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Thread: Mike Vanning - Gateway Guiding

  1. #1

    Default Mike Vanning - Gateway Guiding

    Anyone flown for this guy in the past? I don't think he ownes his own plane, hires out the flying I think.

  2. #2
    Member kioti's Avatar
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    Default vanning?

    yes he hires out...why do you ask??

  3. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by goosepilot View Post
    Anyone flown for this guy in the past? I don't think he ownes his own plane, hires out the flying I think.
    You still trying to figure out how to get around the 135 regs goosepilot or trying to identify the operators who are abusing the system?


  4. #4

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    avalanche, your funny

  5. #5

    Default

    curious, have you have ever been in an avalanche?

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    Member AK-HUNT's Avatar
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    Wink avalanche...

    I usually don't agree with anything I've seen you post but I was thinking the same thing!!
    Scary, huh! My money is on your first guess.
    Goosepilot, you are gonna get you butt in a sling. Do you think you are the first one to think of what you are doin? They just don't post it on the internet!! Have you ever even read the guide regs yet? Put some nice stuff in that cub so when I buy it at the fish and game auctions it'll be ready to go!

  7. #7
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    Default tone

    I just read my post again. I didn't intend it to sound THAT bad.

  8. #8

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    I have to say I really liked this forum at the beginning. A person could find good useful information to formulate his/her own decision. But then I saw more and more people jumping to conclusions because they didn't read or comprehend the original question and started off on a whole different tangent. Several people that just talk(type) to hear themselves make noise. I like the forums that can stick to relevant, pertanant, helpful information, so it doesn't take all day to wade through the B.S. to get an answer to a question from those that really do know and are secure enough to help a person out.

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by goosepilot View Post
    Anyone flown for this guy in the past? I don't think he ownes his own plane, hires out the flying I think.
    goosepilot; I thought you posted somewhere on this site last year that you know Mike Vanning and flew your cub up from the Dakota's last season to fly for Vanning.

    So your question seemed weird; sort of INsecure.

    And you did not respond to kioti; and still have not answered "why" you were asking the question.

    My first post was supposed to be funny so I am glad you got my humor and no I have never been "in" an avalanche but I have been around when a few started.


  10. #10
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    Default Whoops

    I thought you posted previously you were flying for a NR guide friend last year without a 135 cert or even guide license. That stuff leaves a bitter taste in folks mouths who live here, you know. I probably confused you with someone else. My apologies if so. Jumped to conclusions again.
    (there's the whole cliche' of NR guides coming up hunting an area out with their NR asst guides and moving on because they don't live here so they don't care thing that chaps alot of residents rears so info may be hard to get by the way).....for another forum I guess

    I would honestly help ya, but this Vanning is a NR guide too so don't know him. Good luck.

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    Forum Admin Brian M's Avatar
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by AK-HUNT View Post
    I thought you posted previously you were flying for a NR guide friend last year without a 135 cert or even guide license. That stuff leaves a bitter taste in folks mouths who live here, you know. I probably confused you with someone else. My apologies if so. Jumped to conclusions again.
    You didn't confuse him with someone else. Click on his name and then "find all posts by user". The posts concerning the need for a 135 cert are there, but it's not clear who he was intending to fly for.

    He did post this last year, though:

    Quote Originally Posted by goosepilot View Post
    I have had a great experience with Mike Vanning of Gateway Guiding, you might also talk with him. gatewayguiding.com



  12. #12
    Member kioti's Avatar
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    Default question..........?

    still waiting for the questions, I saw Mr. V..out on the peninsula last fall guideing bear hunters....had a fellow flying for him in nice yellow cub.
    Didnt have any gas for the cub at start of season as I remember...even came to our camp to borrow gas. Brought his hunters over to buy wolf tags as well....... do I know him, not really sat next to him at Jacks drinking coffee and he never introduced himself. NR guide? I didnt and dont know that? BUT if I were going to fly for him, I make 100% sure I and he was all on the up &up...and have a contract signed stating as such...
    Because I do know the powers that be were looking into things going on out there and will be looking even closer next time.........

    dont have to read between the lines, just ask me. honest questions get honest answers

    flying for these guides seems like a good way to make $$ and it can be, but if your not up to speed and have all your ducks in a row and backups too, your in big trouble. Never run out of options, down there you need many.
    Last edited by kioti; 06-21-2008 at 09:24. Reason: spelling

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    Member martentrapper's Avatar
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    Default

    I haven't looked at whatever other posts goose has made, but I'm confused. Why is goose accused of trying to dodge 135 requirements? A licensed, registered guide does not need a 135 cert. to fly his clients. The flying is "incidental to the business" so a 135 cert isn't needed. Likewise, a pilot working for a reg. guide does not need a 135 cert either. However, he does need a commercial pilots rating. He may need other requirements from the guides insurance carrier.
    Ther statements made by Kioti apply out where I live as well. Vanning is looked at pretty closely by the "powers that be". To my knowledge, he hasn't been busted.
    I can't help being a lazy, dumb, weekend warrior.......I have a JOB!
    I have less friends now!!

  14. #14

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by martentrapper View Post
    A licensed, registered guide does not need a 135 cert. to fly his clients.
    That's true; provided the flying pilot is the same person who the "client" contracted the hunt with and is also actually guiding.

    Quote Originally Posted by martentrapper View Post
    The flying is "incidental to the business" so a 135 cert isn't needed.
    You do understand that "incidental" is only relevant to the individual flying pilot don't you?

    Incidental flying does not apply to the "business" of selling hunts or fishing trips. If a guide sells a fishing or hunting trip and is not the pilot AND the guide then the flight operation can not be considered "incidental" to the flying pilot.

    The business of selling resources; where the contracting person is not both the pilot AND the guide is the "business" of a booking agent or outfitter.

    Neither a booking agent nor an outfitter can conduct "incidental" flight operations. Both rely on employed or contracted pilots and guides; people paid to either fly or to guide.

    Incidental applies only to the interest of the person flying.

    Quote Originally Posted by martentrapper View Post
    Likewise, a pilot working for a reg. guide does not need a 135 cert either.
    Nope; you are wrong.

    Piloting is an individual authorization; an occupational license issued by the FAA. It is not an authorization to conduct "incidental" flight operations for hire.

    A guide license is not a business license nor can a guide license preempt federal flight regulations.

    Guiding is an authorization; an occupational license issued by the State that authorizes an individual to provide a professional service in the field to another individual in order to take a public resource.

    If a person is paid to fly...regardless of the class of guide license the person has been issued by the State; then it is a commercial flight operation.

    If a person is paid to guide then logically that person MUST be either employed by a registered guide or must be the contracting guide.

    Persons in possession of an ASSISTANT GUIDE LICENSE; are not authorized to sell the resource or sign a client contract and do not fall under the Alaska guide pilot regulation. How can flying be "incidental" to the interest of an ASSISTANT GUIDE? It is not possible.

    And so; in the case of an ASSISTANT GUIDE or in the case of an otherwise "employed" registered guide, neither sold the resource. So; flying is not "incidental" to the interest of an "employed" registered guide. It is not possible.


  15. #15
    Member AK-HUNT's Avatar
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    Default Not exactly...

    I challenge each of you to read the regulations/statutes that cover guides. Some of each post I've read isn't exactly true. I wish I knew how to use a computer better but here goes....

    A licensed, registered guide does not need a 135 cert. to fly his clients

    i mentioned in the original post he didn't have a guide license either. just a dude with a cub from the lower 48 hauling hunters for a guide was the way it was laid out. who cares, they're out of alaska in a month or two with their $, right?

    However, he does need a commercial pilots rating

    negative, can be a private pilot with 500 AK hours. Believe it!! You may be riding with a
    rookie on that big hunt.


    You do understand that "incidental" is only relevant to the individual flying pilot don't you?

    Incidental flying does not apply to the "business" of selling hunts or fishing trips. If a guide sells a fishing or hunting trip and is not the pilot AND the guide then the flight operation can not be considered "incidental" to the flying pilot.

    The business of selling resources; where the contracting person is not both the pilot AND the guide is the "business" of a booking agent or outfitter.

    Neither a booking agent nor an outfitter can conduct "incidental" flight operations. Both rely on employed or contracted pilots and guides; people paid to either fly or to guide.

    Incidental applies only to the interest of the person flying.

    ABSOLUTELY RIGHT ON ALL ACCOUNTS. THIS IS WHERE IT JUST PEEVES ME BECAUSE I DON'T THINK THIS IS HOW ALOT OF FOLKS ARE PLAYING. HOPE THEY ALL GET CAUGHT!!
    I PLAY BY THE RULES. IT ISN'T THAT HARD BUT YOU CAN'T SLOP YOUR WAY AROUND EITHER.

    Likewise, a pilot working for a reg. guide does not need a 135 cert either.
    Nope; you are wrong.


    I disagree (if he has an asst. guide license). Read the statutes. Maybe that changed since you last looked. You'll see it says a guide can have the assistant contracted on that hunt haul'em. Not in those exact words, of course. IE Reg Guide contracts his assistant to do a 1x1 sheep hunt. Assistant haul himself, hunter and gear into camp from the road system to meet the guide and they all commence to hunting. That assistant is on contract for that hunter for that species for those dates. Of course a-holes bend and break this every year. Betcha a coke.

    I think I'm gonna turn into a nark, man. It just infuriates me when people cheat their way through life. Guiding laws. Game laws. These jack holes are stealing sheep or whatever from my son as he gets old enough to hunt, ya know!!
    We need to run every guide out who bends and breaks the regs. I work for and know several awesome guides who are straight shooters but I know about as may who aren't. Sorry this turned into a little rant.

  16. #16

    Default the States prememtive regulations

    Quote Originally Posted by AK-HUNT View Post
    I challenge each of you to read the regulations/statutes that cover guides. Some of each post I've read isn't exactly true. I wish I knew how to use a computer better but here goes....
    What folks need to do is understand is that the State (and especially the Commercial Hunting Regulations) have absolutely NO AUTHORITY to define what is incidental or who is qualified or establish the qualifications necessary to conduct ANY flight operation. The key is to understand the FAR's and comply realizing that each and every flight operation must be in compliance with those regs.

    Incidental flying does not apply to the "business" of selling hunts or fishing trips. If a guide sells a fishing or hunting trip and is not the pilot AND the guide then the flight operation can not be considered "incidental" to the flying pilot.

    The business of selling resources; where the contracting person is not both the pilot AND the guide is the "business" of a booking agent or outfitter.

    Neither a booking agent nor an outfitter can conduct "incidental" flight operations. Both rely on employed or contracted pilots and guides; people paid to either fly or to guide.

    Incidental applies only to the interest of the person flying.

    ABSOLUTELY RIGHT ON ALL ACCOUNTS. THIS IS WHERE IT JUST PEEVES ME BECAUSE I DON'T THINK THIS IS HOW ALOT OF FOLKS ARE PLAYING. HOPE THEY ALL GET CAUGHT!!
    I PLAY BY THE RULES. IT ISN'T THAT HARD BUT YOU CAN'T SLOP YOUR WAY AROUND EITHER.

    Likewise, a pilot working for a reg. guide does not need a 135 cert either.
    Nope; you are wrong.


    Quote Originally Posted by AK-HUNT View Post
    I disagree (if he has an asst. guide license). Read the statutes.
    NOPE; don't need to read them. Does a wildlife viewing guide get his orders form the State regulations for wildlife viewing guides. NO there are not any. The wildlife viewing guide gets his "rules" from the FAR's. So do every other KIND of guide. Right now it is only "hunting guides who meet any standard and it is only hunting guides who INVENTED ASSISTANT GUIDES and the FAR's don't care about it.

    The State can not write any regulation that defines who can conduct a flight operation.

    Quote Originally Posted by AK-HUNT View Post
    Maybe that changed since you last looked.
    Sure; they changed it to say "any class of guide" and all that does is blow smoke...it don't mean a thing when it comes to the test as to whether the flight is part 91 or part 135. It don't mean a thing.


    Quote Originally Posted by AK-HUNT View Post
    Betcha a coke.
    Raise you to a six pack of coke

    The State has established guide licensing for hunting guides and in setting up two classes of guides; 1) class is Registered guides and the other is the "class" of Assistant Guides/Class A guides, neither of these class of guides are permitted, by State regulations, to sell the resource or provide accommodations in the field.

    Assistants guides and class A guides are "hired, employed or contracted"; however you want to look at it to guide. Guiding is an occupation that takes place in the field and Assistant guides and class A guides have not; by the States own definition reached the journeyman level of a "guide. An Assistant or Class A guide license does not carry with it the privlidge to sell the resource or provide accommodations in the field. Both of which are necessary elements to "testing" the incidental provisions within the FAR's.

    When flying is involved, only the person who contracted the hunt may conduct the flight operation. That person must guide the hunt AND provide the accommodations to have ANY chance of falling under the part 91 provisions.

    Just look at wildlife viewing guides again and you will understand it.

    There is no magic "HUNTING guide" license that somehow includes all the provisions necessary to pass the "what is incidental flying" test.

    Remember, the Assistant is NOT providing any accommodations either; and the State regs specifically prevent Assistants from providing any services like that. Accommodations are a part of the "test" as to whether the flying can be considered "incidental. Assistants have only an occupation to provide a guide service in the field...nothing more.

    It works the same for registered guides hired to hunt for other guides. The registered guide (who is not contracted to the client but to the other guide) is not supplying any accommodations.

    The contracting guide (the one who sold the hunt to the client) provides (includes) the accommodations and if the flying pilot is not providing accommodations then the flight operation just can not magically pass the test; no matter what the State Regs say.

    Quote Originally Posted by AK-HUNT View Post
    I think I'm gonna turn into a nark, man. It just infuriates me when people cheat their way through life. Guiding laws. Game laws. These jack holes are stealing sheep or whatever from my son as he gets old enough to hunt, ya know!!
    We need to run every guide out who bends and breaks the regs. I work for and know several awesome guides who are straight shooters but I know about as may who aren't. Sorry this turned into a little rant.
    Why don't you (join others and) think about writing to the Ombudsman. File a formal complaint regarding the abuses by the commercial hunting industry carried out through the interpretation and the implementation of the regulations created by the Big Game Commercial Services Board. It will help.

    I would be happy to help you or anyone else interested in filing a complaint with the Ombudsman's office.


  17. #17
    Member kioti's Avatar
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    Default too much talk about one man

    Time to talk about somebody new......... Really Goose? started this with a few questions, Which I dont think he really ever ask?? Now Vanny is being dragged thru the muck. NOW I'm not for nor against, but what I dont like is all the talk behind someones back. As for legal to fly for guide as Asst Guide, final question is? Who owns the airplane? If the guide owns it All is well......if not then thats a whole new can of worms. Sure theres a way around everything....... but is it worth the trouble should things go bad,
    and the whole world is coming after you?? It's for you to decide.
    Goose, be careful.....

  18. #18
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    Default Way off the mark...

    Kioti, I think the conversation has left Vanning a long time ago.
    Avalanche, this is a discussion we've had before, so I won't get long winded. You are completely disreguarding an entire set of state statutes, basically because you want to. It is not my or your decision whether the statutes and regulations are correct. It is our job to follow them. Well, that's how I see it. If you want to disreguard them fine.
    If the state says has a full set of rules (that YOU don't need to read, just mis-quote) that govern an operation, then its the citizens responsibility to follow them. OR get them changed and follow them till they are.
    Your theoretical argument doesn't hold water. To guide this sheep hunter I have to fly up river x and land there. Have to fly home to end the guided hunt. That's the facts. The flying was incidental to the sheep hunt. That's per regulation.
    You may not like it. But that's it. Don't like it or change the rules.
    I agree with you; the FAA and State don't mirror each other perfectly but there are allowances in the FAR's for this too.
    Hey, get the guiding statutes changed if you want. But you have a very theoretical argument (that I MAY agree with parts of.) However, I am trying to talk in real time and regulations. Not how a perfect world would be. You are just white noise when you start that. I think you summed it up when you said you don't need to read the regs. If you aren't living by them, then what is the conversation about again??
    Answer me this, since this seems to be the focus of you time: Are you a guide? Are you a 135 cert holder who wants more business? What is your professional experience with this system.

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    Default

    Oh man, the Part 135 argument again? lol To try and explain one last time......Part 135 governs Operating Reqirements: Commuter and on-demand flights. A guided hunt is not a commuter or on-demand flight it is incidental transportation for the hunt. Being incidental even a private pilot can fly for hire or compensation under FAR Part 61 61.113

    Here it is:
    61.113 Private pilot privileges and limitations: Pilot in command.
    top
    (a) Except as provided in paragraphs (b) through (g) of this section, no person who holds a private pilot
    certificate may act as pilot in command of an aircraft that is carrying passengers or property for
    compensation or hire; nor may that person, for compensation or hire, act as pilot in command of an
    aircraft.
    (b) A private pilot may, for compensation or hire, act as pilot in command of an aircraft in connection
    with any business or employment if:
    (1) The flight is only incidental to that business or employment; and
    (2) The aircraft does not carry passengers or property for compensation or hire.

    You see, it is an FAA reg and not only a state reg created by the BGCSB nor does it only apply to a guide who is flying and personally guiding the client as has been suggested. A private pilot employed by a guide service can legally be hired to pilot an aircraft for that business. You only have to have a commercial rating to fly 125 and 135 operations. You would also need an instrument rating to carry passengers more than 50nm from point of departure and in IFR and night flights for a 125 or 135 operation.

  20. #20

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Tigermusky View Post
    .....A guided hunt is not a commuter or on-demand flight it is incidental transportation for the hunt.
    When we are talking about one or A guided hunt that includes some flying that is one thing. When we are talking about what is happening in Alaska with guides it is commercial flying.

    The FAA looks at each individual flight operation for compliance for that specific flight for that specific pilot.

    Who is paying the 'cost' of that flight operation and the frequency of the flight operations are relevant to the FAA's determination of whether the flight is "incidental" or a commercial flight.

    A client pays his money to A contracting guide. This contract includes accommodations, transportation and in the field guide services. The "primary business interest" of the contract is what happens in the field; that is guiding.

    When this client/contracting scenario's begins repeating it's self over and over it moves into another realm; no longer the primary business interest of the contracted guide....you know; the guy who is deliberately abusing the system and selling more hunts than he can guide and somehow engaging in flight operations required to support what is now the business of a booking agent or an outfitter.

    The primary business interest of booking agents and of outfitters is NOT guiding. Booking agents and I will say 'outfitters' are not required to be guides to sell hunts. "Outfitted hunts" are not guided hunts. Transportation in not incidental in nature to the primary business interest of booking agents and outfitters.

    It is clear that if it is not the contracted guide flying the client OR if the pilot flying is not the person guiding the client then it is a carry for hire operation.

    There is nothing incidental about A guided hunt when pilots are hired or compensated to "fly" trip after trip; or for that matter when a person with an occupational license to guide SELLS more hunts than he can guide and then hires people to conduct the hunts and all the contracted guide does is fly.......flying is no longer incidental to the primary business interest of the flying pilot.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tigermusky View Post
    .A private pilot employed by a guide service can legally be hired to pilot an aircraft for that business.


    It is clear that if it is not the contracted guide flying the client OR if the pilot flying is not the person guiding the clientthen it is a carry for hire operation.


    A "guide" license is an occupational license; a standard set by the State to permit that person to provide a legal way to sell public resources and provide field service defined as "guiding" for compensation.

    Assistant guides may not provide accommodations; sell the resources or contract hunts; flying for an assistant guide is not incidental in nature.


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