own weight.

    On the other hand, the stock attempts to transmit the produced energy and the energy is proportional to the resistance against the stock. If the stock is held firmly in place then it must withstand all the pressure created by the barreled action. If there is no pressure against the stock then the only pressure will be caused by the weight of the stock itself. So it is possible that a stock resisting against a 30 lb lead sled might split if it has an internal flaw. On rare occasions this can even happen with flawed shoulder fired rifles and shotguns.

    Frankly, if a gunsmith suggested using electrical tape, I would never return to them. Electrical tape will offer some random cushioning but offers nothing for accuracy and repeatability. Tape turns into 2 different consistencies when it is warm from the sun versus when it is below freezing. Scopes, rings, dovetail mounts, bases, are all engineered for a clean metal to metal full contact fit, just like all high precision fixtures requiring accuracy and repeatability. I would classify these as press fit, zero diametral tolerance (no gap). If you put something between them then you affect the design moving away from the zero tolerance and are now dealing with extra mating surfaces and extra dissimilar materials. Adding material is fine if you need to fill a diametral clearance. I could possible see the rosin being useful for this if the rings are misaligned causing much less than full contact.

    You are on the right track with the Kokopelli bars. Finish with a hand lapping to achieve at least 60% contact from the lapping bar. It will pressure fit into 100% contact after tightening the ring cap screws. This is all a 375 needs. If it requires more than this then you could have rings or something that are out of round. Don’t lap too much as this will cause out of round.

    Something you could do, I wouldn’t, but you could use one of the Loctites specifically designed for cylindrical objects with a press fit. It is designed to be used in zero tolerance fits. The medium strengths will come apart with a little force, the high strengths will require a little heat from something like a strong blow dryer or heat gun.

    http://www.henkelna.com/cps/rde/xchg/henkel_us/hs.xsl/3533_USE_HTML.htm?countryCode=us&BU=ut&parentredDo tUID=0000000H7Y,productfinder&redDotUID=0000000ME6

    http://www.henkelna.com/cps/rde/xchg/henkel_us/hs.xsl/3533_USE_HTML.htm?countryCode=us&BU=ut&parentredDo tUID=0000000H7Y,productfinder&redDotUID=0000000HWR

    http://www.henkelna.com/cps/rde/xchg/henkel_us/hs.xsl/3533_USE_HTML.htm?countryCode=us&BU=ut&parentredDo tUID=0000000H7Y,productfinder&redDotUID=0000000HWO

    Keep in mind though, anything you add you need to consider the temperature ranges. Any adhesives can have very different characteristics at 90F compared to -20F. I'd be hesitant to go with anything other than direct metal to metal.

  17. #17
    Member Eastwoods's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tboehm View Post
    I had just ordered the Kopopelli lapping tool and had lapped the rings only to find out that the screw holes on one of the rings were stripped. They have a new set on the way free of charge and I have to start all over. The instuctions state that you don't want to over lap the rings and that only 70% contact is needed. You have to be careful that you don't take off to much metal. Not sure I understand why you wouldn't want 100% but I'm going to try to stay with the recommendations. I still have not decided which bonding agent that I'm going to try on the rings and the scope Plenty of suggestions but I'm just not sure what would be the most reliable.
    I'm pretty sure its because if you take that much off (by lapping), by the time you tighten the screws all the way down, the scope may still be loose inside the rings.

    I'm glad you found the problem.

    However, in response to Ed M and the search for the truth about the lead sled, I tried to re-read all this info and couldn't find if you mentioned which way the scope slid......forward or backward? If it was forward then I think it was not due to the sled, but, normal recoil. If it was backward, then I would highly suspect the sled.

  18. #18

    Default

    Heavy kicking rifles slide scopes in the rings more than most will addmit, your gunsmith should know the cure but, appariently doesn't. Powdered rosin apply a light coating to the inside of the rings and that willeliminate all of the scope slippage. Powdered rosin has never failed to hold a slipping scope in place for me and many others.

    Lead Sled or no lead sled doesn't matter the scope will stay in place once you apply the rosin

  19. #19
    Member tboehm's Avatar
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    Default pulling hair

    I just got the new rings and have lapped them and I'm sitting here looking at the rings trying to decide what to put on them if anything. I have the reqular loctite, the Permatex, and the rosin. For additional info the scope slide forward when the first problem started. I had talked with talley and they recommended 25in" lbs of torque so I bought the tool for that as well. I have never had so much trouble with a weapon in my life and its pissing me off now because I'm second guessing everything and that isn't the type of person that I am. I just want things right for a hopefully successful brown bear hunt. Again let me thank everyone for their help and thoughts on the matter. Please continue to comment and I will do the same to share the progress. Maybe this will be of help to some other sportsmen.

    On a side note I have the slight feeling that the second set of rings are better than the first due to the fact that there was less lapping and the alignment seemed a little better than the first. I am sure that everything was tight at all times when the first problem arose so we'll just have to see.

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